It's called strafe. Experienced marines using strafe for avoid attacks. NS2 always was this way. Deal with it, predict marine's motions and react on it.
its simply not true that ns2 was always this way. At some point marine strafe jump got an arbitrary buff that made it it much stronger than forward jump (and of course background jump), this was also around the same time that aliens got a huge acceleration nerf meanwhile marines still have near instant acceleration. It's not a good balance imo. But most of the community devs disagree.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
Just on the momentum and acceleration; can someone more pro then I tell me if I strafe and turn and bite as a skulk, I keep my momentum? I was just thinking I am doing alot of leap past a marine, turn and bite and keep going. Does this work with just strafing past as well?
Just on the momentum and acceleration; can someone more pro then I tell me if I strafe and turn and bite as a skulk, I keep my momentum? I was just thinking I am doing alot of leap past a marine, turn and bite and keep going. Does this work with just strafing past as well?
I don't consider myself pro, but you do keep at least some momentum. I could not say how much. I like to turn and bite mid air as I go by a marine. Afaik, you keep momentum as long as you don't run into a marine or wall. I hope that at least answers part of your question.
It's called strafe. Experienced marines using strafe for avoid attacks. NS2 always was this way. Deal with it, predict marine's motions and react on it.
its simply not true that ns2 was always this way. At some point marine strafe jump got an arbitrary buff that made it it much stronger than forward jump (and of course background jump), this was also around the same time that aliens got a huge acceleration nerf meanwhile marines still have near instant acceleration. It's not a good balance imo. But most of the community devs disagree.
Because any good player will tell you that it is bad to jump too much. The occasional sideways jump never hurt anyone, but most of the time it is easier to track and bite a marine who is in the air than adadadad'ing on the ground.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
@Nordic yes, that has been my experience. I am getting better at staying on the ground and just running past marines and turning to bite now. It is so instinctive to mash the jump button like the marines. Marine legs going out of view when they strafe jump is still a bit annoying as I need to jerk my mouse around to find them.
Because any good player will tell you that it is bad to jump too much. The occasional sideways jump never hurt anyone, but most of the time it is easier to track and bite a marine who is in the air than adadadad'ing on the ground.
Dunno, maybe I play too much public games. Marine that does not jump is dead meat. You can't evade for long simply by walking. Walking seems to respect momentum and gives directional cues. Jumping as implemented just teleports you away. You can mitigate it a little as skulk by looking up, but that kills your surrounding awarness, navigational skills and speed/momentum awefuly.
I think proper balance based on the Alien-style story should be, that it is hard to get close to marine, but simple to kill him in close combat. Marine that BUTT should die easy. You should need a pal to shoot a dog off you.
@Nordic yes, that has been my experience. I am getting better at staying on the ground and just running past marines and turning to bite now. It is so instinctive to mash the jump button like the marines. Marine legs going out of view when they strafe jump is still a bit annoying as I need to jerk my mouse around to find them.
I never feel like marines jump out of my view. I have maximum FOV and a really high mouse sensitivity. That combination might explain why I never notice.
Because any good player will tell you that it is bad to jump too much. The occasional sideways jump never hurt anyone, but most of the time it is easier to track and bite a marine who is in the air than adadadad'ing on the ground.
Dunno, maybe I play too much public games. Marine that does not jump is dead meat. You can't evade for long simply by walking. Walking seems to respect momentum and gives directional cues. Jumping as implemented just teleports you away. You can mitigate it a little as skulk by looking up, but that kills your surrounding awarness, navigational skills and speed/momentum awefuly.
I think proper balance based on the Alien-style story should be, that it is hard to get close to marine, but simple to kill him in close combat. Marine that BUTT should die easy. You should need a pal to shoot a dog off you.
The skill of player of which he speaks do just adadadad on the ground. They are good and it is very hard to tell where he will go.
Maybe you are autistic that way . I get that feeling when I spectate Kerrigan or someone alike. He just rushes into a room, with no tactics obvious to me whatsoever. Shoots down 3 skulks and pistols down a gorge and safely heads to armory for new ammo, while others get slauthered around.
I have no problem hitting player which does ADADAD, it just spams my console with "invalid collision rep", and I have to bite him 5-6 times. Not that hard now that I plan for it, and am extra careful to have escape route if someone does that and perhaps chew him up on two approaches or let someone else finish him. And it is actually hard to do, if skulk jumps you unprepared. Yes annoying and you play with him while three new marines spawn, but manageble. Also I am not saying marines should not be able to evade at all, delaying skulk is certainly a skill. Jumper you bite once, he teleports away, knows exactly where you are and one spray kills you if he has decent aim (since he gets easy distance, either jumping over you or to sides and even back on first jump).
It's called strafe. Experienced marines using strafe for avoid attacks. NS2 always was this way. Deal with it, predict marine's motions and react on it.
its simply not true that ns2 was always this way. At some point marine strafe jump got an arbitrary buff that made it it much stronger than forward jump (and of course background jump), this was also around the same time that aliens got a huge acceleration nerf meanwhile marines still have near instant acceleration. It's not a good balance imo. But most of the community devs disagree.
Because any good player will tell you that it is bad to jump too much. The occasional sideways jump never hurt anyone, but most of the time it is easier to track and bite a marine who is in the air than adadadad'ing on the ground.
Meanwhile a skulk that adadadad's will have to deal with slow acceleration. Originally this was done to make skulks less likely to lag out and easier to hit. but imo it was done without proper adjustment to the marines as well. A marine that strafe jumps however, not just spams spacebar, will move faster than a skulk during the jump and can then resume strafing on the ground normally.
Maybe you are autistic that way . I get that feeling when I spectate Kerrigan or someone alike. He just rushes into a room, with no tactics obvious to me whatsoever. Shoots down 3 skulks and pistols down a gorge and safely heads to armory for new ammo, while others get slauthered around.
I have no problem hitting player which does ADADAD, it just spams my console with "invalid collision rep", and I have to bite him 5-6 times. Not that hard now that I plan for it, and am extra careful to have escape route if someone does that and perhaps chew him up on two approaches or let someone else finish him. And it is actually hard to do, if skulk jumps you unprepared. Yes annoying and you play with him while three new marines spawn, but manageble. Also I am not saying marines should not be able to evade at all, delaying skulk is certainly a skill. Jumper you bite once, he teleports away, knows exactly where you are and one spray kills you if he has decent aim (since he gets easy distance, either jumping over you or to sides and even back on first jump).
I don't think so. I can't adadad like that. Most players can't. I only see high level comp players do it, or players of that certain skill. Players of that skill usually know all the tricks so I doubt they do it just because. They do it because it works, and they can do it properly.
I find jumping works more often for me, so I am a jumper.
Maybe you are autistic that way . I get that feeling when I spectate Kerrigan or someone alike. He just rushes into a room, with no tactics obvious to me whatsoever. Shoots down 3 skulks and pistols down a gorge and safely heads to armory for new ammo, while others get slauthered around.
I have no problem hitting player which does ADADAD, it just spams my console with "invalid collision rep", and I have to bite him 5-6 times. Not that hard now that I plan for it, and am extra careful to have escape route if someone does that and perhaps chew him up on two approaches or let someone else finish him. And it is actually hard to do, if skulk jumps you unprepared. Yes annoying and you play with him while three new marines spawn, but manageble. Also I am not saying marines should not be able to evade at all, delaying skulk is certainly a skill. Jumper you bite once, he teleports away, knows exactly where you are and one spray kills you if he has decent aim (since he gets easy distance, either jumping over you or to sides and even back on first jump).
... you incorporate jumps into it... not just adadada.
also, there's 3 dimensions to play around in. i employ all to juke out skulks. even the dreaded back. i'll look left/left-jump to get to away, crouch forward, right strafe jump, crouch back etc. you have so many dimensions to play in, why limit yourself to 2?
@Nordic This is climate change denierism all over again! Ok PRO games. Watch this twitch.tv/naturalselection2/c/3788439
24:00 to 24:30 and describe for us the movement type the marines are using. Yes, both marines and aliens do sort of a ADADAD at middle to long range during bullet/parasite/spike exchanges. Sometime when marine thinks he knows exactly where skulk is and thinks he can kill him fast he does sort of a strafe aim (does sort of a half circle around skulk, hitting with 100% precission). But when it comes to it and their life is in danger, they JUMP. I think a debate if thats bad or intended for game balance is valid, but that it doesn't exist is not. Yes, balance as it is now needs more dead aliens and 3 cc vs 2 hives (otherwise you get xenocide, stomp and other not nice things).
Ok, lets try it again to be fair twitch.tv/naturalselection2/c/3605577
(Nice Alien teamwork! They have better k/d, but have to work for it and lose map in the meantime. Well, then aliens get double fade and table turns completely - but thats for another thread).
jump (and often one spray kill, if not more vs one): 1:07, 1:14, 1:33 so many bloody jumps, 2:15, 2:25, 3:00, 3:02, 3:37 bunny, 4:09, 4:12, 4:48, 5:00, 5:40 feet on fire, 5:54, 6:10, 6:13 two skulks dead, 6:53 both jumping in panic, 7:14, 7:29, 8:55 jumpity jump, 9:25, 9:40 ooh a back jump (and they say backwards is a no no), 9:57 jumpfest, 10:34, 10:54, 10:56, 11:06, 12:01, 12:31, and so on (some of it later is jetpack, and is actualy hard to spot from overhead spectator, so I stop).
Sometime ago a friend told me JJ uses too many lens flares in his movies. I have not even noticed any before that, now they annoy me. So by the same effect I hope I have ruined the game for ya all
^^^^
You're not really selling the "op jump" point here, marines died an awful lot in those engagements, especially versus life forms, because they were jumping too much.
^^^^^^
True. Most of the engagements are two+ skulks vs one marine. But that only means the pros are aware of the problem and found a way around it. Also it is some sort of semi-final so I assume they are PROs. If not please point me to the REAL pros. For now I am content to kill the myth that real scottish men do not jump and am pushing that current jump as implemented is unrealistic bordering with riddiculous.
EDIT: I pretty much picked a vid at random, so maybe it does not show the OP aspect of it that well, but I can't be accused of cherry-picking.
EDIT2: Devs seem to have it somewhere between categories "not a bug" and "won't fix", so at least have some fun ranting and whining, no?
EDIT3: Wow, those edits are really addicting, should stop now
The more i think about it, whether jumping is OP or not, the jumping aspect itself is just silly looking. 9 out of 10 Marine vs Skulk encounters end up in a jumping match.
Like i remember way, way back, there was a post on why marines walk backwards so slowly. The overall consensus was that it was slow for balance reasons. Otherwise they could kill Skulks too easy etc. At this point (for what its worth now anyway), i'd rather see Marines walk backwards a bit faster and need some less jumping, and less accuracy during the jumping.
I love NS2, i think it looks and plays amazing. And the jumping is just beneath that level of quality. I wish the devs could reach "balance" in another way. It's like an ugly means to an end.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Really?? Because I thoroughly enjoy the current dance that is early Marine vs Skulk.. it's my favorite part of NS2.
It's all about micro reactions and predictions to player styles, and allows a good expression of said style. Using a repertoire of moves like fake outs, dodges, tracking, and baiting. If something as small as removing Marine strafe jump acceleration occurred then that'd just be one less dance move on my list to execute and express.
And limiting any of these expressions just restricts the amount of possibilities to pull from and will end up making encounters more deterministic. I mean, I hear what some of you are saying in regards to working towards a more balanced solution - but personally I feel like the lvl 0 Marine vs. lvl 0 skulk feels fantastic - It has a lot of depth to it and I never feel like I died because of imbalance instead of skill.
@IronHorse Now how am I supposed to retort to such eloquent and poetic post. I do kinda like L0 vs L0 too, it is the game at its basics - raw fun. I kinda liked the overall game for the first 100 h too. I lost, had 2 kills and 15 deaths and was perfectly happy. My nitpicking and criticising comes to a large part from playing it too long. I still enjoy the game cos it's original, replayable and each player matters quite a lot. And thats no small compliment from me, NS2 may be the only online game I actually enjoy.
Now that I started the shit-sandwich: I don't mean to insult (now really, it is terribly stupid of me to actually tell this to a CDT member). I am seriously sorry bout that. Also I risk people looking at my hive account and saying I am lamer, BUT I looked at your hive account. By your W/L I would say you are slightly stacking. By your skill number, K/D and servers you play on (could be wrong, is there somewhere web showing graph of server hive skill sum?) it seems you are farming noobs. Try someone your size (I think the thirsty onoses are packed with skilled guys, the woozas are good too i think most of the day ~ 1000ish skill points average), then report back your experience.
@Nordic This is climate change denierism all over again! Ok PRO games. Watch this twitch.tv/naturalselection2/c/3788439
24:00 to 24:30 and describe for us the movement type the marines are using. Yes, both marines and aliens do sort of a ADADAD at middle to long range during bullet/parasite/spike exchanges. Sometime when marine thinks he knows exactly where skulk is and thinks he can kill him fast he does sort of a strafe aim (does sort of a half circle around skulk, hitting with 100% precission). But when it comes to it and their life is in danger, they JUMP. I think a debate if thats bad or intended for game balance is valid, but that it doesn't exist is not. Yes, balance as it is now needs more dead aliens and 3 cc vs 2 hives (otherwise you get xenocide, stomp and other not nice things).
Ok, lets try it again to be fair twitch.tv/naturalselection2/c/3605577
(Nice Alien teamwork! They have better k/d, but have to work for it and lose map in the meantime. Well, then aliens get double fade and table turns completely - but thats for another thread).
jump (and often one spray kill, if not more vs one): 1:07, 1:14, 1:33 so many bloody jumps, 2:15, 2:25, 3:00, 3:02, 3:37 bunny, 4:09, 4:12, 4:48, 5:00, 5:40 feet on fire, 5:54, 6:10, 6:13 two skulks dead, 6:53 both jumping in panic, 7:14, 7:29, 8:55 jumpity jump, 9:25, 9:40 ooh a back jump (and they say backwards is a no no), 9:57 jumpfest, 10:34, 10:54, 10:56, 11:06, 12:01, 12:31, and so on (some of it later is jetpack, and is actualy hard to spot from overhead spectator, so I stop).
Climate change denierism? Really? You make this sound so extreme. I don't deny climate change either.
Your first video, as already pointed out, was not a great video to use. When you come out of the phasegate is not when I would see that adadad behavior. I didn't watch all the times you mentioned but I never did see the adadad behavior.
After your comment, this comment I was not really sure what you seem to be arguing against since I am not arguing really for anything.
Then I saw this "For now I am content to kill the myth that real scottish men do not jump and pushing that current jump as implemented is unrealistic bordering with riddiculous."
So far I have only been trying to give input for the conversation. When better players than I say jumping gets you killed I believe them that it does at their skill level. I added that some do this adadad behavior to juke aliens that seems to be really effective.
I don't even notice a jumping issue. Marines don't really jump out of my FOV, but I also have over 1600 hours so maybe I am just used to it. I don't really see a problem with it.
Really?? Because I thoroughly enjoy the current dance that is early Marine vs Skulk.. it's my favorite part of NS2.
It's all about micro reactions and predictions to player styles, and allows a good expression of said style. Using a repertoire of moves like fake outs, dodges, tracking, and baiting. If something as small as removing Marine strafe jump acceleration occurred then that'd just be one less dance move on my list to execute and express.
And limiting any of these expressions just restricts the amount of possibilities to pull from and will end up making encounters more deterministic. I mean, I hear what some of you are saying in regards to working towards a more balanced solution - but personally I feel like the lvl 0 Marine vs. lvl 0 skulk feels fantastic - It has a lot of depth to it and I never feel like I died because of imbalance instead of skill.
I really can agree with this sentiment. One of the things I love most is the 1v1 combat with skulks. It is an emergent part of the game that can be a lot of fun. I could not of put it so eloquently or specific as ironhorse has.
Don't be so serious, man. Just trying to keep the debate entertaining, before we let it die. Not accusing you of annything, just pushing your buttons to get some response. Your input is valued.
There was some sentiment(I thought comming from you), that REAL players don't actually use jump and advise against it to you, me and other regular players. So I did my research. Picked random turnament vids and found they use jump exclusively to evade(and kill, if possible) skulk up close. EDIT: And by random I mean random, not like "random" in the game
I use FOV 15, so okay then, I will try 20. (Also will get 1000 h of experience ) Thanks for advice.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I appreciate your concern, but believe me I do not stomp - Or at least I do everything to try not to.
I even go so far as to intentionally dial it back or "turn it on" when I feel it's needed in a round, as I just enjoy a balanced game over anything else, and assume others would agree.
Also, I've spent an ungodly amount of time teaching rookies, so it would be odd of me to do a 180 like that, hehe. I wouldn't take much stock in what the hive says currently, as it's just not as accurate as is necessary. But basically, I'm just a pub hero at best, not good enough for clans but on my good days I may be at the top of the scoreboard on a pub.
I'll still be the first one to vote for a shuffle, though.
As for marine jumping, try looking at the big matches between finalists. Big names like saunamen or godar or titus or inv or archaea etc.
You may still see jumping here and there but it's 90% positioning and strafing. I suppose one could argue that the majority of the player base falls for a noob trap, then.. But really it's more of a "fu mechanic" anyways in that it seems powerful and works fine until they play against a higher skill level.
No good ol' master turns evil vs apprentices fight? Am not saying it's something bad - it is the intended purpose of rookie servers to meet SOME experienced players (if you are willing to actively teach them something, the better). It's just not as much valuable to this discussion - I assume equaly skilled players(and most of the team same skill as you or better, so you notice this problem frequently), not games where you actually need to dial it back. Ok, I guess I need to push the position, that jumps are OP, too beside my previous points.
What you mean not accurate? My hive page is annoyingly accurate (I mostly do "random", so I am against stackers slightly more often. Also on hindsight I play(ed) on pretty hard servers. Now I finaly get on avg to 0.9 to 1.0 K/D, but have big death debt from the past, and all of that can be seen there. The force even for some reason pushes me to alien more often - it shows too). Yes, maybe not all servers are tracked, the skill number has problems(is not linear and probably is bad using average to balance teams). But do you claim they actualy fake data?
Coincidentally the first vid I posted is saunamen. I posted the second one cos they twiched spectator here and there too much. I see aliens scared and commiting to attack only when they get numbers on one guy. I see evade jumping often spelling skulk(s) doom. Yes they use strafing a lot, but in different situations, for different reasons at different distances( to reduce your profile behind cover, to strafe aim, to get behind cover, to avoid parasite/spike, just precautionaly from aliens you dont see, because you need to pee. Never to evade skulk up close in open space(That potential skulk already evaded your ranged gun, your strafing, your team-mates. He IMHO already deserves your scalp.)).
EDIT: Now that I think about it, that strafe as they do it looks ridiculous too. What sane real soldier would ever do that....
SebMelbourne, AUJoin Date: 2013-04-01Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer
Guys, its actually really simple why its bad 99% of the time to jump as both skulk and marine.
As marine:
1. Jumping requires you to shift your aim a lot more than you would have to if you stay on the ground.
2. It is a lot easier for a skulk to predict your movement when you jump in any direction.
3. As soon as you hit spacebar you lose 95% of your directional influence/directional movement until you hit the ground. When you stay on the ground, you are still in direct control of your movement.
As skulk:
1. You basically jump into their crosshair. Most marines have crosshair placement looking roughly at 45degrees between looking down and straight ahead.
2. Same premise as marine above with directional movement, you have control etc adadadadada, but with skulk, because of the model sized hitbox it because a lot harder for a marine to shoot consistently when he can't predict where you are going. If the netcode/hitreg gets significantly better in NS2, skulks will have a harder time with this movement.
As marine:
1. Jumping requires you to shift your aim a lot more than you would have to if you stay on the ground.
2. It is a lot easier for a skulk to predict your movement when you jump in any direction.
3. As soon as you hit spacebar you lose 95% of your directional influence/directional movement until you hit the ground. When you stay on the ground, you are still in direct control of your movement.
Second bullet is up to discussion. As I deal with bad FPS and my aim is extremly crappy, I settled in trying to master jumping (including all kind of props in room. Skulks just glue to it when trying to follow) and survive long enough for my teammates to have an easy slow target around my legs. Works pretty well up to 10 seconds until the Skulks realize my pattern.
@Seb Nice analysis!
Now how I experienced it:
As marine:
In open space you: 1) jump away from skulk 2) aim in the general direction you jump from and shoot 3) If you for some reason miss and let skulk get speed and catch up with you again go to step 1)
Seen this used to devastating effect - some people don't even need jetpack, which is usually used for this. In average player this is still relatively effective, thou they just jump randomly and waste away jump-energy and press trigger untill they are empty painting circles with crosshairs randomly and still get some good hits. Good players in a good team avoid a situation, where they would have to jump, but when it comes to it they jump and it is usualy a surefire way to save your life in a fair fight (no group vs one)
To address your points 1) there's no problem with your aim, since you are the one doing the jump and are prepared for it and witness it with no latency from first person view.
2) It is harder because marine teleports away, gives no directional cues (animation of jump to all sides looks the same), and if you try to follow the marine in jump, you are just helping him aim at you better.
3) And gain distance fast. That you have no control means nothing if oponent has no chance to use it. Yes if you have two skulks, one can attack and second can wait on the place where the marine lands or block that direction so marine cant jump that way.
As Skulk: you are kinda sorta meant to jump around. You get speed that way and it is kinda your first and last weapon, since for marine its just point and click at distance. At close as skulk I usualy just kill or run if I fail that - no point geting in an extended dance(if I don't have to, or unless they are empty) with marines for previous reasons.
It is very much up to debate if that is OP (I think changing that from ground up would mean other changes in balace, or it would have to be very carefully and conservatively reimplemented). But can I get a consensus, that it is laughably unrealistic and not at all, how you would fight a canine creature and not how humans actually jump. In reality initial speed of jump ~= speed of your run before, or how much you spring your legs (which takes time). You would not have your legs retracted in flight, not before the apex anyway. In directional jump, you would not get that much height. Without preparation, it would look like a long step. With preparation you would stand in one place for a bit as you change kinetic energy into your crouch and than spring away.
I know, some compromise has to be made. But it is not unrealistic, it is ABSURDLY unrealistic. As some user before said: "it does not meet the overall quality of the rest of the game." And it has actual effects in the gameplay itself.
I hope the message is not lost in the walls of text I started to write. I stated and restated everything, so I am letting it go, but am very eager to hear what other players think. (And would be nice to know their perspective too = how long they play, and where are they usualy in rankings of servers they frequent).
..
It's all about micro reactions and predictions to player styles, and allows a good expression of said style. Using a repertoire of moves like fake outs, dodges, tracking, and baiting. If something as small as removing Marine strafe jump acceleration occurred then that'd just be one less dance move on my list to execute and express.
And limiting any of these expressions just restricts the amount of possibilities to pull from and will end up making encounters more deterministic. I mean, I hear what some of you are saying in regards to working towards a more balanced solution - but personally I feel like the lvl 0 Marine vs. lvl 0 skulk feels fantastic - It has a lot of depth to it and I never feel like I died because of imbalance instead of skill.
I was thinking maybe Marines could start with i.e. 80% of the current jump ability and accuracy while jumping. And higher lvl to get the full 100%. Like Celerity for aliens is needed for more speed. A Marine would have to reach lvl x before they have this level of jumping distance/ability.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not against jumping at all. I've been an avid quake trickjumper since q2. I couldn't imagine playing quake without strafing, circlestrafing etc.
As marine:
2. It is a lot easier for a skulk to predict your movement when you jump in any direction.
Not from my (Skulk) POV. When i'm up close to him, as i should be when biting, the marine goes poof up and it's hard to track him 9 times out of 10. My FOV is high enough near tunnelvision. I couldn't possibly stretch that, i shouldn't have to really.
As skulk:
2. Same premise as marine above with directional movement, you have control etc adadadadada, but with skulk, because of the model sized hitbox it because a lot harder for a marine to shoot consistently when he can't predict where you are going. If the netcode/hitreg gets significantly better in NS2, skulks will have a harder time with this movement.
I remember in one of the latest LAN comp matches where some people commmented that (on LAN) marine weapons shred through aliens and that it's because of loss/errors in regular netcode that it isn't that obvious.
Maybe if NS2 netcode ever gets to LAN hitreg levels a rebalance can happen.
If I see one more person refer to jumping as teleporting away, I'm going to rage. The only time that should/could ever happen is on a server that is underperforming. Jumping IS predictable because you lose most of your control, and therefore are restricted to a mostly linear path. Now if the skulk looses visual sight of the marine, then that could be interpreted as 'teleporting' and would make it harder to counter, but that is a mistake being made by the alien. There are directional cues on the jumping animation, the marines feet move inverse to the direction of the player, plus you can clearly see from the direction they are moving. Jumping adds 0 lateral acceleration and you accelerate slower in the air vs on the ground, so as a skulk you can get underneath the marine making it very difficult for him to aim at you. There are a lot of reasons why constantly jumping is actually NOT beneficial at higher levels, but that doesn't mean people wont try it occasionally. If you are in a situation where you are almost certainly dead, sometimes trying the unexpected can be especially beneficial.
Now this is not to say that the jumping animation shouldn't be fixed, its something I have said that negatively impacts alien learning curves. Its just that most higher level players have adapted to counter this by looking up while biting as skulk, so even when a marine jumps you will not lose track of them. Would 'fixing' jumping help alien win rates in pubs/lower skill levels? Probably. Would the impact of it be statistically quantifiable? Probably not.
Comments
Was the best guy in class standing on your head often?
He could of if he really wanted to...
I don't consider myself pro, but you do keep at least some momentum. I could not say how much. I like to turn and bite mid air as I go by a marine. Afaik, you keep momentum as long as you don't run into a marine or wall. I hope that at least answers part of your question.
Because any good player will tell you that it is bad to jump too much. The occasional sideways jump never hurt anyone, but most of the time it is easier to track and bite a marine who is in the air than adadadad'ing on the ground.
Dunno, maybe I play too much public games. Marine that does not jump is dead meat. You can't evade for long simply by walking. Walking seems to respect momentum and gives directional cues. Jumping as implemented just teleports you away. You can mitigate it a little as skulk by looking up, but that kills your surrounding awarness, navigational skills and speed/momentum awefuly.
I think proper balance based on the Alien-style story should be, that it is hard to get close to marine, but simple to kill him in close combat. Marine that BUTT should die easy. You should need a pal to shoot a dog off you.
The skill of player of which he speaks do just adadadad on the ground. They are good and it is very hard to tell where he will go.
I have no problem hitting player which does ADADAD, it just spams my console with "invalid collision rep", and I have to bite him 5-6 times. Not that hard now that I plan for it, and am extra careful to have escape route if someone does that and perhaps chew him up on two approaches or let someone else finish him. And it is actually hard to do, if skulk jumps you unprepared. Yes annoying and you play with him while three new marines spawn, but manageble. Also I am not saying marines should not be able to evade at all, delaying skulk is certainly a skill. Jumper you bite once, he teleports away, knows exactly where you are and one spray kills you if he has decent aim (since he gets easy distance, either jumping over you or to sides and even back on first jump).
Meanwhile a skulk that adadadad's will have to deal with slow acceleration. Originally this was done to make skulks less likely to lag out and easier to hit. but imo it was done without proper adjustment to the marines as well. A marine that strafe jumps however, not just spams spacebar, will move faster than a skulk during the jump and can then resume strafing on the ground normally.
I don't think so. I can't adadad like that. Most players can't. I only see high level comp players do it, or players of that certain skill. Players of that skill usually know all the tricks so I doubt they do it just because. They do it because it works, and they can do it properly.
I find jumping works more often for me, so I am a jumper.
... you incorporate jumps into it... not just adadada.
also, there's 3 dimensions to play around in. i employ all to juke out skulks. even the dreaded back. i'll look left/left-jump to get to away, crouch forward, right strafe jump, crouch back etc. you have so many dimensions to play in, why limit yourself to 2?
twitch.tv/naturalselection2/c/3788439
24:00 to 24:30 and describe for us the movement type the marines are using. Yes, both marines and aliens do sort of a ADADAD at middle to long range during bullet/parasite/spike exchanges. Sometime when marine thinks he knows exactly where skulk is and thinks he can kill him fast he does sort of a strafe aim (does sort of a half circle around skulk, hitting with 100% precission). But when it comes to it and their life is in danger, they JUMP. I think a debate if thats bad or intended for game balance is valid, but that it doesn't exist is not. Yes, balance as it is now needs more dead aliens and 3 cc vs 2 hives (otherwise you get xenocide, stomp and other not nice things).
Ok, lets try it again to be fair
twitch.tv/naturalselection2/c/3605577
(Nice Alien teamwork! They have better k/d, but have to work for it and lose map in the meantime. Well, then aliens get double fade and table turns completely - but thats for another thread).
jump (and often one spray kill, if not more vs one): 1:07, 1:14, 1:33 so many bloody jumps, 2:15, 2:25, 3:00, 3:02, 3:37 bunny, 4:09, 4:12, 4:48, 5:00, 5:40 feet on fire, 5:54, 6:10, 6:13 two skulks dead, 6:53 both jumping in panic, 7:14, 7:29, 8:55 jumpity jump, 9:25, 9:40 ooh a back jump (and they say backwards is a no no), 9:57 jumpfest, 10:34, 10:54, 10:56, 11:06, 12:01, 12:31, and so on (some of it later is jetpack, and is actualy hard to spot from overhead spectator, so I stop).
Sometime ago a friend told me JJ uses too many lens flares in his movies. I have not even noticed any before that, now they annoy me. So by the same effect I hope I have ruined the game for ya all
You're not really selling the "op jump" point here, marines died an awful lot in those engagements, especially versus life forms, because they were jumping too much.
True. Most of the engagements are two+ skulks vs one marine. But that only means the pros are aware of the problem and found a way around it. Also it is some sort of semi-final so I assume they are PROs. If not please point me to the REAL pros. For now I am content to kill the myth that real scottish men do not jump and am pushing that current jump as implemented is unrealistic bordering with riddiculous.
EDIT: I pretty much picked a vid at random, so maybe it does not show the OP aspect of it that well, but I can't be accused of cherry-picking.
EDIT2: Devs seem to have it somewhere between categories "not a bug" and "won't fix", so at least have some fun ranting and whining, no?
EDIT3: Wow, those edits are really addicting, should stop now
Like i remember way, way back, there was a post on why marines walk backwards so slowly. The overall consensus was that it was slow for balance reasons. Otherwise they could kill Skulks too easy etc. At this point (for what its worth now anyway), i'd rather see Marines walk backwards a bit faster and need some less jumping, and less accuracy during the jumping.
I love NS2, i think it looks and plays amazing. And the jumping is just beneath that level of quality. I wish the devs could reach "balance" in another way. It's like an ugly means to an end.
It's all about micro reactions and predictions to player styles, and allows a good expression of said style. Using a repertoire of moves like fake outs, dodges, tracking, and baiting. If something as small as removing Marine strafe jump acceleration occurred then that'd just be one less dance move on my list to execute and express.
And limiting any of these expressions just restricts the amount of possibilities to pull from and will end up making encounters more deterministic. I mean, I hear what some of you are saying in regards to working towards a more balanced solution - but personally I feel like the lvl 0 Marine vs. lvl 0 skulk feels fantastic - It has a lot of depth to it and I never feel like I died because of imbalance instead of skill.
Ever play a game called Chivalry? It's mostly pvp fps melee combat. If everyone hopped around that game would be dead so fast.
Now that I started the shit-sandwich: I don't mean to insult (now really, it is terribly stupid of me to actually tell this to a CDT member). I am seriously sorry bout that. Also I risk people looking at my hive account and saying I am lamer, BUT I looked at your hive account. By your W/L I would say you are slightly stacking. By your skill number, K/D and servers you play on (could be wrong, is there somewhere web showing graph of server hive skill sum?) it seems you are farming noobs. Try someone your size (I think the thirsty onoses are packed with skilled guys, the woozas are good too i think most of the day ~ 1000ish skill points average), then report back your experience.
Your first video, as already pointed out, was not a great video to use. When you come out of the phasegate is not when I would see that adadad behavior. I didn't watch all the times you mentioned but I never did see the adadad behavior.
After your comment, this comment I was not really sure what you seem to be arguing against since I am not arguing really for anything.
Then I saw this "For now I am content to kill the myth that real scottish men do not jump and pushing that current jump as implemented is unrealistic bordering with riddiculous."
So far I have only been trying to give input for the conversation. When better players than I say jumping gets you killed I believe them that it does at their skill level. I added that some do this adadad behavior to juke aliens that seems to be really effective.
I don't even notice a jumping issue. Marines don't really jump out of my FOV, but I also have over 1600 hours so maybe I am just used to it. I don't really see a problem with it.
I really can agree with this sentiment. One of the things I love most is the 1v1 combat with skulks. It is an emergent part of the game that can be a lot of fun. I could not of put it so eloquently or specific as ironhorse has.
There was some sentiment(I thought comming from you), that REAL players don't actually use jump and advise against it to you, me and other regular players. So I did my research. Picked random turnament vids and found they use jump exclusively to evade(and kill, if possible) skulk up close. EDIT: And by random I mean random, not like "random" in the game
I use FOV 15, so okay then, I will try 20. (Also will get 1000 h of experience
I even go so far as to intentionally dial it back or "turn it on" when I feel it's needed in a round, as I just enjoy a balanced game over anything else, and assume others would agree.
Also, I've spent an ungodly amount of time teaching rookies, so it would be odd of me to do a 180 like that, hehe. I wouldn't take much stock in what the hive says currently, as it's just not as accurate as is necessary. But basically, I'm just a pub hero at best, not good enough for clans but on my good days I may be at the top of the scoreboard on a pub.
I'll still be the first one to vote for a shuffle, though.
As for marine jumping, try looking at the big matches between finalists. Big names like saunamen or godar or titus or inv or archaea etc.
You may still see jumping here and there but it's 90% positioning and strafing. I suppose one could argue that the majority of the player base falls for a noob trap, then.. But really it's more of a "fu mechanic" anyways in that it seems powerful and works fine until they play against a higher skill level.
What you mean not accurate? My hive page is annoyingly accurate (I mostly do "random", so I am against stackers slightly more often. Also on hindsight I play(ed) on pretty hard servers. Now I finaly get on avg to 0.9 to 1.0 K/D, but have big death debt from the past, and all of that can be seen there. The force even for some reason pushes me to alien more often - it shows too). Yes, maybe not all servers are tracked, the skill number has problems(is not linear and probably is bad using average to balance teams). But do you claim they actualy fake data?
Coincidentally the first vid I posted is saunamen. I posted the second one cos they twiched spectator here and there too much. I see aliens scared and commiting to attack only when they get numbers on one guy. I see evade jumping often spelling skulk(s) doom. Yes they use strafing a lot, but in different situations, for different reasons at different distances( to reduce your profile behind cover, to strafe aim, to get behind cover, to avoid parasite/spike, just precautionaly from aliens you dont see, because you need to pee. Never to evade skulk up close in open space(That potential skulk already evaded your ranged gun, your strafing, your team-mates. He IMHO already deserves your scalp.)).
EDIT: Now that I think about it, that strafe as they do it looks ridiculous too. What sane real soldier would ever do that....
As marine:
1. Jumping requires you to shift your aim a lot more than you would have to if you stay on the ground.
2. It is a lot easier for a skulk to predict your movement when you jump in any direction.
3. As soon as you hit spacebar you lose 95% of your directional influence/directional movement until you hit the ground. When you stay on the ground, you are still in direct control of your movement.
As skulk:
1. You basically jump into their crosshair. Most marines have crosshair placement looking roughly at 45degrees between looking down and straight ahead.
2. Same premise as marine above with directional movement, you have control etc adadadadada, but with skulk, because of the model sized hitbox it because a lot harder for a marine to shoot consistently when he can't predict where you are going. If the netcode/hitreg gets significantly better in NS2, skulks will have a harder time with this movement.
Now how I experienced it:
As marine:
In open space you: 1) jump away from skulk 2) aim in the general direction you jump from and shoot 3) If you for some reason miss and let skulk get speed and catch up with you again go to step 1)
Seen this used to devastating effect - some people don't even need jetpack, which is usually used for this. In average player this is still relatively effective, thou they just jump randomly and waste away jump-energy and press trigger untill they are empty painting circles with crosshairs randomly and still get some good hits. Good players in a good team avoid a situation, where they would have to jump, but when it comes to it they jump and it is usualy a surefire way to save your life in a fair fight (no group vs one)
To address your points 1) there's no problem with your aim, since you are the one doing the jump and are prepared for it and witness it with no latency from first person view.
2) It is harder because marine teleports away, gives no directional cues (animation of jump to all sides looks the same), and if you try to follow the marine in jump, you are just helping him aim at you better.
3) And gain distance fast. That you have no control means nothing if oponent has no chance to use it. Yes if you have two skulks, one can attack and second can wait on the place where the marine lands or block that direction so marine cant jump that way.
As Skulk: you are kinda sorta meant to jump around. You get speed that way and it is kinda your first and last weapon, since for marine its just point and click at distance. At close as skulk I usualy just kill or run if I fail that - no point geting in an extended dance(if I don't have to, or unless they are empty) with marines for previous reasons.
It is very much up to debate if that is OP (I think changing that from ground up would mean other changes in balace, or it would have to be very carefully and conservatively reimplemented). But can I get a consensus, that it is laughably unrealistic and not at all, how you would fight a canine creature and not how humans actually jump. In reality initial speed of jump ~= speed of your run before, or how much you spring your legs (which takes time). You would not have your legs retracted in flight, not before the apex anyway. In directional jump, you would not get that much height. Without preparation, it would look like a long step. With preparation you would stand in one place for a bit as you change kinetic energy into your crouch and than spring away.
I know, some compromise has to be made. But it is not unrealistic, it is ABSURDLY unrealistic. As some user before said: "it does not meet the overall quality of the rest of the game." And it has actual effects in the gameplay itself.
I hope the message is not lost in the walls of text I started to write. I stated and restated everything, so I am letting it go, but am very eager to hear what other players think. (And would be nice to know their perspective too = how long they play, and where are they usualy in rankings of servers they frequent).
Don't get me wrong, i'm not against jumping at all. I've been an avid quake trickjumper since q2. I couldn't imagine playing quake without strafing, circlestrafing etc.
Not from my (Skulk) POV. When i'm up close to him, as i should be when biting, the marine goes poof up and it's hard to track him 9 times out of 10. My FOV is high enough near tunnelvision. I couldn't possibly stretch that, i shouldn't have to really.
I remember in one of the latest LAN comp matches where some people commmented that (on LAN) marine weapons shred through aliens and that it's because of loss/errors in regular netcode that it isn't that obvious.
Maybe if NS2 netcode ever gets to LAN hitreg levels a rebalance can happen.
Now this is not to say that the jumping animation shouldn't be fixed, its something I have said that negatively impacts alien learning curves. Its just that most higher level players have adapted to counter this by looking up while biting as skulk, so even when a marine jumps you will not lose track of them. Would 'fixing' jumping help alien win rates in pubs/lower skill levels? Probably. Would the impact of it be statistically quantifiable? Probably not.