Harvester Armor Decay
IronHorse
Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I would like some feedback on my Harvester decay idea :
The problem : (Assuming evenly skilled teams) Rounds are too easily predicted and unforgiving / demoralizing due to compounding & snowballing mechanics. This is moreso the case against a strong alien team mid to late game.
The proposed solution: Harvester Armor Decay
Marines in particular have a much tougher time to achieve comebacks as the round goes on, compared to aliens.
Statistically, as a round continues, aliens have a much higher probability of winning.. this is due to multiple factors, from increased PvE, mobility, Tres eggs, higher lifeforms, Tunnels and Bile bomb.
Sneaky Phase Gates just aren't as viable as they could be, are easily prevented, and Tier 3 tech for marines often come too late.
I recommend removing 22% eHP of Harvesters over the course of 6 minutes by removing their armor incrementally. Their armor would be fully removed just before the mid game begins, to allow the potential for a turn of events.
(works throughout the round during other stages as well, like just before Onos timings)
I believe that this is enough to maintain a sense of tension by undoing some of that slippery slope that creates unnecessary advantages... it would keep the game more interesting and engaging until the very end.
FYI Armor accounts for 22% of total eHP for both harvesters and extractors. (almost identically)
This gives exactly a 6 second advantage at most to any attacking force on a completely decayed Alien Harvester. (keep in mind though, it won't always be entirely decayed)
Armor decay only begins after the harvester is built.
This is easily communicated to players in that
It doesn't promote a perceived "cheap" mechanic, (like Bile Bomb is accused of) as it requires the meta game to be played, (so it assists in training as well) and comes with wonderful trade offs like if a team is too aggressive they won't be laning or repairing their back res, and may not even be able to respond in time if fully decayed.
Aliens are already more than equipped to deal with repairing of RTs, (healspray, mucous, crags, hives, distance to RTs, lower RT count), marines need the buff, and aliens already have widely employed comeback mechanics like BB.
This does not mean that a team will be busy with "upkeep" necessarily!! .. as it may be deemed not impactful enough to stop and heal every time based on circumstance, especially considering the tradeoffs. (positioning)
Another benefit to this is slightly less PvE..
Most important to remember is that this makes a strong winning alien team potentially fragile.. it makes no guarantees as it can be remedied with a trade off in positioning or Tres.
But the possibility of being able to more easily contest their assured victory mid to late game could really assist in the demoralizing scenarios that occur.
Thoughts?
Edit: Changed time to 6 minutes, occurring immediately upon being built
The problem : (Assuming evenly skilled teams) Rounds are too easily predicted and unforgiving / demoralizing due to compounding & snowballing mechanics. This is moreso the case against a strong alien team mid to late game.
The proposed solution: Harvester Armor Decay
Marines in particular have a much tougher time to achieve comebacks as the round goes on, compared to aliens.
Statistically, as a round continues, aliens have a much higher probability of winning.. this is due to multiple factors, from increased PvE, mobility, Tres eggs, higher lifeforms, Tunnels and Bile bomb.
Sneaky Phase Gates just aren't as viable as they could be, are easily prevented, and Tier 3 tech for marines often come too late.
I recommend removing 22% eHP of Harvesters over the course of 6 minutes by removing their armor incrementally. Their armor would be fully removed just before the mid game begins, to allow the potential for a turn of events.
(works throughout the round during other stages as well, like just before Onos timings)
I believe that this is enough to maintain a sense of tension by undoing some of that slippery slope that creates unnecessary advantages... it would keep the game more interesting and engaging until the very end.
FYI Armor accounts for 22% of total eHP for both harvesters and extractors. (almost identically)
This gives exactly a 6 second advantage at most to any attacking force on a completely decayed Alien Harvester. (keep in mind though, it won't always be entirely decayed)
Armor decay only begins after the harvester is built.
This is easily communicated to players in that
- Almost every RTS game has decay mechanics and upkeep
- Fits alien theme of organics / maturity
- It is easily readable just by looking at the structure, for both commanders and ground players
- A naturally damaged RT does not indicate anything different than it does now if the team has been properly covering lanes (no one asks why an RT is damaged when passing by it)
- We can color / shade fully decayed RTs if it's desired for distanced readability
It doesn't promote a perceived "cheap" mechanic, (like Bile Bomb is accused of) as it requires the meta game to be played, (so it assists in training as well) and comes with wonderful trade offs like if a team is too aggressive they won't be laning or repairing their back res, and may not even be able to respond in time if fully decayed.
Aliens are already more than equipped to deal with repairing of RTs, (healspray, mucous, crags, hives, distance to RTs, lower RT count), marines need the buff, and aliens already have widely employed comeback mechanics like BB.
This does not mean that a team will be busy with "upkeep" necessarily!! .. as it may be deemed not impactful enough to stop and heal every time based on circumstance, especially considering the tradeoffs. (positioning)
Another benefit to this is slightly less PvE..
Most important to remember is that this makes a strong winning alien team potentially fragile.. it makes no guarantees as it can be remedied with a trade off in positioning or Tres.
But the possibility of being able to more easily contest their assured victory mid to late game could really assist in the demoralizing scenarios that occur.
Thoughts?
Edit: Changed time to 6 minutes, occurring immediately upon being built
Comments
I also think it could be interesting to have "old" res nodes lower their production at the same time as the health is decaying unless a gorge, crag, or drifter heals them. That provides a temporary effect (lowered production) in addition to a permanent effect (lowered health), and would give late game khamms and gorges more to do and increase the gardening theme of the alien design.
if not: i'd like to point out that all alien structures increase their effective health (usually with armor) over time while maturing!
so i strongly disagree that a harvester armor decay is easily communicated to players as it will be the exact opposite of the current rule.
ns2 is already filled with a lot of not-so-obvious mechanics, making it less newbie-friendly. hopefully it can be avoided adding a new one when solving the issue you described.
Would crags need to be minimally buffed to compensate?
Aliens are the mobile team, and lerks and fades are fast classes. The goal of havester armor decay is to give marines a chance to take some map control back if aliens push too hard. Fades would come too late, but I would be worried that lerks may be able to defend too well. That 6 seconds might not be enough.
I would also be worried that it would buff early game marines too much, but that may not be the case with alien win rate
Have you found someone to mod this in yet? I would like to play some games with it.
And if marines were able to take the RT, they'd more than likely take the crag, too.. (they typically target it first) which means it is an economic risk to try to prevent the decay through Tres.
It'd be more effective for an active gorge to maintain the old res, periodically. Given another role to gorges.
It is enough to begin testing with, at least. We can always adjust. (timing and whether HP is affected)
Does not buff early game marines because it does not begin the decay until maturation is reached, meaning that the fully decayed naturals won't occur until somewhere around 8 minutes into a match - mid game. Early game is not influenced at all.
Assuming a harvester goes up instantly (which it does not) + maturation of 210 sec + 5 minute decay = 8.5 minutes
Nope, and as stated the decay only begins after full maturation is achieved. That full maturation value is accounted for in my calculations.(~22%)
While this may see initially as a hidden mechanic, it's really not - it's communicated in multiple ways and really the only hurdle is that it is a new mechanic..
Something that almost isn't that important to really note, either.. considering how often you already see damaged RTs in game and no one stops to ask why - they either pass by or repair it.
@remi My only concern with throwing the whole sink in, is that A) that would certainly be uncommunicated to players, and B ) it may be compounding ontop of this change.
Best to try this first and see if it needs more, if so, then we should look into that imo
Edit: I've adjusted the OP after realizing I had not accounted for maturation time accurately. Assuming a harvester goes up instantly (which it does not) + maturation of 210 sec + 5 minute decay = 8.5 minutes
So I have changed it to 3 minutes, which makes a harvester fully decay around the 7 minute mark when fades come out. (assuming a gorge is building)
How long does it take to kill with more than one marine? My mental math may be fuzzy, but if two marines were killing a harvester wouldn't the additional speed to kill be cut in half. So that a fully decayed harvester would be killed 3 seconds faster by two marines.
If lerks are ready at about 2-3 minutes, and fades are ready at about 6-7 minutes how does that fit into the decay timings?
If tested I would wonder how much an effect a partially decayed harvester had on the game. So at half decay it would be 3 seconds faster to kill. How does that effect things.
Are aliens really in need of a nerf? This assumes that the aliens have an advantaged position over the marines, but what if/when they don't? The marines get to drive the knife in deeper and make sure the aliens never get up. It doesn't just give the marines a better comeback chance, it also serves as an extra advantage is an otherwise even game.
Is this really effective? What this amounts to is basically killing off a harvester with a clip less of an lmg after it has been up for 4-6 minutes? You are turning almost killed harvesters to killed, but are marines in comeback mode able to get to the decayed harvesters in the first place?
I assume this is intentional, but you are aware that you are also nerfing echoing mature harvesters and misting young harvesters?
An AA could come out at about 5-6 minutes. How strong would rushing an AA be? GL's already murder structures. What about an exo rush at about 6-7 minutes?
* I am not sold on the countdown beginning once maturation has completed. It makes nutrient mist a rookie trap - accelerating the time to begin decaying. (I am now considering a decay that begins once built instead, that is proportionately longer, to once again revive an incentive for misting.) Small note on this: either way, don't forget that misting results in a permanent increase of 300 hp.
* It is well communicated on the map with a slight change in color that wyz chose, gorges see the typical red cross on screen, and anyone can see that the armor is gone from a distance. (even a very far distance with ns2+ settings.) But it may still need some sort of text notification to commanders when the armor is fully decayed, even if a silent one.
* Timing seemed decent, entirely avoiding the early game. Building as fast as one can (nutrient misting gorge egg of player, gorge building end cyst) at the start of a round to the nearest natural RT and without using nutrient mist (since i was concerned about timing here, not the poor interaction with it as mentioned previously) the fastest time to full decay was 6:17 in the round. It will of course be typically longer with gestation times and distances and available tres / strategies.. but knowing that the fastest possible building still entirely avoids 90% of the early game.
* There needs to be a good 30 sec delay or so before the armor begins to decay again after being healed fully, or else it can be annoying or another noob trap.
@mattji104 They sort of are already in quite a few ways.
To quote @remi from a talk earlier today, and to just highlight one area only: There are more of course, to include the stats that show longer rounds being in alien favor, the success rate of sneaky PG, the frequency of seeing Tier 3 marine tech, the increased PvE late game, egg lifeform drops etc etc..
This isn't so much of a nerf as it is giving more potential for comebacks for marines. It's not the same as a decrease in some value, it can be prevented entirely for a trade off.
It is aimed not at Aliens, but at a strong, over expanding Alien team mid to late game, in order to create some shred of potential fragility (6 sec advantage or less) for a trade off.
That's the important part to remember, there is a trade off in either tres or field player position in order to prevent the fragility. Fragility to a scenario that currently has none. Which is quite odd compared to the comeback methods that Aliens have comparatively, when on the backfoot in mid to late game.
That was my fear with not having decay on both teams, but there is too many issues with it, and frankly marines are the ones in need of increasing the comeback frequency, not aliens.
In the scenario you describe though, where the round is "otherwise even" , it should not greatly effect the ability of the team as I said, aliens are not only properly equipped with dealing with this but typically have less and closer RTs to guard, respond to, and heal when necessary. Even you question whether marines can even get past their lines to get to a harvester and take advantage of it IF its available.
If utilizing only a gorge, it takes 4 heal sprays to fully heal an entirely decayed Harvester. Consider the timings involved and the ease in the upkeep.
Then consider reaction times (a 50% armor harvester results in a 3 second advantage) and what will occur on average for a typical round.
While you raise a great concern and something I have thought a lot about, I just don't foresee the scenario of it outright making aliens weaker across the board other than the trade offs required to prevent the fragility. (which i think are minimal; 4 heal sprays and ignore again for quite some time, as the cheapest form of prevention)
I am hoping for minimal impact with this approach.. however you may end up being right and it may need adjusting.
p.s. good call on nutrient mist, that's exactly what happened. I do wonder whether rts may end up being shuffled around more / rotated to get healed and whether that'd be worth it or not, but yes i recognize it makes shifting a different beast, where you'd likely want a crag in base healing it before shipping them out, at best.
@MuckyMcFly Well I'd love if you elaborated, but I understand if you're unwilling.
I think it's a combination of things, not just PvP.
PvE can be huge barrier mid to late game, for instance. PGs can be difficult to defend against 3 aliens, even with teammates pouring through. idk.. I am definitely open to alternatives though!
The way I see it, most marine comebacks comes in the form of JPs - but only when they are rushed and when the map really provides the advantage of having them. Else their time is too late to assist, and the tech is less useful due to room layouts, respectively.
To me, this highlights the importance of the gap in mobility between the teams, and the ability to hit and run (and subsequently heal) again and again without being hunted down.
This completely undoes that possibility now, as all you're doing is getting it to a time where it begins decaying sooner...
Would the commander get decay notifications? Flashing red structures on the map? Or an endless onslaught of voice messages?
The main problem I see with your idea, is that it doesn't fit the purpose.
Here are the problems that I see.
Old harvesters. The way I see it, the marines that are in a position to get to old harvesters (basically naturals and forward bases), are in a good position. They don't need help, all the change does is to punish the aliens for not covering their lanes or maintaining the armour of their harvesters. You may see it as easily defensible for aliens, but I see it as marines in a good position.
Effectiveness of the change. How many extra dead harvesters will this result in? 6 seconds basically translates to an lmg clip or some shotgun shells? I'm sure the scenario of almost dead harvesters happens often enough that it will have an effect, but is it enough to affect? Also, as Nordic mentioned, the change is less effective when there are more marines. By the way, how does it affect bleeding out a harvester + shooting it as opposed to shooting it directly?
Effect on struggling aliens. You mentioned that marines are more in need of comebacks and "minimal" maintenance, but thats not addressing the issue, unless you mean to address that by reducing the aliens chances of coming back as a way to even things out?
My take on this is to buff phase gates somehow, so as to prevent them from needing to have a comeback in the first place. Have a temporary electrify, increase hp, reintroduce knockback, decrease build time/cost. Marines that lose their last phase gate are in a drastically worse position than they were before because they can almost never re-establish their phase gates. They may be winning before that, but once they lose the gate, its grounds for concede unless they managed to put the aliens in a worse position.
If marines want a comeback, they have to kill lifeforms. PVE helps the alien stall for time, but the only thing that stops marines are lifeforms. Also, frequently a lot of the fault is on marines not capitalising on their position. They can sit outside the hive for ages and aliens just wait until they get their lifeforms or manage a base rush that pushes the marines out.
Edit - No shit, Sherlock. I think its pretty much elementary good manners to read before you post.
Ironhorse already addressed all of this. Scroll up.
-Weapon upgrades
-Gas Grenades (cheap to research and purchase, should be promoted more as a "comeback" tool, akin to Bilebomb)
-Exos (less useful for "comeback" as they're expensive)
First, i did not mention marines needing minimal maintenance, just them needing more chances of comebacks.
Making a certain scenario (an over expanding, overly offensive alien team) provide just the chance for some fragility to be taken advantage of.
The issue with this is that it is not determinate on a scenario where marines need a comeback, meaning this could be used simply as a linear buff, where placing a PG early game provides a huge early game advantage when the round would have otherwise have been fair.
You'd have to create a new tech available through advanced armory or something that allows for temporary electrocution at a high tres cost.. something along those lines at least, in order to make it fit only in the scenario and time where it is needed.
I guess there is where we disagree again, since I feel like it is definitely both.
If you consider that even taking out a few fades or an Onos does not still remove a hive room, whips, crags, shades or their 4-5 harvesters etc.. and in fact often marines do not take advantage of their beneficial position in time as you pointed out - often allowing the harvesters that are held to re accrue high lifeforms for aliens before base sieging - well perhaps making it potentially easier to take out their economy, gain ground and eventually block them in their base may help with this typical scenario?
It's a theory.. and it's one that's going to get tested in actual games tonight and then receive adjustment, so we'll get to see how the concept works beyond just being a theory.
I'll post a video here of the game, that will have each team's voice chat included at the same time.
I am accounting for that in the values used
Gas grenades actually aren't often used at all on harvesters, and much more on defense and sieges. Because of this they have very little effect on this change, as a single nerve grenade already removes all harvester armor at any maturation stage. So they would be even less used on harvesters with this.
Exos come too late, are too expensive, and are not worth their cost. I'm all for changing this (and have tried multiple times now) but I am not confident it will happen.
So they need something else.
Also, consider that aliens equally get biomass and BB and other tools to match marine progression.
Many gorges are not that active. It might be too trivial for them to go heal 2-4 harvesters to full hp. That is only 8-16 heal sprays and some travel time. The problem I see with that, is marines will rarely ever see 6 seconds quicker to kill harvesters.
This change highly encourages having at least one gorge all game. Not every gorge is a battle gorge. This could effectively change how many aliens marines see in the field. 1 less alien on the field would effect balance for the entire round.
I meant minimal maintenance on the part of aliens. Apologies for the confusion. You still are not addressing what happens if aliens are not in a good position. The fragility holds and has more devastating consequences.
Yes, it is a buff. Or rather, I can't think of any way to let marines re-establish phase gates after losing their last gate without also buffing it directly, but I think re-establishing gates goes a long way into allowing marines to come back. Might have to think more on this, but really, an otherwise winning marine team can be doomed just by losing their last gate without inflicting major damage on the aliens in return.
What do you think of buffing beacons (respawning all) by the way?
Shrug. If you kill lifeforms, whats stopping you from killing PVE? Skulks? It's going to be hard for them. You'd be clearing everything in your way. As for marines not taking advantage of their position, I think its a l2p issue, where changes like this won't do anything.
Edit - @Nordic Basically rambo marines have a better chance of killing harvesters. It gives aliens less time to react to the marine. I had a game where I almost killed the same harvester several times, only for the damned gorge to heal it every time.
Sounds like you answered your own question there.
I'm for it testing it.
Although i believe it only applies to very specific scenarios, most often a response to losing a wave of players to PvP.
And I worry what it would do to increasing the slippery slope for marines, with failed base seiges where the team is flush with Tres. Beacon, pour through gate, rinse, repeat.
OR worse, the slippery slope increase when a marine base gets attacked while aliens are on the backfoot, and a beacon occurs, you get to flush your entire team back out into the map instantly.. when the aliens are attempting to disrupt your position.
* Allow multi directional thrusters (leave current values tho) - to increase combat viability with slight mobility increase
* Increase bullet dmg back to 25 from 20 - this was changed at some point for unclear reasons.
* Decrease Tres research cost from 30 to 20 - accounting for the fact that Pres costs are the main prohibiting factor of engaging this strategy, the Tres costs are doubly restricting
* And _maybe_ decrease Pres cost from 40/60 to 35/55 - since beacon no longer effects Exos, having too many Exos on the field is less of a worry now as it leaves your base vulnerable.
ironhorse [2:04 PM]
JPs are more viable because they close the mobility gap, are versatile, and dirt cheap (25 tres instead of 30, and 15 pres instead of 60).. changing some of the costs will only _slightly_ assist in lessening the differences in availability.. where increasing the dmg and mobility will assist with actual combat viability, (where they are most weak in comparison) and therefore further encourage availability as well
Let's put it another way. The same decayed harvesters will be decayed whether marines are stuck somewhere and whether the marines are knocking on the door. The difference is that aliens who lose that harvester have less harvesters to fall back on and probably less chance of getting it back up as well. What happens then? You can't say its close by so the aliens can defend it when the aliens are barely holding it in the first place. Have a gorge heal it? Sure, but you are still reducing the margin of error for the aliens and a team on the back foot may not be able to afford a gorge when they are trying to save for lifeforms.
It makes alien base rushes less effective while giving marines a come back mechanic! It's just that it might be slightly too strong. It's not like its NS1 and marines relocate but still spawn in marine start either.
For example, in my balance mod, I'm using these values:
compared to official NS2:
Bile Bomb rush definitely feels a little too strong, while marine sprinting feels it could be faster. There are many changes in my Evolved balance mod that attempt to create solutions to both sides' weaknesses, such as increased Bile Bomb energy cost, and Catalyst pack significantly increasing marine sprinting speed. I would love to see more organised games being played to test my changes!