Rookies Learning Maps: Streamlining and effects on learning curve
Frozen
New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
EDIT: Title change to direct thread. This is about ROOKIES learning ANY maps. This is NOT about veterans learning new maps. If we help rookies learn maps it may have a helpful side-effect of learning the game differently and may open veterans to new maps as well. But PLEASE focus on ROOKIES.
The point of this thread is to start a discussion on how rookies can learn maps more effectively and more quickly while they are playing. I have a personal belief that this is the most restrictive part of the game in that it directly effects a player's ability to learn the game. If I play a game with people averaging 2000 hours on a map they haven't played, for 80% of them everything they think they understand about the game goes out the window. Everyone follows each-other, no one lane blocks effectively, etc. Doing these things should be a natural part of your knowledge of the game based on a short look at a new mini-map.
However, the reality is that a majority of players' ability to play effectively is their intimate knowledge of a map (see: tram, veil, summit). Not only does this increase the learning curve, but it also prohibits new maps from getting much traction, as people are not in tune with the game itself as much as the map.
tl;dr: People often know how to play ns2_tram, but not NS2.
I decided to make this thread primarily because of the last couple days playing Rainbow Six: Siege with some good NS2 players. After about 10 matches I'm already better at playing even though I don't know the maps much at all. So, when the map knowledge starts coming I'll know how to play the game before the maps, which theoretically opens me to play effectively on any map.
In NS2 I know there's some exceptions like ns2_derelict. I tried, and tried, and just couldn't break the 95% marine wins, it just didn't work. ns2_eclipse I literally got to play almost no rounds on, so there's this opinion that the map is bad but I don't think anyone even gave it a real chance on release, let alone with the current build. I don't think that's fair to the mappers, or the community.
So how can we better teach new players, and veteran players how to learn a map? Or how to learn the game without a map?
The point of this thread is to start a discussion on how rookies can learn maps more effectively and more quickly while they are playing. I have a personal belief that this is the most restrictive part of the game in that it directly effects a player's ability to learn the game. If I play a game with people averaging 2000 hours on a map they haven't played, for 80% of them everything they think they understand about the game goes out the window. Everyone follows each-other, no one lane blocks effectively, etc. Doing these things should be a natural part of your knowledge of the game based on a short look at a new mini-map.
However, the reality is that a majority of players' ability to play effectively is their intimate knowledge of a map (see: tram, veil, summit). Not only does this increase the learning curve, but it also prohibits new maps from getting much traction, as people are not in tune with the game itself as much as the map.
tl;dr: People often know how to play ns2_tram, but not NS2.
I decided to make this thread primarily because of the last couple days playing Rainbow Six: Siege with some good NS2 players. After about 10 matches I'm already better at playing even though I don't know the maps much at all. So, when the map knowledge starts coming I'll know how to play the game before the maps, which theoretically opens me to play effectively on any map.
In NS2 I know there's some exceptions like ns2_derelict. I tried, and tried, and just couldn't break the 95% marine wins, it just didn't work. ns2_eclipse I literally got to play almost no rounds on, so there's this opinion that the map is bad but I don't think anyone even gave it a real chance on release, let alone with the current build. I don't think that's fair to the mappers, or the community.
So how can we better teach new players, and veteran players how to learn a map? Or how to learn the game without a map?
Comments
The waypoint system DOES NOT do a good enough job of this.
This one:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=108732851&
I agree (Damn i must be ill or something). The problem isn't in the maps; it's in the players. Humans in general, prefer routine because it feels safer.
I would add that a modder have to face another thing. Any new OFFICIAL content is welcomed. Any new CUSTOM content has a "bad quality" sticker on the neck. It is deserved for most of the productions in other games. But it's not the case in NS as it is relatively easy to make good (as beautiful) stuff if you know your way around.
On top of that most following the same layout wich is based on summit.
I havent heard of any game that tried to "teach" players a map.
You jump in, running around and after 3-4 rounds you become an idea.
Another 2-3 rounds and you know the map.
This is how to learn maps works, in EVERY shooter.
The real problem is that players dont use the minimap often.
If i play a community map wich i havent played before, i press c very often.
Normally often but in unknown maps very often.
After 3 rounds i can navigate without this c spam.
When im sitting in the spawnqueue i press c to see whats going on and where to ge next.
New players only following the one in front of them, cause he knows the way for sure.
Problem is, that the one in front has no clue either.
Thats where the lemming-packs come from.
Btw, the game has waypoints.
So people can follow a blue line, how simple is that?
This is what we need to focus on for the thread. We need to get new players to make the meta their routine, instead of the map layout. I think this could be helped by giving clear, dynamic direction to new players on the floor of maps on where they can go. Give them concrete choices of what they can do. Build Res A or Defend Res B, make a choice. Weld teammate 3. Etc.
You're not going to get people, new or vet, to like new maps if they feel like a new game that they're terrible at. So I 100% agree with above comments, they just aren't constructive to the future @SamusDroid .
It's not impossible to recognize lanes from a first look at a minimap, just not something that the game teaches dynamically without teammates' help.
Waypoints are not helpful if the player isn't listening to the comm. They're not clear on routing, and they're also annoying. They also don't exist in the way they need to if the comm doesn't use them. They don't even appear on the minimap.
Maybe you could utilize 1-2 different colors (at most, we don't want rainbow HUDs!) to denote defend or attack, and make the icons automatically show up when a harvester is attacked or when an enemy RT is spotted.
This removes some of the usefulness of parasiting an RT, but I think that's a fine trade off to make automatic since so few non-veterans do that, and parasite is still greatly effective elsewhere.
This not only reinforces how to play the game (RTs!) but also assists in navigating somewhat. Combine it with a a more clear and transparent map that correlates with the floating icons for greater affect.
Im sure the other marine is following that marine instead of saving the rt.
Thats the problem if you tell people nonstop:
Never run around alone.
For me it looks like people dont understand the RTs part of the game and they didnt realize how important harvesters and RTs are.
Thats why rookies never harassing harvesters.
It looks like they dont understand that you slow down the aliens wth that.
If you do that, you are an useless rambo in there view. Cause you are alone and marines have to be in a group.
You're commenting as though rookies should just know shit. Put forward an idea to help. Obviously the ideas posted so far can incorporate attacking close alien harvesters as well. Even if it includes the need to find them first. A path could tell a rookie go this way to scout the area for aliens RTs..
Without skill based servers the whole simplify discussion is useless.
And i think a "Structure under attack" and a red blinking building on the map should be warning enough.
Jesus, there people out there who dont care that a RT is getting attacked 5 meter beside them.
Whats coming next.
We have to explain how a RTs game work?
And then?
How you move your mouse?
Its fine that we simplifying and explaining more stuff for rookies.
But this discussion is about teaching rookies the map.
Press C and you see the map.
Things can be so simple.
Just let people play against there skill level, the rest comes by its own.
Its like "Oh my god, the game is losing so many players. we need ways to teach and hold new ones" but you forget why they leave.
They getting stomped by vets and/or they getting harrassed by vets who cant believe that 5 skulks cant kill a single marine.
No cool path to an extractor would change this aslong players with over 2000hrs play against new ones.
In order to do the "meta" you describe, they will have to learn what a RT is good for and the importance of it. And other basic things of course. There lies the huge wall (I thinking about a mountain).
The first thing to do is to get them out of the "space shooter box". When you do that you can make them play in any maps as for any NS game.
They will change their behavior as they learn the NS ways.
From shooting the enemy until the last one (death match, mostly)
To making sure to cripple the opponent strategy by any means (many ways) and then appreciate a well done roasted meat.
So basically your call for making them experience new maps is fighting the same reason that make them clueless in the first place. This is for rookies. The other category; "the vets" will avoid playing new maps for reasons already mentioned. Are they good NS player? Not my place to tell.
When you solve the first problem you solve the other. With the exception/problem of the "not official sticker" of course.
Simply put : You know the best players can go in any map (at least try) because they know what to do. As @dePARA said if you open the map you will do the proper things. You may fail 1,2 maybe 3 times but in the end you get there faster at each iteration.
What you seek is to make the rookies get it on the spot. Eventually bypassing the necessary learning process that NS require. I don't think it will ever work in NS. At some point you have to stop for a while and learn. There's no better training for me but to open the map privately and study it a little before getting online.
It's a way of thinking. It's hard to teach to gamers that have as a first reflex to connect to a server and to shoot the enemy like in a death match.
Making things "clearer" ? I'm not sure the solution lies in visual effects. Maybe it's gonna help, or maybe people will ignore it.
Look at the League of Legends Dominion minimap as an example, which clearly shows both team's map dominance (eg 2 points vs 3 points captured).
Most maps that have been added to the game are just straight out nowhere near as good as the standards(tram,summit,veil). People don't have much against learning new maps. The map itself is just not good.
Standards ? You mean official ?
If so :
If it is about the Trinity (T/S/V). Well... take a look again.
- NS2_Veil is one of the worst considering the strategy layer... Enough to provide the worst NS2 experience for any rookie.
- NS2_Summit: "Pls Alien god let's not have Atrium, we all crossed our ... our claws... pls not Atrium."
- NS2_Tram: "Not Server, please nooooo!!!".
All maps have problems.There are also some people that can't stand these 3 anymore. Some have more arguments than "i'm bored" and what i just suggest. And i find them to be quite logic and sound.
To be honest, in terms of technical quality; i find some custom maps to be better polished than official content. You can't check it by yourself with the Spark editor.
I guess it's a matter of opinion.
Mappng in ns2 is difficult, not from a creating something standpoint but from making something playable. In most games especially dm or tdm the teams are not asymetrical, the rooms can pretty much be as interesting as you like. But in ns2 you have to constantly think about, layout room distance, view distance room height, where all the cover is placed and the general flow of the map. Its very hard to make a good map for ns2 and very very hard to make a map that comp players would enjoy. I mean mineshaft, docking, descent, biodome and derelict all good maps but all arent great comp maps.
Wich is for summit aka descent aka biodome and others with the same layout:
Techpoint-Resnode-techpoint and so on
If you know summit you know half of the mappool cause same layout.
Descent and Biodome are a comp maps btw.
Mineshaft and Docking have some balance issues wich doesnt affect pub so much.
Its just to easy to lockdown the aliens as marines there.
Map tips show the map name, the map layout with room names, and map specific tips. The tips include map strategies like capture double res room, defend/capture crossroads, know the names of the 5/6 tech points, it's good to have a phasegate/tunnel in crossroads, control 3 tech points to make a victory certain, atrium is not a good starting location, etc.