twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
As much as NS2 is loved for its difficulty (or "depth", some may call it that), it is also hated for it.
I think the only hope of reviving NS2 would be a very well made fun mod, which is also widely publicized (although there are many powerful competing engines to Spark...). The core NS2 game is unlikely to change, and a new official game mode would cost too much money and effort to develop.
Combat simplified NS(1) and enabled a lot more players to enjoy the NS universe (although NS2:Combat hasn't had the same success).
As much as NS2 is loved for its difficulty (or "depth", some may call it that), it is also hated for it.
I think the only hope of reviving NS2 would be a very well made fun mod, which is also widely publicized (although there are many powerful competing engines to Spark...). The core NS2 game is unlikely to change, and a new official game mode would cost too much money and effort to develop.
The complexity isn't the main problem, the lack of good ingame tutorials and helpful players is. Explaining all important elements with some good examples shouldn't be too difficult.
Combat simplified NS(1) and enabled a lot more players to enjoy the NS universe (although NS2:Combat hasn't had the same success).
What would be achieved with simplifying the combat? Might as well play another game then. CS:GO shows that complex shooters can be successful.
And the NS universe? I like the game, but some technological advanced marines fighting different alien species is - without back story - as generic as generic could be.
As much as NS2 is loved for its difficulty (or "depth", some may call it that), it is also hated for it.
I think the only hope of reviving NS2 would be a very well made fun mod, which is also widely publicized (although there are many powerful competing engines to Spark...). The core NS2 game is unlikely to change, and a new official game mode would cost too much money and effort to develop.
The complexity isn't the main problem, the lack of good ingame tutorials and helpful players is. Explaining all important elements with some good examples shouldn't be too difficult.
Combat simplified NS(1) and enabled a lot more players to enjoy the NS universe (although NS2:Combat hasn't had the same success).
What would be achieved with simplifying the combat? Might as well play another game then. CS:GO shows that complex shooters can be successful.
And the NS universe? I like the game, but some technological advanced marines fighting different alien species is - without back story - as generic as generic could be.
NS2 does have a basic tutorial. It's the strategic elements (importance of map control and teching) and unintuitive game mechanics (eg. walljump) that are difficult for most FPS players to grasp, unless they were written in ink (but who has time for a game manual these days?), or highlighted in well coloured signposts (Valve and Blizzard do this fairly well).
IMO NS2 needs more of these signposts to guide new players, for example, the location of all the res nodes on the map could be highlighted in different colours, and the locations of sighted enemy res nodes and tech points remain highlighted on the mini-map, to keep reminding players of their importance.
Also, it's rather difficult for new players to appreciate the depth of the game when they spend most of the time dying to players who outclass them so much, yet teach them so little of the mechanics of the game (due to lack of killcam, and obvious "counters", eg smoke grenade vs sniper, spy vs sentry).
Personally, Combat wasn't exactly my favourite game. But the fact was, it attracted many more players to NS1 when the player base was dwindling (although it did little to boost NS_ player numbers).
When players are able to successfully crowdfund a world championship and Gorge plushies, you know it's more than just a generic marine vs alien shooter.
People have explained to you multiple times now why simply implementing what you are suggesting would not fix your issue. Please carefully read this thread and all responses to your issue once again.
Also, If matchmaking was implemented tomorrow it would not suddenly raise our playercount to the numbers that would be required to adequately take advantage of matchmaking.
In NS1, most of the servers I played on used Combat to fill the server, and once the server was full, the mapvotes would include standard NS maps, leading to a regular game.
This made seeding a server entertaining, and gave players a chance to warm up before starting a "real" match.
I never understood why NS2 servers did not do this when Combat was still being supported in NS2.
Odd, in most of my NS1 matches, people voted INTO combat matches instead of classic.
It became harder and harder to find any classic matches at all.
It's the other side of the coin. At first it was NS that won the vote. Then Combat took over slowly but surely. Mostly because there was no new activity around it. NS 1.32 was the out since a long time, no new map etc.
People have explained to you multiple times now why simply implementing what you are suggesting would not fix your issue. Please carefully read this thread and all responses to your issue once again.
Also, If matchmaking was implemented tomorrow it would not suddenly raise our playercount to the numbers that would be required to adequately take advantage of matchmaking.
Then how developers gonna "Fix my issue" ? Any ideas ?
Cuz i love want to play NS2 with no lag >> 100% of my time play this game is with 300+ ping ( im from ASEAN region of Asia , they share a same fiber international internet from Singapore )
People have explained to you multiple times now why simply implementing what you are suggesting would not fix your issue. Please carefully read this thread and all responses to your issue once again.
Also, If matchmaking was implemented tomorrow it would not suddenly raise our playercount to the numbers that would be required to adequately take advantage of matchmaking.
Then how developers gonna "Fix my issue" ? Any ideas ?
Cuz i love want to play NS2 with no lag >> 100% of my time play this game is with 300+ ping ( im from ASEAN region of Asia , they share a same fiber international internet from Singapore )
Lets put it this way, the CDT aren't paying for a plane flight for you and your PC anytime soon.
Also, If matchmaking was implemented tomorrow it would not suddenly raise our playercount to the numbers that would be required to adequately take advantage of matchmaking.
I disagree.
Lets look at CS:GO for example since that game is a huge success right now.
For months the game had no match making. Critics and the devs both agreed the game wasn't growing. They were insanely concerned over this, sitting at 12,000 players for months on end. They added a match making system. Within a month, the player base more than doubled, went from 12k to 30k. Within a year it had over 90,000 players. The game is sitting at 200,000+ players right now.
Here is why!
On top of adding in a match making system, they added in a way to "earn" either by playing or purchasing skins. They've added in a huge assortment of skins, some which are rarer than others. You can earn these by playing and winning matches in an RNG chest box type way. Or you can simply purchase the skins off people or the store. People love micro transactions.
Lets take a look at hearthstone. Free to play game. You can play that game without spending a dime. But do you think people care about that shit? They will pay to play if they want to. The game itself has earned billions from micro transactions.
Lets take a look at League of Legends and Dota 2. Free to play games. They earn millions, if not billions of dollars and host huge tournaments every year. On top of that, dota 2 and league of legends has a steeper learning curve than NS2 does. So the learning curve isn't the problem.
So with all this being said, in my honest opinion....going free to play and adding in more skins you can purchase or even "earn" after many hours of game play will keep the game and devs afloat.
On top of that, you NEED a match making system. I'm not talking about a competitive match making system. I just mean a generic, every day match making system. A "pug/competitive" match making system can be created later.
TL;DR:
This game needs to be free to play
This game needs a generic match making system when it goes free to play.
This game needs more skins for micro transactions
This game needs to be free to play
This game needs a generic match making system when it goes free to play.
This game needs more skins for micro transactions
'Free to play/non-free to play' is not a key. The key is the productivity of the developer team.
I agree with the idea behind what you've said for most games, but i think there is something in NS2 specifically that also need to be considered.
That is performance. It doesn't matter how good the matchmaking is, or how many awsome skins exist to either earn or purchase if the average computer cannot run the game.
Ive never played CS:GO or DOTA2, but I can tell you that one of the reason league is so popular is because it can run on a toaster. It has no pay wall OR system requirements.
I'm hoping with what I've seen on trello that this is going to get a lot better, but we cant hope for miracles in that department.
And the marketing. All the games cited by @schu did have a undeniable better cover for one Steam sale than NS2 ever had all together. It probably did help a little.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2015
@schu This is common knowledge thanks to news articles with graphs from Valve.. but it never ever credited Matchmaking??
In fact the large success was from the added content, as you pointed out.
Observe:
CSGO's "Queue" Matchmaking was introduced October 2012.. notice how little that impacts the graph? The free weekend is what pulled it up.
Still, at least they had 12,000 players with which to match..
It's pretty clear that matchmaking alone with a playercount of 500 players would do absolutely nothing.
But if you included tons of new content and updates and free weekends, maybe you can spike those numbers and finally keep them with something as fostering as matchmaking and tutorials..
I love NS2 but I do play pc fps with the main focus on 'competition' - unfortunately in NS2's later stages the player skill level in general on most public servers went down and made the game less enjoyable for me to play. I'm sure I could get onto organized pugs a few times a night but I don't know.
Also in the initial release the performance (not to complain) was the letdown for a lot of my friends who said they simply couldn't run it at a level they deemed good enough to play seriously. So I love ns2, I thought it was worth more than what I spent on it and I love the community/dev team but I don't have any desire to play it again, I just loved the intense competitive matches always having to be focused and strategy.. once that's gone my fun is gone
i would really like a DM mod for ns2 similar to a round of quake.
spawn in search for weapons that are scattered about the map on spawners, health packs for health and welders for armor.
catpack jetpack and exo spawns would be like the quad damage etc.
faster movement speed and jump height
i would also like an ns2 mod that is a dual mod. spawns 2 guys into the arena in rounds 1 as a jetpack shotgun marine and the other as a fade. winner stays on.
gorge wars would be 2 alien teams fighting each other, everyone plays a gorge and there are no commanders. gorges build everything.
i would also like an ns2 mod that is a dual mod. spawns 2 guys into the arena in rounds 1 as a jetpack shotgun marine and the other as a fade. winner stays on.
This is basically how competitive players drill with each other. Get on an empty server and enable cheats. You get instant respawns and so on. So I don't think a mod is really required for that one.
i would also like an ns2 mod that is a dual mod. spawns 2 guys into the arena in rounds 1 as a jetpack shotgun marine and the other as a fade. winner stays on.
This is basically how competitive players drill with each other. Get on an empty server and enable cheats. You get instant respawns and so on. So I don't think a mod is really required for that one.
It would certainly increase ease of use though. Maybe some non comp players would play it. Probably not many.
Im just saying that Developers need to do something about finding server for new players =='
There is many server
But if you want to play with good ping >> You have to idle / AFK in that server for nearly 5-6 hours and barely no one can start a game at least 4v4 :P
Maybe a General chat channel in-game for players can type chat :"Hey im joinning UWE EU server ... join me "
Frequent updates with bugfixes and new content. I hope CDT will help with this
Lock of commander role for new players because they don't know what to do and get ejected
Probably some role for noob players where you can not influence the match a lot but also do not die so frequently. In many FPS games it is sniper role - you can observe fights from distance in safety but you get only few kills.
Clear and updated manual for NS2
Decrease the influence of commander on match result. Make this role closer to regular marine. When you have good commander it is great game experience but if you have bad one it is waste of time. Good example: in Red Orchestra 2 commander influences the game, but team could win without commander at all.
Make at least one map with open spaces. Many people dislike to play in confined spaces.
Frequent competitive events with small prizes and one annual championship with bigger prize. You can raise money for these events with the help of community or by releasing new skins and weapon models.
[*]Lock of commander role for new players because they don't know what to do and get ejected
This idea has been tossed around before and it has merit. But what if there are only rookies on the server? The popular server admin mod, shine, has the option to do just that. Server operators can opt to do that on their servers if they wanted to.
[*]Probably some role for noob players where you can not influence the match a lot but also do not die so frequently. In many FPS games it is sniper role - you can observe fights from distance in safety but you get only few kills.
What would you suggest @corund? I know you do not mean snipers in ns2 because that would not work. When you say, die so frequently, that is part of ns2. Ns2 is about economy and as an lmg only marine or skulk you are completely free. I know most games dying is bad, but often in ns2 dying is good. This could be a core problem with ns2's design, or partially a learn to play issue. Either way it is hard to resolve.
I do really like the idea of new players being able to play higher life forms longer and more frequently. This is something @ironhorse has spoken about for some time now. If a new person goes fade they do not know what to do. They will die in probably under a minute and not know what they did wrong. Where is the time to learn? Even that would be a big balance change.
[*]Clear and updated manual for NS2
The wiki is not great for this. @Cannon_FodderAUS has a written manual he is always talking about. Here is his manual.
[*]Decrease the influence of commander on match result. Make this role closer to regular marine. When you have good commander it is great game experience but if you have bad one it is waste of time. Good example: in Red Orchestra 2 commander influences the game, but team could win without commander at all.
Without saying whether this would be a good or bad change, this is a core design component in ns2 and would be very hard to change. It would require and entire rebalance of the game. Maybe an idea for ns3?
[*]Make at least one map with open spaces. Many people dislike to play in confined spaces.
This is a core design issue with ns2. I don't have a problem with confined spaces in ns2. Marines become far stronger in wide open areas since they would have long lines of site. I honestly think it fits thematically because most maps are in some sort of space station or base. I would expect confined spaces personally. @corund, could you expand on this? I would really like to know more of your thoughts on this.
[*]Frequent competitive events with small prizes and one annual championship with bigger prize. You can raise money for these events with the help of community or by releasing new skins and weapon models.
I think many want this. There are mostly frequent competitive events. The NSL, competitive league, is starting season 6 here soon. There are no prizes as far as I know. Who would pay for them? The community is pretty small as is. The last world cup almost didn't happen because of funding. If we could increase the player base, and a more active competitive scene came about, I think this would be great. Chicken and the egg though.
Comments
I think the only hope of reviving NS2 would be a very well made fun mod, which is also widely publicized (although there are many powerful competing engines to Spark...). The core NS2 game is unlikely to change, and a new official game mode would cost too much money and effort to develop.
Combat simplified NS(1) and enabled a lot more players to enjoy the NS universe (although NS2:Combat hasn't had the same success).
What would be achieved with simplifying the combat? Might as well play another game then. CS:GO shows that complex shooters can be successful.
And the NS universe? I like the game, but some technological advanced marines fighting different alien species is - without back story - as generic as generic could be.
IMO NS2 needs more of these signposts to guide new players, for example, the location of all the res nodes on the map could be highlighted in different colours, and the locations of sighted enemy res nodes and tech points remain highlighted on the mini-map, to keep reminding players of their importance.
Also, it's rather difficult for new players to appreciate the depth of the game when they spend most of the time dying to players who outclass them so much, yet teach them so little of the mechanics of the game (due to lack of killcam, and obvious "counters", eg smoke grenade vs sniper, spy vs sentry).
Personally, Combat wasn't exactly my favourite game. But the fact was, it attracted many more players to NS1 when the player base was dwindling (although it did little to boost NS_ player numbers).
When players are able to successfully crowdfund a world championship and Gorge plushies, you know it's more than just a generic marine vs alien shooter.
People have explained to you multiple times now why simply implementing what you are suggesting would not fix your issue.
Please carefully read this thread and all responses to your issue once again.
Also, If matchmaking was implemented tomorrow it would not suddenly raise our playercount to the numbers that would be required to adequately take advantage of matchmaking.
In NS1, most of the servers I played on used Combat to fill the server, and once the server was full, the mapvotes would include standard NS maps, leading to a regular game.
This made seeding a server entertaining, and gave players a chance to warm up before starting a "real" match.
I never understood why NS2 servers did not do this when Combat was still being supported in NS2.
It became harder and harder to find any classic matches at all.
It's the other side of the coin. At first it was NS that won the vote. Then Combat took over slowly but surely. Mostly because there was no new activity around it. NS 1.32 was the out since a long time, no new map etc.
Then how developers gonna "Fix my issue" ? Any ideas ?
Cuz i love want to play NS2 with no lag >> 100% of my time play this game is with 300+ ping ( im from ASEAN region of Asia , they share a same fiber international internet from Singapore
Lets put it this way, the CDT aren't paying for a plane flight for you and your PC anytime soon.
I disagree.
Lets look at CS:GO for example since that game is a huge success right now.
For months the game had no match making. Critics and the devs both agreed the game wasn't growing. They were insanely concerned over this, sitting at 12,000 players for months on end. They added a match making system. Within a month, the player base more than doubled, went from 12k to 30k. Within a year it had over 90,000 players. The game is sitting at 200,000+ players right now.
Here is why!
On top of adding in a match making system, they added in a way to "earn" either by playing or purchasing skins. They've added in a huge assortment of skins, some which are rarer than others. You can earn these by playing and winning matches in an RNG chest box type way. Or you can simply purchase the skins off people or the store. People love micro transactions.
Lets take a look at hearthstone. Free to play game. You can play that game without spending a dime. But do you think people care about that shit? They will pay to play if they want to. The game itself has earned billions from micro transactions.
Lets take a look at League of Legends and Dota 2. Free to play games. They earn millions, if not billions of dollars and host huge tournaments every year. On top of that, dota 2 and league of legends has a steeper learning curve than NS2 does. So the learning curve isn't the problem.
So with all this being said, in my honest opinion....going free to play and adding in more skins you can purchase or even "earn" after many hours of game play will keep the game and devs afloat.
On top of that, you NEED a match making system. I'm not talking about a competitive match making system. I just mean a generic, every day match making system. A "pug/competitive" match making system can be created later.
TL;DR:
This game needs to be free to play
This game needs a generic match making system when it goes free to play.
This game needs more skins for micro transactions
'Free to play/non-free to play' is not a key. The key is the productivity of the developer team.
It is the only thing you should be worried about.
I agree with the idea behind what you've said for most games, but i think there is something in NS2 specifically that also need to be considered.
That is performance. It doesn't matter how good the matchmaking is, or how many awsome skins exist to either earn or purchase if the average computer cannot run the game.
Ive never played CS:GO or DOTA2, but I can tell you that one of the reason league is so popular is because it can run on a toaster. It has no pay wall OR system requirements.
I'm hoping with what I've seen on trello that this is going to get a lot better, but we cant hope for miracles in that department.
In fact the large success was from the added content, as you pointed out.
Observe:
CSGO's "Queue" Matchmaking was introduced October 2012.. notice how little that impacts the graph? The free weekend is what pulled it up.
Still, at least they had 12,000 players with which to match..
It's pretty clear that matchmaking alone with a playercount of 500 players would do absolutely nothing.
But if you included tons of new content and updates and free weekends, maybe you can spike those numbers and finally keep them with something as fostering as matchmaking and tutorials..
Yes, the only thing is:
Developers
I almost forgot that Steve Ballmer was one sweaty dude.
Also in the initial release the performance (not to complain) was the letdown for a lot of my friends who said they simply couldn't run it at a level they deemed good enough to play seriously. So I love ns2, I thought it was worth more than what I spent on it and I love the community/dev team but I don't have any desire to play it again, I just loved the intense competitive matches always having to be focused and strategy.. once that's gone my fun is gone
Very recently. Three days ago, I think.
spawn in search for weapons that are scattered about the map on spawners, health packs for health and welders for armor.
catpack jetpack and exo spawns would be like the quad damage etc.
faster movement speed and jump height
i would also like an ns2 mod that is a dual mod. spawns 2 guys into the arena in rounds 1 as a jetpack shotgun marine and the other as a fade. winner stays on.
gorge wars would be 2 alien teams fighting each other, everyone plays a gorge and there are no commanders. gorges build everything.
World Championship.
It would certainly increase ease of use though. Maybe some non comp players would play it. Probably not many.
There is many server
But if you want to play with good ping >> You have to idle / AFK in that server for nearly 5-6 hours and barely no one can start a game at least 4v4 :P
Maybe a General chat channel in-game for players can type chat :"Hey im joinning UWE EU server ... join me "
This is a good idea.
Right now we are waiting on the build machine to be finished.
This idea has been tossed around before and it has merit. But what if there are only rookies on the server? The popular server admin mod, shine, has the option to do just that. Server operators can opt to do that on their servers if they wanted to.
What would you suggest @corund? I know you do not mean snipers in ns2 because that would not work. When you say, die so frequently, that is part of ns2. Ns2 is about economy and as an lmg only marine or skulk you are completely free. I know most games dying is bad, but often in ns2 dying is good. This could be a core problem with ns2's design, or partially a learn to play issue. Either way it is hard to resolve.
I do really like the idea of new players being able to play higher life forms longer and more frequently. This is something @ironhorse has spoken about for some time now. If a new person goes fade they do not know what to do. They will die in probably under a minute and not know what they did wrong. Where is the time to learn? Even that would be a big balance change.
The wiki is not great for this. @Cannon_FodderAUS has a written manual he is always talking about. Here is his manual.
Without saying whether this would be a good or bad change, this is a core design component in ns2 and would be very hard to change. It would require and entire rebalance of the game. Maybe an idea for ns3? This is a core design issue with ns2. I don't have a problem with confined spaces in ns2. Marines become far stronger in wide open areas since they would have long lines of site. I honestly think it fits thematically because most maps are in some sort of space station or base. I would expect confined spaces personally. @corund, could you expand on this? I would really like to know more of your thoughts on this.
I think many want this. There are mostly frequent competitive events. The NSL, competitive league, is starting season 6 here soon. There are no prizes as far as I know. Who would pay for them? The community is pretty small as is. The last world cup almost didn't happen because of funding. If we could increase the player base, and a more active competitive scene came about, I think this would be great. Chicken and the egg though.