I'd say that if the free grenade makes turtling significantly stronger, that is an issue with alien end game tech, not so much nades.
For instance, if the contaminate mega-cyst was indestructable again, and also pumped out both spore and umbra clouds, I dont think turtling would be much of a problem anymore, even with a free nade.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited August 2015
It adds to turtle though. Also the incentive to use might go from "situational use" to "use in every situation". Like opener to any fight, smoke a skulk out of vent, skulk biting rt, breaking that gorge fortress, etc. This might imply a huge indirect balance change.
People will get rid of their grenades without second thought.
I don't think it would be a huge issue after the initial 'newness' of the change happened. People would go back to their normal routine and use grenades more tactically after a while. I'm basing this off what happened in NS1 where nade changes were highly popular after changes were introduced, then went back to normal amounts of use after a while once people were used to them.
Grenades are almost broken right now IMO because:
1) You have to buy them, that's 3 res you could save for something demonstrably more useful like mines or a shotgun. Even more-so, the welder which is immediately useful in almost every situation unlike the grenade.
2) If there's a hive rush and the commander happened to research grenades, gas grenades do help but its uncommon.
3) It's annoying to have to stop at the armory, buy a grenade, then die a bit later without even getting the chance to use it since the current situation didn't demand it. Even worse, they don't drop after death. Although that is a secondary point.
I would MUCH rather have a free grenade(s) on me after the comm researched them. Grenades would become like the welder, something immediately useful you have on you at (almost) all times so they're available when the situation demands it. Even if the damage output is less (or follows weapon upgrade levels) would be much preferable to having them as a rarely used gimmick like they're currently.
I think the 'spamming' issue was also a concern during original grenade play testing which is what led to their current cumbersome implementation. It worked great in NS1 and it can be made to work great the same way in NS2.
What if grenades dropped on death like weapon ammo? Anyone who bought grenades themselves (even if they've used both of them) will refill the grenade type they bought by picking up what you dropped. You could also have people without grenades pick them up like regular weapons.
Never understood why they wouldn't drop to begin with. I assumed it was because they had so little value that they didn't want them getting in the way of saving real weapons, so the ammo style auto pickup is designed to prevent that from being an issue.
IF free grenades are implemented, what would people think about having the free version upgraded by the Comm?
This means only 1 free nade, that can be upgraded to be one of the existing three.
This way, the existing assets wont be wasted, the hassle of buying them at the armor is gone, they actually get used, and still require a res investment (Tres now in stead of Pres).
(numbers can be tweaked for balance since 1 free nade is a decent buff imo)
While we are at it, keep welders free but make a comm upgrade on the armory that lets marine spawn with a welder.
I think there was a server mod floating around that made welders free but you still had to purchase them from armory. I think welders should still need to be bought personally, but maybe have an option to auto-purchase on IP spawn while its selected in armory?
While spawning, why not be able to buy anything from the armory or protolab (except exo). The IP is literally building your marine; could it not also build a shotgun in your hands instead of an LMG? As long as you pay for it with pres that is. It shouldn't really effect balance having personal tech a few seconds earlier.
While spawning, why not be able to buy anything from the armory or protolab (except exo). The IP is literally building your marine; could it not also build a shotgun in your hands instead of an LMG? As long as you pay for it with pres that is. It shouldn't really effect balance having personal tech a few seconds earlier.
being able to spawn with a shotgun when aliens are biting the IPs (or anything in the base) changes the dynamic of the game a little bit too much I think.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2015
If every marine respawns with a grenade through an upgrade, then it becomes less of a choice. Choices are what keep the game interesting. Buying a Gas Grenade and getting ambushed by a Skulk does give buyer's remorse. But if you did make it to a Harvester, it would feel much more rewarding. I think Pulse Grenade should fill the "anti (alien) personnel" role, but it isn't quite good enough yet.
I'd rather see the grenades becoming more powerful rather than being a part of every marine's boring cookiecutter kit.
While spawning, why not be able to buy anything from the armory or protolab (except exo). The IP is literally building your marine; could it not also build a shotgun in your hands instead of an LMG? As long as you pay for it with pres that is. It shouldn't really effect balance having personal tech a few seconds earlier.
being able to spawn with a shotgun when aliens are biting the IPs (or anything in the base) changes the dynamic of the game a little bit too much I think.
You still have to pay pres for it. At worst it just takes away some strength from a base rush. I don't think it would make any difference in the average pub, but at the high level it very well could. If you have 3 skulks on an IP your spawning on, would you risk 20 pres on a situation where you are at an extreme disadvantage?
If every marine respawns with a grenade through an upgrade, then it becomes less of a choice. Choices are what keep the game interesting. Buying a Gas Grenade and getting ambushed by a Skulk does give buyer's remorse. But if you did make it to a Harvester, it would go down much quicker. I think Pulse Grenade should fill the "anti (alien) personnel" role, but it currently isn't quite good enough.
I'd rather see the grenades becoming more powerful rather than being a part of every marine's boring cookiecutter kit.
It would still be a choice if they had to purchase them. The grenades are already pretty powerful as is, especially the gas grenade.
While spawning, why not be able to buy anything from the armory or protolab (except exo). The IP is literally building your marine; could it not also build a shotgun in your hands instead of an LMG? As long as you pay for it with pres that is. It shouldn't really effect balance having personal tech a few seconds earlier.
While spawning, why not be able to buy anything from the armory or protolab (except exo). The IP is literally building your marine; could it not also build a shotgun in your hands instead of an LMG? As long as you pay for it with pres that is. It shouldn't really effect balance having personal tech a few seconds earlier.
Hmmm. I'm on the fence on that one. If I'm commanding, I'd save that 10 tres from an armory in base and spend it on medpacks. I think 10 extra medpacks that you otherwise wouldn't have in the early/mid game, will affect balance, especially at the high level. How much, I couldn't say..
What about welders? Would they be purchasable from IP's without any armories on the map, or is armories going to remain a condition for welders?
You could have it so in order to use an armory/proto while spawning the IP needs to be in range of that armory/proto. (same range as for dropping weapons as com). I've seen a lot of "no armory in base" strats that I personally find very frustrating when I want a welder or need my team to have welders.
Anyway, this doesn't really have anything to do with pulse nades. The half second you need to buy them when you go to buy your welder really has no impact on their viability to begin with. The problems are down to the power of the individual 'nades, cost in res, the risk of losing the 'nades without getting a chance to use them, and the probability of actually needing a different type of 'nade when you finally do go to use it (The "cost" of not being able to shoot while throwing is part of the grenades power problem). NONE of that is affected by being able to buy them at spawn.
Spawning with a default grenade for free also doesn't do anything to make pulse grenades more viable. In fact it makes pulses in particular LESS viable because now the res you are spending is just for the upgrade difference between the default grenade and the pulse pack instead of the difference between no grenade at all and the pulse pack.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Aliens already win frequently enough with 3 hive games? This fact alone is why you rarely see tier 3 tech??..
Other than that, I concur, make em a projectile because it requires too much exposure to a lifeform that already does not scale as well as the others throughout the round. (to include carapace)
While spawning, why not be able to buy anything from the armory or protolab (except exo). The IP is literally building your marine; could it not also build a shotgun in your hands instead of an LMG? As long as you pay for it with pres that is. It shouldn't really effect balance having personal tech a few seconds earlier.
Hmmm. I'm on the fence on that one. If I'm commanding, I'd save that 10 tres from an armory in base and spend it on medpacks. I think 10 extra medpacks that you otherwise wouldn't have in the early/mid game, will affect balance, especially at the high level. How much, I couldn't say..
What about welders? Would they be purchasable from IP's without any armories on the map, or is armories going to remain a condition for welders?
@Nordic : why not be able to buy anything from the armory or protolab (except exo).
As in you need to have unlocked that tech to be able to purchase it when spawning, thus still requiring the armory.
Skulks on IPs
Marines able to spawn with pulse grenade
Somethingsomething
That "somethingsomething" being "dead marine". Throwing a grenade at your own feet that cannot do enough damage to kill the enemy there seems like an especially foolish idea. You are actually much more effective just spawning with the rifle ready, unless the skulks happen to be at low health. Buying a shotgun might help with that situation though.
Other than that and the fact that marines wouldn't need an armory in base (unless buying while spawning was range restricted), buying while spawning wouldn't actually have any real benefits. Armory buying time is usually pretty insignificant as long as you don't have to go out of your way to get to one.
Buying grenades at forward armories just before you need it (eg buy a gas grenade directly outside of a hive) is a much more effective strategy for grenade purchasing anyway. All the talk of streamlining the process actually misses that point entirely and ultimately has nothing at all to do with pulse grenade viability.
Skulks on IPs
Marines able to spawn with pulse grenade
Somethingsomething
That "somethingsomething" being "dead marine". Throwing a grenade at your own feet that cannot do enough damage to kill the enemy there seems like an especially foolish idea. You are actually much more effective just spawning with the rifle ready, unless the skulks happen to be at low health. Buying a shotgun might help with that situation though.
Other than that and the fact that marines wouldn't need an armory in base (unless buying while spawning was range restricted), buying while spawning wouldn't actually have any real benefits. Armory buying time is usually pretty insignificant as long as you don't have to go out of your way to get to one.
Buying grenades at forward armories just before you need it (eg buy a gas grenade directly outside of a hive) is a much more effective strategy for grenade purchasing anyway. All the talk of streamlining the process actually misses that point entirely and ultimately has nothing at all to do with pulse grenade viability.
Yeah may we direct the topic back onto the use of pulse grenades pls!
Skulks on IPs
Marines able to spawn with pulse grenade
Somethingsomething
That "somethingsomething" being "dead marine". Throwing a grenade at your own feet that cannot do enough damage to kill the enemy there seems like an especially foolish idea. You are actually much more effective just spawning with the rifle ready, unless the skulks happen to be at low health. Buying a shotgun might help with that situation though.
Maybe dead marine.
Maybe dead marine, but the 3 skulks with halved DPS from pulse dont manage to destroy the IP before that other marine runs back in through the door and shoots them all dead (since they were all heavily damaged by the pulse).
I'd trade a marine for an IP. It's okay if you dont want IPs though.
Other than that and the fact that marines wouldn't need an armory in base (unless buying while spawning was range restricted), buying while spawning wouldn't actually have any real benefits. Armory buying time is usually pretty insignificant as long as you don't have to go out of your way to get to one.
Yeah I'm pretty sure the established base of this idea was that you could only purchase from armories within range of the IPs. I see lots of people contesting the idea of buying stuff while dead regardless of armory presence, but nobody actually proposing that idea.
The electrical pulse generated by nanites need to be triggered by the thrower of the grenade. The thrower is identified by the marine armor having the same surface plasmon resonance (SPR) frequency as the nanite pulse grenade. This has the effect of the nanite grenade not affecting team mates whose nanite armor SPR frequency do not match the grenade's. However the side effect is the thrower will be affected by their own grenade.
It must be noted since the introduction of the SPR frequency tagging, "friendly fire" incidents have decreased almost 100%. With only occasion damage to team mates whose SPR frequency is close to the thrower's by random chance.
I'd like to see grenades given on spawn, as it feels clunky to buy them from an armory (maybe allow subsequent grenades to be bought though ?). If they were to be given on spawn, they should be, however, nerfed. Frag doing 10-20-or-so tiny explosions for a p-res-free grenade shouldn't happen. A bit less with pulse and also nerf gas (maybe make the fog smaller ? and/or reduce the armor-damage by ~2; as more players would have it, it would need to be less op).
Also making them more expensive to research (as they would be free for the players). Maybe 10-15-20 res per grenade research ? Also the fact that you have to researched ALL the grenades altogether seems strange. I'd like to see specialization of a grenade type (gives more stuff to do/research to the marine comm ).
I'd limit the player to 1 or 2 grenades to be chosen from a menu when spawning (i.e. prevent having pulse AND frag AND gas at the same time).
I'd like to see grenades given on spawn, as it feels clunky to buy them from an armory (maybe allow subsequent grenades to be bought though ?). If they were to be given on spawn, they should be, however, nerfed. Frag doing 10-20-or-so tiny explosions for a p-res-free grenade shouldn't happen. A bit less with pulse and also nerf gas (maybe make the fog smaller ? and/or reduce the armor-damage by ~2; as more players would have it, it would need to be less op).
At the moment clusters are great for doing decent AOE damage, and it's fair this costs p-res. It's also logical to reduce its damage if it's going to be a freebie every spawn, but then now we lose the main explosive damage dealer for marines that isn't a GL.
Unless... it was a grenade that created a sonic wave that 'pushes' nearby lifeforms. Like an explosive force without the damage. Closer to the source, the more you're blown back. And the larger the lifeform, the less effect it has, until at Onos it does nothing. This would make it good vs skulks and gorges, and not as useful late game, which is precisely what you want, as marines would need to invest p-res for more powerful grenades rather than relying on a freebie [that you spawn with]. Additional: it would also reduce spam abuse, since a flurry of free nades at the hive won't actually do damage.
I like this idea, what a great idea! This guy's idea is great!
I'd like to see grenades given on spawn, as it feels clunky to buy them from an armory (maybe allow subsequent grenades to be bought though ?). If they were to be given on spawn, they should be, however, nerfed. Frag doing 10-20-or-so tiny explosions for a p-res-free grenade shouldn't happen. A bit less with pulse and also nerf gas (maybe make the fog smaller ? and/or reduce the armor-damage by ~2; as more players would have it, it would need to be less op).
At the moment clusters are great for doing decent AOE damage, and it's fair this costs p-res. It's also logical to reduce its damage if it's going to be a freebie every spawn, but then now we lose the main explosive damage dealer for marines that isn't a GL.
Unless... it was a grenade that created a sonic wave that 'pushes' nearby lifeforms. Like an explosive force without the damage. Closer to the source, the more you're blown back. And the larger the lifeform, the less effect it has, until at Onos it does nothing. This would make it good vs skulks and gorges, and not as useful late game, which is precisely what you want, as marines would need to invest p-res for more powerful grenades rather than relying on a freebie [that you spawn with]. Additional: it would also reduce spam abuse, since a flurry of free nades at the hive won't actually do damage.
I like this idea, what a great idea! This guy's idea is great!
Comments
I'd say that if the free grenade makes turtling significantly stronger, that is an issue with alien end game tech, not so much nades.
For instance, if the contaminate mega-cyst was indestructable again, and also pumped out both spore and umbra clouds, I dont think turtling would be much of a problem anymore, even with a free nade.
I don't think it would be a huge issue after the initial 'newness' of the change happened. People would go back to their normal routine and use grenades more tactically after a while. I'm basing this off what happened in NS1 where nade changes were highly popular after changes were introduced, then went back to normal amounts of use after a while once people were used to them.
Grenades are almost broken right now IMO because:
1) You have to buy them, that's 3 res you could save for something demonstrably more useful like mines or a shotgun. Even more-so, the welder which is immediately useful in almost every situation unlike the grenade.
2) If there's a hive rush and the commander happened to research grenades, gas grenades do help but its uncommon.
3) It's annoying to have to stop at the armory, buy a grenade, then die a bit later without even getting the chance to use it since the current situation didn't demand it. Even worse, they don't drop after death. Although that is a secondary point.
I would MUCH rather have a free grenade(s) on me after the comm researched them. Grenades would become like the welder, something immediately useful you have on you at (almost) all times so they're available when the situation demands it. Even if the damage output is less (or follows weapon upgrade levels) would be much preferable to having them as a rarely used gimmick like they're currently.
I think the 'spamming' issue was also a concern during original grenade play testing which is what led to their current cumbersome implementation. It worked great in NS1 and it can be made to work great the same way in NS2.
Never understood why they wouldn't drop to begin with. I assumed it was because they had so little value that they didn't want them getting in the way of saving real weapons, so the ammo style auto pickup is designed to prevent that from being an issue.
This means only 1 free nade, that can be upgraded to be one of the existing three.
This way, the existing assets wont be wasted, the hassle of buying them at the armor is gone, they actually get used, and still require a res investment (Tres now in stead of Pres).
(numbers can be tweaked for balance since 1 free nade is a decent buff imo)
Wild spitball ideas ftw!
I think there was a server mod floating around that made welders free but you still had to purchase them from armory. I think welders should still need to be bought personally, but maybe have an option to auto-purchase on IP spawn while its selected in armory?
at the very least research to halve the pres cost. i'd like to see more tech like that to allow for more diversity in the build order.
being able to spawn with a shotgun when aliens are biting the IPs (or anything in the base) changes the dynamic of the game a little bit too much I think.
I'd rather see the grenades becoming more powerful rather than being a part of every marine's boring cookiecutter kit.
Would it really throw balance off if you still had to pay 3 pres for them, but only had the option to purchase them while spawning?
It would still be a choice if they had to purchase them. The grenades are already pretty powerful as is, especially the gas grenade.
Yeaaah can't always be using that lazy ass excuse anymore
Of course we can. Because nanites.
Perhaps idea of the century?
Hmmm. I'm on the fence on that one. If I'm commanding, I'd save that 10 tres from an armory in base and spend it on medpacks. I think 10 extra medpacks that you otherwise wouldn't have in the early/mid game, will affect balance, especially at the high level. How much, I couldn't say..
What about welders? Would they be purchasable from IP's without any armories on the map, or is armories going to remain a condition for welders?
Anyway, this doesn't really have anything to do with pulse nades. The half second you need to buy them when you go to buy your welder really has no impact on their viability to begin with. The problems are down to the power of the individual 'nades, cost in res, the risk of losing the 'nades without getting a chance to use them, and the probability of actually needing a different type of 'nade when you finally do go to use it (The "cost" of not being able to shoot while throwing is part of the grenades power problem). NONE of that is affected by being able to buy them at spawn.
Spawning with a default grenade for free also doesn't do anything to make pulse grenades more viable. In fact it makes pulses in particular LESS viable because now the res you are spending is just for the upgrade difference between the default grenade and the pulse pack instead of the difference between no grenade at all and the pulse pack.
Other than that, I concur, make em a projectile because it requires too much exposure to a lifeform that already does not scale as well as the others throughout the round. (to include carapace)
@Nordic : why not be able to buy anything from the armory or protolab (except exo).
As in you need to have unlocked that tech to be able to purchase it when spawning, thus still requiring the armory.
Marines able to spawn with pulse grenade
Somethingsomething
That "somethingsomething" being "dead marine". Throwing a grenade at your own feet that cannot do enough damage to kill the enemy there seems like an especially foolish idea. You are actually much more effective just spawning with the rifle ready, unless the skulks happen to be at low health. Buying a shotgun might help with that situation though.
Other than that and the fact that marines wouldn't need an armory in base (unless buying while spawning was range restricted), buying while spawning wouldn't actually have any real benefits. Armory buying time is usually pretty insignificant as long as you don't have to go out of your way to get to one.
Buying grenades at forward armories just before you need it (eg buy a gas grenade directly outside of a hive) is a much more effective strategy for grenade purchasing anyway. All the talk of streamlining the process actually misses that point entirely and ultimately has nothing at all to do with pulse grenade viability.
Yeah may we direct the topic back onto the use of pulse grenades pls!
Maybe dead marine, but the 3 skulks with halved DPS from pulse dont manage to destroy the IP before that other marine runs back in through the door and shoots them all dead (since they were all heavily damaged by the pulse).
I'd trade a marine for an IP. It's okay if you dont want IPs though.
Yeah I'm pretty sure the established base of this idea was that you could only purchase from armories within range of the IPs. I see lots of people contesting the idea of buying stuff while dead regardless of armory presence, but nobody actually proposing that idea.
@OnosFactory
The electrical pulse generated by nanites need to be triggered by the thrower of the grenade. The thrower is identified by the marine armor having the same surface plasmon resonance (SPR) frequency as the nanite pulse grenade. This has the effect of the nanite grenade not affecting team mates whose nanite armor SPR frequency do not match the grenade's. However the side effect is the thrower will be affected by their own grenade.
It must be noted since the introduction of the SPR frequency tagging, "friendly fire" incidents have decreased almost 100%. With only occasion damage to team mates whose SPR frequency is close to the thrower's by random chance.
Also making them more expensive to research (as they would be free for the players). Maybe 10-15-20 res per grenade research ? Also the fact that you have to researched ALL the grenades altogether seems strange. I'd like to see specialization of a grenade type (gives more stuff to do/research to the marine comm
I'd limit the player to 1 or 2 grenades to be chosen from a menu when spawning (i.e. prevent having pulse AND frag AND gas at the same time).
Red
If I say so myself.
you mean conc jumping?