In the end… what is skill in NS2 ?

UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
Hi,

Discussing with some others “dude” about skill and what to do to progress in NS2. Somebody said “in the end... what is skill in NS2?”. I could only answer: “It's a... it's... really gonna be long to explain in details”. So I decided to leave it here as a comment so the answer is available for them as for anyone.


In the end… what is skill in NS2 ?
What a damn good question. No one will answer the same. Because no one plays the same. Usually you see some people that will specialize in some roles. It can be lifeforms, or team (Marine/Alien), and commanders of course. The oldest vets probably have a better “big picture” as they usually know all the roles and stuff. I tried here to compile my thoughts considering all the aspects, from commander to standard unit on the filed.


Can we say NS2 is the same as any other shooter? I guess not. One can't deny it's a hybrid FPS/RTS (some others talk about a niche market). And by being that precise thing, it's only natural that it has its precise set of dedicated skills. Note that FPS and hybrids can share common set skills. Aim is one of the obvious one.

I tend to distinguish many traits in players. But I can easily find groups in the list. I think it's not “skilled or not” that is important but many “skills or none”.


What would be the different skills a player should have in NS2?
Aim & moves
It is obvious that the FPS part is actually a part of NS. The better the aim the more chances in 1on1 you have. “Moves” are also good for a skulk to get close to the target as it is for a Marine to escape that encounter. Positioning in a room is also good to understand and is done differently between Aliens and Marines (different needs, possibilities, ranged vs close combat, etc.).


Understanding the game
What is a RT, a base/hive, and other structures. A decent NS player have to know a little about that. I'm still surprised to see some players choosing any random structure they see while it should be different.

Of course there will always be the debate about what to kill first in a base/hive. My version is a little more situational. Also it depends on what you can do at that moment.

For example - Importance of targets:
-Last base/hive: Minimum 2 units up to the whole team.
-Upgrades: if it doesn't cripples the enemy economy, it has the advantage to render every teammates upgrade-less which will help the rest of the your team. Usually one infiltrator or two.
-Resource towers (extractors/harvesters). The economy basic unit that no one should ignore.

-Marine specials:
-Observatory: killing the observatory force the enemy to come back to base by foot. Usually one infiltrator or two; or when rushing base. Stay the PG of course.
-Power node: disable a base and upgrades. Minimum 2 units up to whole team.

What I say is: a NS players efficiency is depending on this kind of knowledge. They will be much more efficient having in mind goals and priorities like that. It can be different between areas and how they play there, but it stays the same principle. You know what is what or you don't.


Teamwork (following order, responding to calls)
There is nothing to debate here. All can agree on it. The well organized team will get better results than a set of loose lone rangers.

The “knowing where to be” case (or 6th sense & survival)
The alien side have at disposal many lifeforms. One of the most accessible is the Gorge. What does it have to do with skill? I would say a gorge that knows where to go, how to avoid getting killed and finish the game (whatever the outcome) only dying once (or even 0 times). That guy has something really useful for the team. Same goes for Marine. Understanding where to be before somebody asks is a good thing.

Map knowledge
One that knows his way around will undoubtedly be more efficient than the one that doesn't. A player can respond to a call much faster if he has the path in mind. Of course waypoints are available but in stress situation, the commander has other things to do, and the player don't really pay attention to the WP while looking for a way (and eventually defend himself). It's a learning process. There is no instant downloading paths selection when they meet the map for the first time. It takes time.


The other factors which may not be considered as skill
PC
It is obvious that a PC that can handle the game with a decent frame rate (40~50 FPS or above) is preferrable to a PC that will provide 20 FPS. The mouse lag gets to be annoying and source of problems in the aim department. Also it will apparently make player more “laggy”. So does the PC has an effect on skill? I would say yes to an extent. But tweaking the PC and settings to get more FPS when you already have above 60 is kind of making big efforts for small results. At some point the so called skill isn't located in the wallet. Let's just say that a PC that is OK for NS should not get in the way of the “game experience”.

Internet connection
I've seen many gamers talk about that but many if not all, really don't know what they're talking about. Network is now a science and an industry that requires billions in term of currency, many people over several countries and many different technologies. So it's a science that allows transmission of porn IP packets, then services like HTTP (the web), mail and gaming stuff, etc.

The best situation is to have a minimal Traceroute (lowest number of hops (routers)) and a low ping (< 50). We know that in NS2, a ping flirting with 100 means many troubles and player adaptation for the one who has it and the others players as well. It's just not the same when all have a ping = 30.

I'll pass on the routing issues like returning path (B->A) different than the original (A->B) and many issues that comes with port channels for example. Like... One link in a set of two connecting the same routers is having CRC and the other don't. So it make things a little harder for applications as they have to sort packets first.

Let's just say that in a perfect world the packet sequence should be steady (no jitter) and packets are arriving to the destination (users) in the order they were emitted. Sequences like 1,2,3,4,5,6th packet is by far better than 1,3,2,5,6,4.

My beautiful mouse
Some have a mouse that can be programmed. Like assigning shortcut in a button and so on. Does it improve the player efficiency? Maybe. Maybe not. But one thing is for sure, with or without is a different thing that will provide different results. It would be a shame to see this mouse useful for nothing considering the price of these babes isn't it?



How would all this be sorted?
I don't think a number system can't answer to that. I think colors are way better. Colors don't have a hierarchy. The are what they are and they are usually associated with feelings and words. Ex: Red = Hot, Blue = Cold, Green = Venom, Pink = love etc.


What I would do
I would try to associate the colors with some skill using the meaning (if we can say that) of each color.

Red – Aiming and moves
Green – knowledge of game and reactivity / 6th sense
Blue – Knowledge of maps

We can have a graph with 3 poles to describe the skills.

Stay the question: How do we sample that? Can it be automatic? Probably yes. Does it require a big effort to implement? It requires time for sure, but saying it's really complicated: I wouldn't go so far.


Automatic stats?
Red:
It's pure performance and obviously one the most checked thing by players. It is by far the most visible (scoreboard).

Green:
This one can be tricky to sample. But if it's not directly it can be indirect.
Actions like
-Assist tell us that this unit is not alone all the time and by doing so sticking with his teammates.
-Welding / healing / building a structure or killing an enemy one is showing the understanding of the game.
-Getting there. The reactivity will be the most difficult. But maybe it is possible to measure it. There are some situations in which it is clearly “saving the day” vs “don't care”. One of the best example is the PG. If a PG is under attack and if a Marine is reaching it (teleporting there or running there) he is undoubtedly trying to help where it is needed; Same for tunnels and many structures. It just need to set a radius around the structure under attack and storing who was in and who was not (basically a vector length). +1 for those who are in the radius.

The 6th sense isn't only to know where you have to be but also a survival challenge. Gorge, Lerks, and Fades are primary targets in the eye of a Marine. The more they survive the more we can say they understand it, and that they aren't testing it... Usually when you test...

All this will not be precise with a small number of games. But for sure noone will grow the green score the same.


Blue:
I don't think we can measure directly and with great accuracy the “knowledge of maps”. Mostly because of some technical stuff.

Maybe having a table with all location entities stored in the player profile for each official map (truly nothing in term of space), and each time a player gets in a new location entity during the game, 1 is set for that one (internally first then sent to Hive stats). The problem is the ID of entities in maps shouldn't change over time (editor). I'm not sure it's the case. If a player gets a 1 for every location in a map he get closer to 100%

adding the scores for each map gives a number that can give an idea of what a player know or not.

Also we can assume the more time is passed in a map the more the player gets to know it. Say, a global score composed of many different scores (each map) and time. Then stays the little issue with custom maps. Are they included or not? I think it's not necessary.



First let's see how can it be traduced in terms of “skill”.

Let's use 3 numbers that will code for the colors (and it's easier to understand). A simple RGB notation is quite enough for getting it to show things.

Some examples
Rookie players (1-1-1 & 10-1-1)

1-1-1
Maybe having issue with FPS, he doesn't know much, obviously learning the game. He can progress but right now, from the commanders stance; he won't be the guy that saves the day. Again not much of a problem when the other team have the equivalent.

10-1-1
Good aim, but really low on the green and blue. That mean the guys is still learning the game. For a commander it's the kind of profile you never know how he will react to calls and emergencies. You can do something with that, but he isn't ready yet. Probably coming from another game like regular FPS.


Average player (5-10-5 & 10-5-5 & 5-5-10)

5-10-5
Decent aim, great game understanding and average map knowledge. It's already a good asset. He is probably a good gorge and eventually learning quite steadily the other lifeforms/weapons (SG).

10-5-5
Good aim, average game understanding, and map knowledge. It's not a rookie anymore. But maybe not the best team-worker ever. Some things have to be perfected. And maybe the map knowledge will eventually be a problem in case of an emergency.

5-5-10
Probably the one that wander in the maps long before joining publicly a server. The kind of profile that is thinking and preparing before doing something. Oh yeah. Will blossom as a great player.


Good to godlike (10-10-5 & 10-5-10 & 5-10-10)

10-10-5
I don't think we will see this happen. A guys that has that aim, and abilities but don't really know the maps... hmm maybe a new map came out. Reliable unit for sure.

10-5-10
This profile is a hunter more than a PG/tunnel saver. It doesn't mean he never does save the PG. Just that he likes action packed adventures.

5-10-10
Maybe he has a FPS issue, playing always gorge (less kills) or even playing on laggy servers. Still; it is reliable unit.

10-10-10: does it exists? Maybe; maybe not.


How would a game be balanced with these things in mind?

A commander will never want a team full of “Reds” profile. But he wouldn't want a team full of the other 2 colors either. I believe it's a mix between all 3 colors at least people who are able to take one or the other suit. You need pushers and you need builder / caretakers.

It would surely helps a captain mode. If you can see the colors you can select your pusher first... maybe, but then when it not about “Red” anymore, you wouldn't want the lowest of blue and green... right? So you would select then based on what they can achieve. A ninja gorge is sometimes a truly interesting asset isn't it.

Surely would help to set things right with automated solutions. The thing would be to create a mix of players instead of choosing the highest score, skill, whatever. By mixing skills and general behavior you ensure balance on many area at the same time.



Thing that can happen
Being locked in the same roles over and over
Not really as everybody has the 3 colors and has no colors at 0. You can't play NS2 and only progress as a Red one. At some point you need to understand the game rules and know the maps. After that it's all about organization but nothing can do that for player. It's up to team to produce teamwork.

Farming colors ?
What would be the point? To show you know the map is ok but it will be noticed if you don't. You can't fool a commander. And what would be the point if you want balanced game? And nothing different that we may have seen.

I got pink!
Well, I have a bad news...




So here it is, what i think about "skill in NS2".
(you may find grammar stuff, Eng isn't my first language, sorry)


ChubbChubbs ???

Reach me on NS2 forums in :
Map: Outer Rim Ark and Outer Rim Ark Edge
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Comments

  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members Posts: 352 Advanced user
    Dunno, for me the knowledge of maps is tied to the knowledge of the game. It is like something inseparable, and feels like limited number of 'positions'.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,730 Advanced user
    I don't think a number system can't answer to that. I think colors are way better. Colors don't have a hierarchy. The are what they are and they are usually associated with feelings and words. Ex: Red = Hot, Blue = Cold, Green = Venom, Pink = love etc.
    Everything can be quantified. Your idea putting colors to something is just putting a color to a number. Even a color has numbers. Such as fff000. You even use numbers below in your RGB values.


    I do agree with your breakdown of skill though into those three categories. I do like you suggest that differing ability in these three areas leads to different style of gameplay, or roles.

    I have long advocated for hive skill not being visible by the players so no one knows what it is, so no one can attempt to farm for it. I like your concept of colors on the fact it would reduce that behavior and increase team play.

    Relating this to the hive skill system, all three of those skill sets are all counted in the parameter of win and lose.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 876 Advanced user
    edited March 2015
    A very comprehensive post @UncleCrunch what you are thinking of skill representation is this?
    RCDEHhh.jpg?1

    A lot of the rating is relative, so your aim is relative to the peers you play against. I would wreck a newb team for aim, but against most other vets, it sux. And you have missed one skill I think is important in playing NS2 - Leadership. Its that X-factor to being able to make a call (whether you are Comm or not), to say lets do X and get a few of the team to pull it off with you.
    Author of a ePaper manual for NS2, now also a steam guide
    Co-wrote the Marine EXO Suit Protocol
    MuckyMcFlyYojimbo
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members Posts: 495 Advanced user
    edited March 2015
    Therius wrote: »
    I seriously cannot believe someone would actually want to replace the quantified system already in place that is based on statistical facts with something that only takes a few things into account that have been pulled out the arse of 'experts' endlessly debating which factors are the most important ones.

    What you're suggesting is like pricing a carton of milk by asking a random passer-by how many coins they have in their pocket instead of, I don't know, supply and demand.

    Many people realise the current skill system is not giving people an accurate or consistent reflection of their skill level.

    And supply&demand doesn't really affect milk prices in most countries, as numerous cartel scandals have revealed in recent years across the West have shown.
    SupaDupaNoodle
    I'm a signature virus :D Copy me into your signature!
    (Ribo @ Jan 2 2013, 10:43 AM) wrote »
     ##EMPHASIS ADDED##
    Ok, here is the problem. Every game, the aliens,in a pack, harass the marines to slowdown resource captures. The aliens save up for invisible, double armor rhinos. Everyone evolves into an invisible double armor rhino. The marines lose.


    Also, a good rule of thumb is that a rookie is equivalent to an empty player slot on a team.

  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    Many people realise the current skill system is not giving people an accurate or consistent reflection of their skill level.

    It's not as much of a 'realisation' than it is a gut feeling. What proof do people that this gut feeling is due to an actual misrepresentation rather than them not accepting that the system knows their skill better than they themselves?

    _INTER_meatmachine
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members Posts: 495 Advanced user
    I described my personal experience about 2 weeks ago on the other skill system thread. In short, even with better or best performance on a winning team consecutively, my skill rating continued to sink. This began AFTER I went comm a few rounds. Don't know if that messes things up. But others have written about similar issues. On the other hand, players who perform worse in damage/kd/win-loss get a consistent higher score which never dips down. I've pretty much given up on the skill scoring system and don't care what it shows any more. Taking the current system seriously is the height of foolishness in my opinion.
    SupaDupaNoodle
    I'm a signature virus :D Copy me into your signature!
    (Ribo @ Jan 2 2013, 10:43 AM) wrote »
     ##EMPHASIS ADDED##
    Ok, here is the problem. Every game, the aliens,in a pack, harass the marines to slowdown resource captures. The aliens save up for invisible, double armor rhinos. Everyone evolves into an invisible double armor rhino. The marines lose.


    Also, a good rule of thumb is that a rookie is equivalent to an empty player slot on a team.

  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    On the other hand, players who perform worse in damage/kd/win-loss get a consistent higher score which never dips down.

    There is nothing in the algorithm that would justify this. The algorithm doesn't give or take points on a whim, there is always a reason to do that. You say 'consistently', yet there is no proof of this consistency other than you saying you saw it happen. Unless you can show a specific fault in the algorithm that leads to this or record an event that proves that the actual player skill evolution violates the algorithm, there is no reason to believe anything else than that your experiences are the result of psychological bias, i.e. it only SEEMS that things like this happen.

    meatmachine
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members Posts: 495 Advanced user
    edited March 2015
    Therius wrote: »
    On the other hand, players who perform worse in damage/kd/win-loss get a consistent higher score which never dips down.

    There is nothing in the algorithm that would justify this. The algorithm doesn't give or take points on a whim, there is always a reason to do that. You say 'consistently', yet there is no proof of this consistency other than you saying you saw it happen. Unless you can show a specific fault in the algorithm that leads to this or record an event that proves that the actual player skill evolution violates the algorithm, there is no reason to believe anything else than that your experiences are the result of psychological bias, i.e. it only SEEMS that things like this happen.

    Yeeeeesssssss Agent Smith..... the Matrix is perfect.

    Ah, the hard line is ringing, I'm answering it and going back to the real world.
    SupaDupaNoodle
    I'm a signature virus :D Copy me into your signature!
    (Ribo @ Jan 2 2013, 10:43 AM) wrote »
     ##EMPHASIS ADDED##
    Ok, here is the problem. Every game, the aliens,in a pack, harass the marines to slowdown resource captures. The aliens save up for invisible, double armor rhinos. Everyone evolves into an invisible double armor rhino. The marines lose.


    Also, a good rule of thumb is that a rookie is equivalent to an empty player slot on a team.

  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 822 Advanced user
    edited March 2015
    Because your red axis is very different for Aliens and Marines, also green and blue category can hardly be measured, you take the easy way out of this dilemma: W/L ratio. Red, Green, Blue affecting W/L, so the only way accounting all 3 axis in a meaningful consistent way. Ofc you could always go back to the 1-dimensional narrow world of Red (where only playing Marine or Fade actually matters, also don't Skulk)

    Many people realise the current skill system is not giving people an accurate or consistent reflection of their skill level.
    Most of those people think they're rambo aim / KDR isn't taken into account enough for the skill system. Aka: "We lost the game, but look at my positve score. My teammembers must all suck hard".

    The dispute is actually for what percentage does each category contribute to a win.
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members Posts: 495 Advanced user
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    Most of those people think they're rambo aim / KDR isn't taken into account enough for the skill system. Aka: "We lost the game, but look at my positve score. My teammembers must all suck hard".

    Grow up and face criticism like an adult.
    SupaDupaNoodle
    I'm a signature virus :D Copy me into your signature!
    (Ribo @ Jan 2 2013, 10:43 AM) wrote »
     ##EMPHASIS ADDED##
    Ok, here is the problem. Every game, the aliens,in a pack, harass the marines to slowdown resource captures. The aliens save up for invisible, double armor rhinos. Everyone evolves into an invisible double armor rhino. The marines lose.


    Also, a good rule of thumb is that a rookie is equivalent to an empty player slot on a team.

  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    Therius wrote: »
    On the other hand, players who perform worse in damage/kd/win-loss get a consistent higher score which never dips down.

    There is nothing in the algorithm that would justify this. The algorithm doesn't give or take points on a whim, there is always a reason to do that. You say 'consistently', yet there is no proof of this consistency other than you saying you saw it happen. Unless you can show a specific fault in the algorithm that leads to this or record an event that proves that the actual player skill evolution violates the algorithm, there is no reason to believe anything else than that your experiences are the result of psychological bias, i.e. it only SEEMS that things like this happen.

    Yeeeeesssssss Agent Smith..... the Matrix is perfect.

    Ah, the hard line is ringing, I'm answering it and going back to the real world.

    This is a lazy cop out that fits into the mouth of someone who does not understand the basic principles behind statistics, i.e. simple mathematics.

    An algorithm based on mathematics assessing raw, unmanipulated data is infinitely better than 'expert knowledge', as we don't have to worry about stupid opinions, wrong opinions, arrogant opinions, psychologically biased opinions, or any opinions for that matter.

    Mathematics doesn't ask for your opinion. It works. If it doesn't, it's not because the world is not governed by mathematical rules, it's because we, as humans, have made some kind of mistake in specifying the model. If you believe that we have, then show it. Show how the algorithm fails, without leaning on opinions or individual personal examples. Otherwise it just looks like you're throwing a tantrum because you got less ice-cream than others when in reality you just gobbled it down faster.

  • OtsOts Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Members, Constellation Posts: 780 Fully active user
    Sorry if this seems like a silly question but, are you lot talking about the current hive ranking system in ns2? I'm not sure if i should be laughing or taking you guys seriously. :/
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,826 admin
    Ots wrote: »
    Sorry if this seems like a silly question but, are you lot talking about the current hive ranking system in ns2? I'm not sure if i should be laughing or taking you guys seriously. :/

    No, they're pondering the meaning of "what does it mean to be good at NS2".
  • krOozekrOoze Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Members Posts: 278 Fully active user
    edited March 2015
    Therius wrote: »
    An algorithm based on mathematics assessing raw, unmanipulated data is infinitely better than 'expert knowledge'.
    Doing math is still only a formalized automated "expert knowledge". Also math has no meaning of itself only. Math must be used in purpose in mind. And it was done by some experts for NS2 based on their biases.
    Many people realise the current skill system is not giving people an accurate or consistent reflection of their skill level.
    They should use (self-)reflection to evaluate their skill level. Skill Point system should serve one and only one purpose of doing matchmaking. (Yes, IMHO I think the math behind is sub-par for that purpose)

    @BeigeAlert Good point too. Do not cofuse "skills" and "Skill", people.
    BeigeAlert
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    Everyone keeps talking about how the math is flawed and does not apply to the actual situation. Yet no one so far has been able to point out what exactly is wrong with the math. Can you not see how you're walking in circles?

    krOoze wrote: »
    Doing math is still only a formalized automated "expert knowledge". Also math has no meaning of itself only. Math must be used in purpose in mind. And it was done by some experts for NS2 based on their biases.

    This is not true. Mathematics is objective and universal. Mathematical theorems and statistics that have been based on them are not biased by psychology or opinions in any way. Mathematics is not just some kind of agreed upon system that someone came up with, mathematics is how the world around us works. Mathematical theorems and constants have always existed, the way we jot them down on paper is just a representation of those absolute facts of nature.

    The models themselves may be flawed, but that is not the fault of mathematics. That is the fault of the people who applied mathematics in a wrong way. This is my entire point. If you are of the opinion that mathematics does not work, you are wrong. If you are of the opinion that people responsible of the skill system have applied mathematics incorrectly, SHOW it. Point out a line of code, a mathematical equation or an assumption that is wrong or unrealistic in the given context. So far your arguments center around personal experiences and a gut feeling of how "this can't be right because this is not how I think". You keep coming up with alternative systems but fail to address what is wrong with the current one, aside from "it just doesn't work because I think so".
    Nordicmeatmachinedragonmith
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,730 Advanced user
    If anyone wants a refresher on how the hive skill system works, read this. https://moultano.wordpress.com/2014/08/04/a-skill-ranking-system-for-natural-selection-2/
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    Theriusdragonmith
  • krOozekrOoze Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Members Posts: 278 Fully active user
    edited March 2015
    @Therius I can say 1=3 mathematically. It does not make it objective nor universal nor without bias. Mathematics is just another tool, it does not have life and mind of its own.
    Therius wrote: »
    Everyone keeps talking about how the math is flawed and does not apply to the actual situation. Yet no one so far has been able to point out what exactly is wrong with the math.
    Are you sure? No one? Is this statistically speaking?
    Therius wrote: »
    Mathematics is not just some kind of agreed upon system that someone came up with, mathematics is how the world around us works.
    It is exactly that. It is a tool. It is a language to be exact. A agreed upon framework to describe your ideas(e.g. how the world around us works).
    Therius wrote: »
    Mathematical theorems and constants have always existed, the way we jot them down on paper is just a representation of those absolute facts of nature.
    Every number is a constant. It jumps up to existence when you make a definition of something(e.g. integers, complex numbers). You can make as many constants as you want and more. They represent some idea you are communicating. You are making the same rational mistake some religious people do.
    Therius wrote: »
    If you are of the opinion that mathematics does not work, you are wrong. If you are of the opinion that people responsible of the skill system have applied mathematics incorrectly
    If you are of the opinion that mathematics does not work, you are wrong.
    "Mathematics does not work" usualy mean the mathematics were applied incorrectly to a problem, in normal speech. Do not play dumb. No one is claiming the reality started to dissolve or something.
    Therius wrote: »
    If you are of the opinion that people responsible of the skill system have applied mathematics incorrectly, SHOW it.
    For example one which I encountered last: There is not separate Skill grades for marine and alien. That is your aggregate Skill is something in between at best, giving large error to your game win prediction.
    Which does perhaps bothers me the most: What value exactly does a SP have? Is there a defined relation between 2000 SP player and 1000 SP player other that the 2000 is vaguely better? The edge case of 0 SP player is perhaps the worse (is he truly mathematically speaking infinitely worse than any player with possitive value?). What happens when I do arithmetic mean of such a scale for FET purposes?

    If you read the paper(can someone vouch it is the exact and updated one used in the game?), it is quite riddled with unverified assumptions.

    Sorry about the tone. Got a little angry there. ~X(

    EDIT: Besides there's not exactly any proof presented, that it is correct. You are the one claiming it's infallible, you prove it!
    EDIT2: Mission accomplished! I think I successfully killed this fine thread :p
    Post edited by krOoze on
  • CyberKunCyberKun Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 336 Fully active user
    I like the idea of colors representing skills. You can call this system, 'Color Skills'

    Tis like how I rate maps based off of a system of measurements on how much it looks like a cat. I call this system, 'Cat Skills'. Funny how they make as much sense.
    Cyber_kun: Not going to invade again
    Cyber_kun: Well, least not in the area that requires you to run forever
    Lolgorgeous: np i appreciate you wasting 30 minutes of my time anyway

    ~~Dark Souls~~
    Therius
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Everything can be quantified. Your idea putting colors to something is just putting a color to a number. Even a color has numbers. Such as fff000. You even use numbers below in your RGB values.

    I do agree with your breakdown of skill though into those three categories. I do like you suggest that differing ability in these three areas leads to different style of gameplay, or roles.

    I have long advocated for hive skill not being visible by the players so no one knows what it is, so no one can attempt to farm for it. I like your concept of colors on the fact it would reduce that behavior and increase team play.

    Relating this to the hive skill system, all three of those skill sets are all counted in the parameter of win and lose.
    Yes, you understand my point. It's just colors are faster to recognize. I'm not keen on a UNIQUE number. If i was beginning a game in Captain mode right now; i would rely more on the "nicknames" (the ones i can recognize) than on a unique skill number.

    A very comprehensive post @UncleCrunch what you are thinking of skill representation is this?
    Yes that kind. We can have many vectors. I tried to crack it down to 3 so one Captain/commander can have an idea faster. We can do big graphs/charts but is would take more time for the selection. It's a thing to see "fast an easy" what a player can do. But nothing prevents a website to display many more categories.

    _INTER_ wrote: »
    Because your red axis is very different for Aliens and Marines, also green and blue category can hardly be measured, you take the easy way out of this dilemma: W/L ratio. Red, Green, Blue affecting W/L, so the only way accounting all 3 axis in a meaningful consistent way. Ofc you could always go back to the 1-dimensional narrow world of Red (where only playing Marine or Fade actually matters, also don't Skulk)
    We can invent anything. Yes alien plays differently. But one can address that with weight or an average. Of course it's a delicate thing to do. But not impossible.

    On the technical measurements. when i say it's not impossible, it's more like i already thought about that (;)). Simple vectors and lengths. I suspect we already have what is needed. Example : The maximum distance at which the engine will decide to display entities or not (too far) is already there. You can see that thing in NS2_NOTHING, there is a long LOS on Viaduc if i remember correctly. See the thread in mapping. I posted something about this in it.

    Then a compiled number with all the sub-categories is the same problem. Giving to each a weight. It may take time, yes. But at least i got an idea of what this player is capable of.

    Simpler : If i meet a player for the first time i would ask:
    -How good is your aim ?
    -What is a PG ? (or any structure)
    -Do you know that map ?


    If anyone want a good picture... hmmm... Have you ever been in a bad day? Probably yes. It happens from time to time. Then you decide to play NS2, because it a really good game and lots'o'fun in there.

    You decide to take the chair, because you know the deal. You know you have good shots (REDs on fire) at disposal in your team. Last game scoreboard helped to see that. So you are confident. the game starts and then they all rush and nobody build anything at base. You have a bunch of pistoleros to support with only blue prints at base and RT blue prints as res income. They just rush. No surprise we loose. Ironic isn't it?

    That is what i call a legendary bad day. If i could have known this or could have swapped one of them with a player that don't aim like a cyborg but build everything i drop. I would have done this 10 times of 10. It's not about only rookies and gap between vets vs rookies for me. One Unique number won't help me on that matter, far from it.
    ChubbChubbs ???

    Reach me on NS2 forums in :
    Map: Outer Rim Ark and Outer Rim Ark Edge
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    krOoze wrote: »
    @Therius I can say 1=3 mathematically. mathematically. It does not make it objective nor universal nor without bias.
    Lol. What are you talking about?? Yea you can write a false statement on paper with the notations we use in mathematics - but the abstract truth claims behind them are universal and objective.
    The statement 1 = 3 , is false because it violates the law of identity and law of non-contradiction. 1 can not be 3 and 1 at the same time in the same way, and 1 can not be not-1.

    When we talk about mathematics, we don't mean the notations we use - THAT is just a tool. Because you could write mathematics in pure english or latin or whatever - in fact that is what some of the early scientists did.
    krOoze wrote: »
    EDIT: Besides there's not exactly any proof presented, that it is correct. You are the one claiming it's infallible, you prove it!

    There's another thread going on parallel to this one where Nordic posted some analysis' (wtf is the plural of that?), that looks like they purport to what you'd expect from a model that works for the most part so far.
    NordicTheriusdragonmith
  • krOozekrOoze Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Members Posts: 278 Fully active user
    @UncleCrunch I mean, do the skilled guys need to be orderered about by commander in the first place in your color system? If not, what is the purpose of it? If yes, are they in fact skilled?
  • krOozekrOoze Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Members Posts: 278 Fully active user
    edited March 2015
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    krOoze wrote: »
    @Therius I can say 1=3 mathematically. mathematically. It does not make it objective nor universal nor without bias.
    Lol. What are you talking about?? Yea you can write a false statement
    What are you talking about? I was writing in modulo 2 of course. :P
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,730 Advanced user
    krOoze wrote: »
    @UncleCrunch I mean, do the skilled guys need to be orderered about by commander in the first place in your color system? If not, what is the purpose of it? If yes, are they in fact skilled?

    A commander has a view that no other player does, and can keep track of intel better. He has the better vantage of which to give orders from. There are field commanders that fulfill that role also, but they don't have the top down view.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    edited March 2015
    @krOoze

    I take it you have never studied mathematics, statistics or, for example, physics at a tertiary level.

    krOoze wrote: »
    I can say 1=3 mathematically. It does not make it objective nor universal nor without bias. Mathematics is just another tool, it does not have life and mind of its own.

    This is exactly what I addressed in my post. It's not the fault of mathematics, it's the fault of people applying it. You say 1=3, which is a mathematical statement. This mathematical statement can be disproven with the fact that one does not equal to three (I could prove this with mathematical axioms, but I think we can agree that one does not equal three without going into details). Likewise, moultano says his skill system works according to mathematical and statistical rationale present in his paper. Can you disprove his statements in the same way I disproved yours? Can you show me that, at some point in his paper, moultano insists that one equals three, thus invalidating the model? No one so far has.

    If you think that mathematics is just a system created by man, you are wrong. So unbelievably, undeniably, thoroughly wrong. Go ask any mathematician, statistician or physicist on the planet, and they'll tell you why. If you still, facing this vast wall of data and scientific reasoning, insist on thinking that, then maybe you should take a long look in the mirror and ask yourself whether you are the right person to be making statements about these issues.

    krOoze wrote: »
    For example one which I encountered last: There is not separate Skill grades for marine and alien. That is your aggregate Skill is something in between at best, giving large error to your game win prediction.
    Which does perhaps bothers me the most: What value exactly does a SP have? Is there a defined relation between 2000 SP player and 1000 SP player other that the 2000 is vaguely better? The edge case of 0 SP player is perhaps the worse (is he truly mathematically speaking infinitely worse than any player with possitive value?). What happens when I do arithmetic mean of such a scale for FET purposes?

    The separate skill levels of marines and aliens has already been discussed, and moultano is thinking of implementing it. It is a problem that has been admitted months ago, and is being worked on. It still has absolutely nothing to do with w/l being a bad metric to determine skill level.

    If you look at moultano's paper, it would directly answer your second question, i.e. what is the defined relation of players with different skill levels. Simply enter the different skill levels into the algorithm and it will give you the probability of the other team winning. It's as simple as that. The defined, exact relation between players with 2000 and 1000 skill could be, for example, that the player with 2000 skill has a 97% chance of beating the player with 1000 skill (numbers not exact, just an example). The defined, exact relation between players with 1000 and 0 skill could be, for example, that the player with 1000 skill has a 99.9% chance of beating the player with 0 skill. Just visit moultano's paper and see how the skill rating is defined to answer these questions. If you can find something off with the definition, please do share it with us. That would be much more constructive than throwing around rhetorical questions and 'contrary evidence' without having a single idea of how the skill rating variable is defined.

    krOoze wrote: »
    EDIT: Besides there's not exactly any proof presented, that it is correct. You are the one claiming it's infallible, you prove it!

    It's already been proved. Look at the goddamn paper that's even been linked in this thread for your convenience.
  • krOozekrOoze Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Members Posts: 278 Fully active user
    Therius wrote: »
    Can you disprove his statements in the same way I disproved yours?
    Certainly, I can easily disprove him by ad hominem attacks.
    But lets start with you(I kinda like the Moultano guy). Are you in some sort of Pythagorean cult or something?
    Therius wrote: »
    It's already been proved. Look at the goddamn paper that's even been linked in this thread for your convenience.
    I did. It contains definitions, claims and relatively dangerous assumptions, no proofs. I mean its still nice work. It is slightly better than random and way better than people assigning themselves to teams in practice. But it simply is not the thing you present it to be.

  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    Therius wrote: »
    If you think that mathematics is just a system created by man, you are wrong. So unbelievably, undeniably, thoroughly wrong. Go ask any mathematician, statistician or physicist on the planet, and they'll tell you why. If you still, facing this vast wall of data and scientific reasoning, insist on thinking that, then maybe you should take a long look in the mirror and ask yourself whether you are the right person to be making statements about these issues.
    Mathematics is certainly man-made. So is philosophy, astronomy, astrology, religion, ethics etc.
    The truth claims made by these systems however, are all true and false with or without man.
    Without a mind to perceive them, there is no mathematics or philosophy. But there is truth with or without minds.

    In a universe with no minds, the truth remains that a rock is still a rock.
    vartija
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,730 Advanced user
    edited March 2015
    This thread has become surprisingly philosophical. In a universe with no minds, the truth remains that a rock is still a rock. We humans with minds have simply named it a rock. In a universe with no minds, the truth remains that gravity is still gravity, a universal force. In a universe with no minds, the truth remains that a math is still math, the literal coding language of the universe. In a universe with no minds, who is even there to say there is truth, rocks, gravity, or math? If we weren't here to say they exist would they even exist? This question makes me think of relativism which is a topic I do enjoy.



    I don't remember what theory it is, but there is a theory that everything can be quantified and put into a formula including algebra, the 10 dimensions, gravity, or emotions. That does mean everything, including someones skill in ns2. Does the hive system capture that parameter well? I certainly think so. The number 2000 for skill doesn't make much sense to me, and I don't really know how to compare it to a person with 1500 skill.

    One thing I do know is that I have about an 1800 skill according to hive. When I play against someone who has 2000 skill, they feel (subjective) many magnitudes better than I am. When I play with someone who is 1600 skill they feel definitively not as good as I am. By "as good" I do mean I can see something in their game play that they do differently. Either in how they move or in their decision making process. Is anyone else able to know what player a marine is by how they move, if they play with them often? I can sometimes even tell the relative skill of a player by how they move. The data I have collected, as shown in many graphs, does seem to show that the hive system is working as intended whether or not I know how to comprehend what the number 1234 means.

    Another thing that is really hard to understand how to compare is decibels. Decibel is a non linear measurement, where 80 decibels is not double the loudness 40 decibels. 80 decibels is not infinitely louder than 0 decibels. We all understand that 80 decibels is a hell of a lot louder than 40 decibels though. http://geoffthegreygeek.com/understanding-decibels/
    decibel-table.png

    Ad hominem. HA! That makes me laugh and if the discussion here wasn't so serious I would think it was trolling. The best trolls are the ones who seem 100% serious though.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • dragonmithdragonmith Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182817Members, Reinforced - Diamond Posts: 429 Fully active user
    But does 0.99 recurring equal to 1?
    Howser is da BEST!
    Nordic
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