Suggestion about the hive score.

KaydexKaydex Iceland Join Date: 2016-01-02 Member: 210761Members Posts: 12 Fully active user
From what I've seen in game is that the hive skill is not what makes you good, it's the skill it self. From my opinion I'd say it would be more balanced if the Hive score goes through K/d instead of winning. There are some players struggling to get up on hive score because they have a good score but his team isn't as experienced as him and he looses points. The current usage of the hive score is too complicated and unbalanced because it goes through win rating. All I am saying is that this is just a suggestion and there need's to be a little bit of a balanced skill level so people know and actually get shuffled to the right team. Maybe it's okey to have like 20-30% as the winning rate to effect on the hive score but I'd recommend mainly to have it on Kill/death ratio because that is based on the character's skill level which the hive was probably made to tell that the player is experienced and a good player.

This is my first suggestion so feel free to say anything about this, be open and happy new year :)
-Kaydex

Comments

  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 822 Advanced user
    edited January 2016
    We had that already before hiveoverhaul (well it used "scores"). It was horrible. Also what about commanders, Gorges, the guy building stuff and wielding everyone, biting res, leading the team, Fades amassing kills, Skulks dieing like flies, Marine burning structures and upgrades down, the Skulk scout marking everyone with parasite, the "one" Gorge tunnel / PG, ... There's so many playstyles in this game that are not sufficiently expressed with k/d or scores. Those only lead to more rookie stomp.
    There are some players struggling to get up on hive score because they have a good score but his team isn't as experienced as him and he looses points
    Its a team effort. Time to teach inexperienced players.
    Warforce17 wrote: »
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    matso wrote: »
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  • KaydexKaydex Iceland Join Date: 2016-01-02 Member: 210761Members Posts: 12 Fully active user
    edited January 2016
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    We had that already before hiveoverhaul (well it used "scores"). It was horrible. Also what about commanders, Gorges, the guy building stuff and wielding everyone, biting res, leading the team, Fades amassing kills, Skulks dieing like flies, Marine burning structures and upgrades down, the Skulk scout marking everyone with parasite, the "one" Gorge tunnel / PG, ... There's so many playstyles in this game that are not sufficiently expressed with k/d or scores. Those only lead to more rookie stomp.

    I also had that idea but forgot to mention it, but yeah people who takes care of structures and player damage should be rated higher, I would understand that this is a complicated system but I still think there should be putting in a little more thinking to the balance of the hive score.
  • videoPvideoP Join Date: 2014-04-06 Member: 195209Members Posts: 11 Fully active user
    edited January 2016
    hive score should be replaced with 4 separate scores: marine comm elo, alien comm elo, alien elo, marine elo. ideally they could implement a system where you can decide on commanders before the shuffle so you can use the proper elo. next, change in elo after each round should be scaled by your position on your teams scoreboard.

    scaling the elo change would be much less important in a better designed game btw. the problem is that giving 1 player (the commander) so much responsibility means that team win/loss is really out of a players hands sometimes, especially with mechanics like base rushing (e.g. failing to beacon, etc). so you need to look at other factors (their individual performance).

    finally, make the scoring a bit better so your spot on the scoreboard is more reflective of your contributions. for example, a gorge having built a hive should give more points than a gorge having built a hydra.

    the current system is really bad and is a step backwards from what ns2stats had several years ago.

    Post edited by videoP on
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    Kaydex wrote: »
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    We had that already before hiveoverhaul (well it used "scores"). It was horrible. Also what about commanders, Gorges, the guy building stuff and wielding everyone, biting res, leading the team, Fades amassing kills, Skulks dieing like flies, Marine burning structures and upgrades down, the Skulk scout marking everyone with parasite, the "one" Gorge tunnel / PG, ... There's so many playstyles in this game that are not sufficiently expressed with k/d or scores. Those only lead to more rookie stomp.

    I also had that idea but forgot to mention it, but yeah people who takes care of structures and player damage should be rated higher, I would understand that this is a complicated system but I still think there should be putting in a little more thinking to the balance of the hive score.
    And how do you quantify people with good leadership skills, people with solid laneblocking knowledge, people with good communication, good strategies or any unforeseen tactic and innovative play?

    Let me sum up ELO this way:

    Anything, that you perceive as a skill worth recording. Does not matter, if it does not manifest itself, in the ability to complete the win conditions. Therefore, if a skill, like fragging, does not manifest itself in your winrate. Then you should re-evaluate the true impact of k/d.
    SupaFred_INTER_Yojimbocoolitic
  • KaydexKaydex Iceland Join Date: 2016-01-02 Member: 210761Members Posts: 12 Fully active user
    Lambo wrote: »
    omg the public players are slowly catching on, it's a miracle.

    what do you mean?
  • RammlerRammler Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 192 Advanced user
    I can understand the point of the thread-opener. i started with 1320 hivestats today. i ended with 1260 at the end of the day. but did i become worse than in the morning? i dont think so. the last game was very frustrating. top scorer in the marine team and dominating the aliens. i saved phase gates, killed higher lifeforms and simply did a fantastic job. than the aliens base rushed us and they won. so i lost -20 hive. i played a fantastic round, but because of 1 commander not able to beacon i lost 20 hive? thats not fair imo.

    the hive skill only affects the team and not the single player. i hate stacking and always try too balance a game. but with a lot of rookies this days my hive skills falls although i do a great job.
    wya3p5tg.png
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,754 Advanced user
    I think it needs repeating here, but I hate that it is called hive skill. The number in no way is your skill. It is a value used to predict if you will win or lose. At best it loosely correlates with skill.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    2coughcoolitic
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,025 Advanced user
    edited January 2016
    Nordic wrote: »
    I think it needs repeating here, but I hate that it is called hive skill. The number in no way is your skill. It is a value used to predict if you will win or lose. At best it loosely correlates with skill.
    Perhaps we should just call it what it is at this point, it's not as though elo is unheard of in online multiplayer games these days. Skill is definitely more confusing than just caLling it elo rating.

    Edit: not to mention hive skill and hive level are confusing to most new players I encounter. Call it hive elo maybe?
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    I think it needs repeating here, but I hate that it is called hive skill. The number in no way is your skill. It is a value used to predict if you will win or lose. At best it loosely correlates with skill.
    If you think any system could ever represent your "skill" with a number in the first place, that is your faulty assumption. It is the best correlation for skill that there is, but you simply cannot quantify such an abstract concept.

    Any "skill" that doesn't manifest in your chance to win, is a worthless skill. For example, you could give players a number based on how good they are at trickjumps. Certainly that is a difficult skill to perform. But they rarely win you games, so it's a relatively worthless skill (I write this as a lover of trickjumps).
    For that reason I think it's reasonable to call it hive skill, well-knowing of the fact that it doesn't capture all categories of skill.

    I wouldn't object to renaming it "hive elo" or what ever - which people seem to do colloquially anyway. But honestly, hive skill is perfectly descriptive imo.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,754 Advanced user
    edited January 2016
    I don't like it being called hive skill because people then make false assumptions based on its name.

    I agree that any skill that does not manifest itself in your chance to win is not a skill at all in ns2. But even then, win loss rate only correlates with your skill value at .651.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,247 Advanced user
    Hive skill lottery.....? Hive lottery....? Skill lottery??? :smiley:
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
  • RammlerRammler Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 192 Advanced user
    Its not about the name, its about the effect on the gameplay. teams are balanced with the hive skill. There are some people with hive skill 2000+ that play weaker than guys with 1100. Some people make new accounts and have hive skills with 1000 but stomp the whole server. so teams that look even with hive based shuffle are far away from even sometimes.

    I personaly don't care if my Hive Skill is 1000 or 4000 but the hive skill is a number that team balance is based on. So hive skill should measure the skill better. and when you don't want to give the hive skill such a big attention you should not base the shuffle-function on it.
    wya3p5tg.png
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 955 Advanced user
    IIRC the CS:GO skill rating works in a way that it considers if you win or lose and how often you were the MVP of a round (and maybe kills?). The game rates you MVP by either doing most kills or other game important plays like planting/defusing the bomb. Seems a bit unfair sometimes because a player might frag 3 enemies and you just defuse the bomb (holding a button for 10 seconds) and he gets rated as MVP... so which player showed more skill in a round... but anyway maybe ns2 should check like in timespamps of 5 minutes who was the most effective player in those 5 minutes by either doing alot of kills or dealing much pdamage/sdamage, building, healing or whatever. So the ELO would consider win/loss and the amount of MVP points you got in a round (which would bring us to the same question: how would you rate someone as MVP?)
    return to zero
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,754 Advanced user
    To clear up a few more misconceptions. Players who start new today start with a hive skill of 0. Players who started with a hive skill of 1000 may or may not be rookies. The players who started at 1000 skill are returning players that had played last around the time hive was created. You can not make a new account and have a hive skill of 1000.

    Competitive and gather players often have their hive skill value incredibly off because they lose far more often in gathers than they would in pubs.

    The hive system works very similarly to the LOL system.
    https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide

    Also, hive 2.0 is currently being worked on and I expect it to fix a lot of the problems concerning hive.

    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
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