Pressure rather than oxygen.

NorthOfEarthNorthOfEarth Chicago, IL Join Date: 2014-01-04 Member: 192197Members
Right now the main progression hurdle is finding a way to breathe underwater longer - upgrading tanks, then larger and larger subs. The base oxygen tank only lasts half a minute, which seems like an artificial limit. Meanwhile, at a depth of two kilometers I can happily swim about in the crushing waters with no ill effects for the same length of time.

Using pressure as a limit is much more interesting. It provides a physical barrier to progression without the player having to surface and dive repeatedly, and it makes damage to submersibles a matter of death rather than a matter of losing resources.

Forcing the player to swim for only thirty seconds per tank stifles the joy of exploration and clogs the inventory. In reality, oxygen tanks can last nearly an hour at shallow depths. Below a certain depth, the player should be unable to leave the vehicle. It adds to the sense of claustrophobia and requires more delicate and clever ways of interacting with creatures and the environment - maybe some kind of sub with pincer arms?

Example progression:
Nothing - 20 meters
Dive mask - 50 meters
Better wet suit - 100 meters
Hard diving suit - 200 meters
Small sub - 500 meters
Large sub - 1000 meters
Deep-sea explorer - 2000 meters

Comments

  • BandersaurBandersaur Australia Join Date: 2014-10-25 Member: 199120Members
  • NiklasdiverNiklasdiver Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146675Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2015
    Water makes up 70% of the human body so we are hard to crush. The current scuba dive record lies at 332 meters. In reality gas mixture is a much greater threat than pressure. Don't know how the human body would behave past maybe 500 meters, at some point your lungs would have to take some serious damage.
  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Example progression:
    Nothing - 20 meters
    Dive mask - 50 meters
    Better wet suit - 100 meters
    Hard diving suit - 200 meters
    Small sub - 500 meters
    Large sub - 1000 meters
    Deep-sea explorer - 2000 meters

    Agreed. The very start of the game you should have no equipment, and have a limited diving depth and oxygen supply since you're holding your breath. The game should have an opening tutorial to have the player build a wet suit from basic materials (silicone + glass) and an oxygen tank. This introduces new players to the resource gathering system and how to play the game. Later on you can upgrade your diving suit to go deeper, and eventually, build an exosuit for really deep depths.

    Oxygen should last a long time at shallow depths once you get your wet suit + oxygen tank. As you go deeper you breathe heavier and use oxygen faster, requiring another oxygen tank, and maybe a player upgrade from DNA research from that air sack fish will helps your lungs retain oxygen longer. I think its a bit silly to have to carry around 3+ oxygen tanks, so if that stays in, they should be 1x2 size in the inventory.



  • SeldkamSeldkam Join Date: 2014-01-01 Member: 191213Members
    Too hand holdy, IMO

    Also, the player begins in some kind of rather strong clothing , so unless its for making a fashion statement I think 20 meters is frankly absurd in a game about exploring
  • SpiffMoonWalkerSpiffMoonWalker Canada Join Date: 2015-02-01 Member: 201154Members
    edited February 2015
    I think this all delves into the question of how realistic (in present day terms) to make the diving. Several other threads go into that already.

    Btw if we're talking realistic, 'strong clothing' is irrelevant to snorkelling depth, just as a better wetsuit is irrelevant to scuba depth (except if we're talking about for thermal insulation purposes, perhaps). Most trained divers snorkelling down to 20m, or 66 ft, (with weights & fins) would need to head back up for air before they really had time to do any useful work or exploring. Some of the fitter ones might accomplish a bit... but would still need a breather between trips. My point is without proper scuba gear 20m is a very realistic (perhaps even generous) limit for getting anything at all done. As for pressure, that does play a limiting factor in scuba diving - by increasing the rate at which you breathe your air/gas supply (time constraint) and limiting how deep you can go without suffering adverse effects of the partial pressure of the gasses you're breathing (narcosis, causticity & decompression issues - this has nothing to do with being physically crushed: take away the gas issues and the human body can withstand quite a lot of pressure.)

    Now to the point - how much diving realism will the devs decide to put in? If the sci-fi adventure aspect of the game is what takes priority, then only what diving realism they can without impacting the fun factor in terms of the sci-fi adventure game.
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    I have trouble diving to the bottom of a ten foot deep pool now a days. Last night I went down underneath the ocean, I think. It's flat down there.
    gW6sKvw.jpg
    And then it broke on me and froze up. I'm too deep, bb.
    nIfXIH6.jpg

    How am I alive at 3000M depth? LOL
  • SrCumferenceSrCumference Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3740Members
    edited February 2015
    I do like the concept of oxygen as a limit, and I can only assume that once things like the exosuit are implemented we will see more restrictions on depth outside of subs.

    I have to admit, I was super confused after I built my first seamoth and went deep in a cave to find gold. I couldn't tell if I should be able to pick it up in my sub, and I didn't think I could survive outside of it. I did end up chancing it and was glad I could survive, but it did seem out of place(although appreciated, I really wanted that gold!).

    I do also kind of expect or would hope that we could someday either build oxygen tanks that last longer for the same inventory space, or be able to upgrade existing tanks to increase how much air they can hold. Or even just the genetic splicing to increase effectiveness.

    I don't mind the trade-off of needing to decide what kind of gear I will need for an outing, and deciding if I want to load up super heavy on oxygen tanks or leave more room to grab more phat l3wtz should be a part of the game, I think, but I do want a way to increase my bang for my buck(at least a little) as I progress. I would also settle for increased inventory space, but if that gets too big I worry that it might deter from the mothership-ness importance of bases and subs like the Cyclops. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like knowing that I am far from home increases my sense of isolation and fear. I like that.

    In short I trust UWE to make the right decisions, and imagine that both oxygen and pressure will be important factors as our options to deal with them increase (anybody else notice that exosuit blueprint in experimental? Couldn't build it, but I saw it!) And I like the idea of having a couple different suits available.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Join Date: 2014-01-01 Member: 191213Members
    edited February 2015
    My point was this: "Strong" in this sense means I think he probably DOES have a high-tech wetsuit on. Even in our planes today, they are equipped with multi-functioning ways of helping passengers escape over water or land, I was thinking this suit probably is meant to withstand low depths since, well, the beginning shows him in what looks like a space suit? All I was trying to say is that 20m is just silly, and that that is making this game too realistic... if it even is lol

    Also, keep in mind that depth hasn't really been implemented as a feature I don't think?
  • SpiffMoonWalkerSpiffMoonWalker Canada Join Date: 2015-02-01 Member: 201154Members
    Seldkam, gotcha, I think we're sort of on the same page there... It's a sci-fi game after all. A realistic diving game is something I would really enjoy, but I do not think the sci-fi setting here is a good fit for too much realism. My point was that if the devs WERE going to introduce measures intended to make the diving seem more realistic, those measures should be realistic. Apologies if I offended (or just sounded anal).
  • SeldkamSeldkam Join Date: 2014-01-01 Member: 191213Members
    Lol, I just thought your ideas for realism had some flaws, that's all-- I didn't mean to offend either. I understand how hard it is to keep things civil over the internet, Cheers!

    As for adding some realistic elements, that would be awesome, I just think that what was specifically suggested was much too restrictive
  • LumpNLumpN Join Date: 2002-10-30 Member: 1725Members, Subnautica Developer
    I can give you some insight into the thoughts of the development team on this. You could probably find out all of this by looking at our Trello boards for game design and production. Both are public.

    We do all agree that we want a sense of meaningful progression in the game. Oxygen, food, and water are a start. Of course we also want to use pressure as a gameplay mechanism. We also want lots of other things. Right now we feel like the ability to build underwater bases is more important than annoying the player with pressure warnings. We need to make sure to get pressure base gameplay right. Otherwise it will feel like food, water, and oxygen feel right now: annoying.

    We understand that the game doesn't feel like a balanced game yet. A lot of things are out of order in terms of meaningful progression. That is because we have not balanced the game yet. But from a production perspective it is too early to think about all those things that will make the game feel balanced because we don't even have all the stuff in the game you as a player can do yet.

    We could balance the game right now and it would make for a much better Early Access experience. We could spend a lot of time implementing, fixing, and tweaking all the gameplay mechanics revolving around food, water, oxygen, and pressure. But it would reduce our ability to add content and it would likely need to be reworked completely eventually. It might be worthwhile doing anyway because we have a lot of Early Access gamers and we are giving them a very unpolished experience.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Join Date: 2014-01-01 Member: 191213Members
    ^If I could, I would spam like the drawing under the "Progression Constraints" in the game design. Especially since I saw multiple submarines :P but yes I agree with what the Devs are doing now, we just are doing what people on forums do: agree and/or disagree :P
  • The_HawkThe_Hawk South Africa Join Date: 2015-02-12 Member: 201321Members
    Hi all new here just bought the game loveing whats on play at the moment cant wait for my badge to arrive, but more to the point i personally would love to see pressure and o2 limitations placed on the dives. But im sure the game devs have good resons for not having it be too realistic as realisim can ruin fun and part of the big attraction is the fun of exploring, man the amount of times i would have died if 20m was the limmit, soo easy to get distracted while looking for stuff. if you look at diveing they can go to about 30m but on the way up need to make 2 stops of about 10min to avoid the bends so time on the bottom is limmited a hell of allot so far i acctuly approve of the systems they have in place .....mabey in a extra hard mode we can get pressure limitations ....who knows jut my 2 cents.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Join Date: 2014-01-01 Member: 191213Members
    Well, adding tanks that add oxygen does make sense? Sure having 6 tanks is silly, that's agreed, but I'm not sure what you mean by O2 Limitations?

    As for the bends, well, I would hope hundreds of years into the future we would figure out a way to do something about that :P
Sign In or Register to comment.