More CompMod additions to Pub???

RaZDaZ

So after the initial rush has settled from the "first" iteration of CompMod making its way into vanilla or public NS2, a lot of people agree that it brought some very positive and well received changes to the main game.

My question is pretty short and simple, will we see more balance changes from CompMod implemented into NS2 public?

HMGs, 90 gore damage, shade hive changes, flamethrower changes (this would be really interesting for pub games), cluster nade buff, regen changes, corrode marine damage reduction, etc. Some really awesome ideas that could freshen the game up and breathe a bit of new life into the game. I don't expect all the changes to enter if it is planned but implementing a few each patch I believe could be good for the game in both a short term and long term manner. At least consider the opportunity to add big additions like the HMG but of course, we can't make assumptions that making a significant addition like the HMG would be balanced for pub but just something to think about.

At least from my perspective, I only have 1 viable option late game as marine in pubs and thats JP/shotgun or just shotgun. GL isn't reliable enough, FL is niche at best and Exosuit is too clunky and inflexible compared to the JP. Adding in HMG can be (if balanced) really awesome to mix things up every now and then.

Thanks.

Hoeloe

I need to say: Plz no. CompMod balancechanges are specially for 6vs6 games. Those changes are good if you play 6vs6 but in my opinion for public it would nerf the Khamms hardly. Exo's with welders who can use Phasegates, #Yololauncher that has no minimum detonation time, lerkgas only for biomass 7... A lot of those changes would kill public balance.
Also I don't like the shadehive changes. Shadehive start almost only 10% (maybe less) of all games and now you wanna nerf so we never start wih shade?
All I could live with is the HMG's if they can be balanced in Pub.
Greetings

MaxAmus

Some of the changes in comp mod would be great to have in pub, more servers should maybe try the mod and get a feel for it, but I have more fun games when playing with comp mod,
https://docs.google.com/document/d/16niWkYVm7KfDgtwDyWQDQgkvMejr0VE-KxD7bNA95pk/mobilebasic

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oIsqF--0homZgnzLgSlrqckQM2R4f0tRcx9ZLPyPwno/mobilebasic

Exos can't use pg.

DC_Darkling

if I play comp mod in pub, I do it because all other servers of reasonable size were full or empty.
I shall never voluntarily play comp mod on pub, it shall always be partially forced. Yes I play comp, no I dont truly like comp mod.

turtsmcgurt

i think the only important thing here is that gorge bhop gets put into the actual game. until then, more servers running comp mod the better.

Frozen

turtsmcgurt wrote: »

i think the only important thing here is that gorge bhop gets put into the actual game. until then, more servers running comp mod the better.

Wait, is there gorge bhop? I havent gorged yet. Tell me now.

Also, more on topic, I do believe that balancing for 6v6 improves public play. So I see no reason that comp mod isn't already just implemented through more frequent patching, just for those changes. People just don't like change, then they complain about the game being stale. I dont know, its silly.

Nordic

mattji104 wrote: »

turtsmcgurt wrote: »

i think the only important thing here is that gorge bhop gets put into the actual game. until then, more servers running comp mod the better.

Wait, is there gorge bhop? I havent gorged yet. Tell me now.

Also, more on topic, I do believe that balancing for 6v6 improves public play. So I see no reason that comp mod isn't already just implemented through more frequent patching, just for those changes. People just don't like change, then they complain about the game being stale. I dont know, its silly.

You think balancing the game more towards 6v6 when most pub servers are 12v12 is a good thing?

I am not giving any opinion on this matter, but that was a silly statement.

Cannon_FodderAUS

6v6 balance can't be used for pubs (8v8+). The main problem is things don't really scale linear. Eg. in 6v6 you would not have a gl (normally), as you lose sustained dps vs. life forms, but in a pub, with so many more players, it is actually ok to have 2 gl in the team as you have other players that can stay lmg or go sg. The life form HP doesn't scale up, so as the number of guns in a squad go up, they are easier to kill (relative to a 6v6). Some things translate well (such as game play mechanics), but weapons etc... need to take into account the increased player count.

Frozen

Nordic wrote: »

mattji104 wrote: »

turtsmcgurt wrote: »

i think the only important thing here is that gorge bhop gets put into the actual game. until then, more servers running comp mod the better.

Wait, is there gorge bhop? I havent gorged yet. Tell me now.

Also, more on topic, I do believe that balancing for 6v6 improves public play. So I see no reason that comp mod isn't already just implemented through more frequent patching, just for those changes. People just don't like change, then they complain about the game being stale. I dont know, its silly.

You think balancing the game more towards 6v6 when most pub servers are 12v12 is a good thing?

I am not giving any opinion on this matter, but that was a silly statement.

That's how I feel about balancing for a balance between two other balances

WasabiOne

there is no plan as of right now to include more of the COMPmod changes. Thats not to say there wont be some balance changes soon, but at the moment nothing is even planned.

Seb

None of the compmod changes really impact public matches anyways, a lot of the differences are player size independent. I've said this before and I'll say it again, NS2 is the same game at 6v6 and 12v12. The only thing that changes is how many people are carrying out objectives, but you are fundamentally trying to complete the same thing. Yes, some numbers get amplified eg: GL with 4 people instead of 1, but there isn't much more to it than that. A lot of the differences between comp and pub are exaggerated.

meatmachine

Seb wrote: »

None of the compmod changes really impact public matches anyways, a lot of the differences are player size independent. I've said this before and I'll say it again, NS2 is the same game at 6v6 and 12v12. The only thing that changes is how many people are carrying out objectives, but you are fundamentally trying to complete the same thing. Yes, some numbers get amplified eg: GL with 4 people instead of 1, but there isn't much more to it than that. A lot of the differences between comp and pub are exaggerated.

Disagree a bit. Examples:

More players = more medpacks and ammo needed, on the same # of RTs.
1 GL firing down a hallway is much less intimidating/punishing if you get caught out than 4 GLs.
More players running around = more players to keep/lose track of
More players running around = aggressive cysting much harder for khamm
More players = you can be dealing with a 3/4 fade pack and even once they're dead have to deal with multiple onoses w/ gorge support. Also technically harder to trap life forms as there's a higher chance someone from the other team will bump into you and blow your cover.

And much more.

I agree that "A lot of the differences between comp and pub are exaggerated", but I also think it is important not to go the other way and start claiming they are very similar.
Also gotta draw the distinction between "pub play" and "high playercount servers" too.

While I would like to think the public meta would adjust for changes coming in from comp mod, my experience has shown that most popular pub servers are still stuck in release-build meta of thinking only shift/PGs first is acceptable so I have my doubts about this :P

Additionally some of the compmod changes lack polish, or seem illogical. for instance I think flamethrowers being equippable as a sidearm is good for balance, but seems a bit silly from a game logic perspective considering you cant sidearm a GL or other, lighter weapons.

With a little bit of work and tweaking I would welcome many of the comp mod changes though.

Hoeloe

@Seb and the other disagree guys
When these compmodchanges are not related with "6v6 is not the same as 12v12", then please tell me why the hell do we have a compmod?... Please explain. And now don't tell me because community don't wanna have changes. Some patches ago we just changed completely to the compmod alientechtree (and I like it). For sure you can implement compmod changes to vanilla but they need to be rebalanced for pubs. And this would result in a new compmod lawl.

Seb

I think you are missing my point slightly though, in that, most of the compmod changes won't affect pub or 12v12 balance and that compmod isn't specifically designed for 6v6 by itself, its more designed for better enjoyment and balance of the bigger picture ie: the fundamental objective of NS2 as a game. I have found that when you apply that thinking to the game, you find that player count doesn't matter as much.

Hoeloe wrote: »

@Seb and the other disagree guys
When these compmodchanges are not related with "6v6 is not the same as 12v12", then please tell me why the hell do we have a compmod?... Please explain. And now don't tell me because community don't wanna have changes. Some patches ago we just changed completely to the compmod alientechtree (and I like it). For sure you can implement compmod changes to vanilla but they need to be rebalanced for pubs. And this would result in a new compmod lawl.

Don't let the name fool you into thinking that it is purely a mod for competitive players and the balance surrounding that environment, because my understanding is that it isn't just for that. Again it's for looking at the bigger picture of NS2 and being able to detach balance from UWE and now the CDT and freely develop the game balance further with a mod rather than waiting on official builds. It is purely to advance the fundamental balance of the game ideally at 6v6 because that is the competitive format but it is not limited to it at all. In fact we have applied compmod to many big public servers in Australia because, well... there really isn't a whole lot of difference when you think on a small scale. Again its about looking at the bigger picture of balance and the flow of the game.

Hoeloe

So what exactly you wanna implement? All balance changes or just some features? I don't belive that the balance changes would function in pub games because off the diffrent playerskills and playercount relative to 6vs6 leaguegames. Thats may why there are almost no public compmod servers.
But I'm not averse to features, some I would like to see, like a HMG if it could be balanced.

Seb

Hoeloe wrote: »

So what exactly you wanna implement? All balance changes or just some features? I don't belive that the balance changes would function in pub games because off the diffrent playerskills and playercount relative to 6vs6 leaguegames. Thats may why there are almost no public compmod servers.
But I'm not averse to features, some I would like to see, like a HMG if it could be balanced.

Again, a lot of the changes in compmod are player count independent meaning that the change, while changing the balance of the game slightly, does not change the game differently at different player counts. There are only a few things that wouldn't "function" in a public game that do "function" in a 6v6 match. Let me make it even more clear that I am a firm believer that when you look at balance changes and features in a 6v6 match and a public higher player count match that the problems and flaws are the same in both of the player counts just as the general objective of the game is the same in both of the player counts but they are just amplified and more noticeable in the higher player count games. Does that make sense? Because it is my experience that this has always been the case with balance in NS2. Balance problems don't just magically appear as you add in more players, they have to originate from somewhere. We have the same problems with the GL in competitive, they are just amplified when you add in more players.

Anyways, this is still a good discussion about what changes compmod could bring to the table for vanilla NS2, I wouldn't like to see all of compmod brought in, but definitely some parts of it for sure, but that is my personal opinion.

Asraniel

I will give my general opinion on this.

I'm not really happy that comp mod and vanilla are different. If anything can be done to make them closer, i would be happy.

That said i have no idea how that should be done. But i'm sure there are many small tweaks from compmod that could get merged, without having to merge all big changes, simply to reduce the changelist between both versions.

But as i said, no idea what and how etc, really not my domain. I'm just not very happy that pub players and comp players play different games, a difference which has a risk to become even bigger over time.

Imho the ideal case would be for compmod to be the quasi beta test for balance changes, which then after refinements could get merged into vanilla. Sadly comp mod added the HMG, which is too big of a change to be considered for inclusion atm.

RaZDaZ

Some nice responses.

Initially, I thought that the addition of Metabolize and the other small tweaks implemented a few patches ago were just a testing ground for more CompMod implementations, a dip into the pool, as we've seen before how huge radical balance patches (250) and their negative effects have on the playerbase and community. I suspected it would be a progression to eventually merge CompMod with vanilla.

I'm surprised that its not at least being looked at as a potential possibility. While I do prefer playing on CompMod servers, there aren't enough of them as of right now and personally I can't afford the time to join a comp team or schedule matches due to my university commitments so I have little exposure to CompMod in comparison to comp players.

UncleCrunch

Hmmmm... first :
Comp ... pub...
Comp ... pub...
Comp ... pub...
Need i say more ?

Xarius

I'd say NS2's balance is in a pretty good place right now, but it would definitely be interesting to introduce some changes that make some techs/weapons/strategies more viable and further benefit game-play.

AurOn2

UncleCrunch wrote: »

Hmmmm... first :
Comp ... pub...
Comp ... pub...
Comp ... pub...
Need i say more ?

Yes, you need say more.
Tell you why? last time you said that, pubbers took to the compmod additions VERY WELL.

Hoeloe

@Seb now we are on the same count. I am only saying you can't just impement the whole compmod into vanilla without changes. And i also agree with Asraniel that there should be almost none, if possible not even one difference between comp and vamilla. But telling me that compmod only exist so you can update balance easier is just wrong, because then comp and vanilla would be the same every patch. And as you are the CDT you could just do that, so i wonder why you don't.

If you wanna combine vanilla and comp, what I am not aversed of, in my opinion there will be balance changes to do. Like you said: "a lot of the changes in compmod are player count independent" a lot, but i belive not all. (And i stil don't like the Veil-Nerf in comp Edit: for comp it's okay, but i wouldn't like it in vanilla)

Balance is a challenging subject. I trust the CDT, if you want to change it, let's give it a try.

Zavaro

Definitely not all of them, Hoeloe. But things like the the HMG would require a reduced magazine. It's hard to believe, too, but the flamethrower in Compmod is used even less, and commonly considered worse than the vanilla game. It does go in the pistol slot, though. That's something I very, very much enjoy.

Luchs

Zavaro wrote: »

Definitely not all of them, Hoeloe. But things like the the HMG would require a reduced magazine. It's hard to believe, too, but the flamethrower in Compmod is used even less, and commonly considered worse than the vanilla game. It does go in the pistol slot, though. That's something I very, very much enjoy.

Regarding the flamethrower: I don't find that hard to believe. Even in vanilla, the weapon doesn't work well just standalone, but is a very versatile support tool - given you have some teammates around you which can actually deal a lot of single-target damage quickly to get those skulks off you.

The way I see it, competitive players (read: players in competitive games) usually tend to focus targets to take them down quickly instead of dealing low AoE damage over time, and try to maximize their range whenever possible. Also, those scenarios where FTs are borderline op (toasting the bile balls of 3+ gorges mid-air to protect a base or an arc train, taking down a gorge fortress, disabling the functions of many alien buildings in a close area for a moment) don't seem to happen that often on comp play, either. Similar to toasting lerk spores. If used for area denial, a decent com can just med that away on 1-2 marines, and while flapping through a room with 3+ enemies to cloud them in gas may work on pubs, any lerk attempting that against 3 marines with decent aim is toast.

I don't intend to rant - I just find it really difficult to even construct/imagine a common scenario involving a FT in action where you had a clear advantage over just using your rifle.

RaZDaZ

FT has always been used even less in competitive, its a team support weapon and not a killing weapon and on lower player counts, you need more killing power to burst down lifeforms.

But the FT is just a counter to lerks and bile realistically and to stop a hive healing aliens but it requires a tonne of support in the vanilla game. I dislike the redesign in CMod, I feel that all it needed was to be able to force back lifeforms on its own but have less killing power than a shotgun but still be able to actually kill a skulk. Remove DoT damage, buff main damage and buff structure damage a bit.

UncleCrunch

AurOn2 wrote: »

UncleCrunch wrote: »

Hmmmm... first :
Comp ... pub...
Comp ... pub...
Comp ... pub...
Need i say more ?

Yes, you need say more.
Tell you why? last time you said that, pubbers took to the compmod additions VERY WELL.

Competitive Style :
-Are people who kill RT fast.
-They go were they are needed and do what they are told.
-Simple task are successful, great tasks are like flipping a coin and let fate do the job. The enemy is also playing right?

Public style :
hmmm... Close to the opposite.
-They try to kill more the units than the RTs
-They wander in the map like they want or with no clue.
-Simple tasks aren't gonna be understood...


You have the economy to take care about. As competitive players do the job properly (killing RTs and fast), there was a need to boost the economy. The Alien team relying on 2 to 3 RTs (3 is paradise) couldn't bring many lifeforms before a long time. The time needed to have lots of upgrades on the Marine side. People like games with great "show" and "action". A game with no fade or no shotguns isn't a good showcase. So the economy was a little boosted (on both sides) as many other things on competitive side. So the show could go on.

The same economy speed on public side is just not gonna work. Comp mod has been tuned to fit the efficiency of the best and to provide some "sequences" for "action packed" games and "twitch video/casts". Lerks then Shotgun then fades etc...

The other balance changes are supposed to fit this economy. So it's a clockwork. You can't exchange pieces of this like that. And i'm afraid this game will not get more players with another year of "balancing things out"... again...

You can't make it fit on the public style. It's just not the same.

I can't even imagine alien vs marine with constant 4 to 5 RTs playing the game like that. Medpack showers, Lerk and fade all other the place if not Onie. Games will end up in a stupid manner. Turtling like hell on Marine side (A3/W3/AA) and Alien being able to pour out of the hive many Onie after 5~7 minutes even if they loose. And no team able to surrender as people just don't vote the same.

Or worse when one of the team has a bad start. They just won't "get back" in the game. It's just nonsense.

Also it's not gonna help rookies. Too fast, to understand anything. It will require from them more documentation readings and practice. Everybody know it's not gonna happen. Maybe they will get erased faster from the player base. hooray... well... thanks but no thanks. This game needs new players that can get interested not arrogant comp stompers.

I see it coming 2 miles away :
-"Hey commander i bought a FT/GL"
-"WTF noob!!!"
-"votekick"
... next!


Competitive is what it is / public stuff too. 2 different paradigms / worlds.

There is a third kind of games. The public ones with great players in there (mostly compet players). They just enable the compmod at will.

Want competitive mod enabled ? Create a server.