Saving The Day With Distress Beacon
Rolling_Rock
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8677Members
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8677Members
<div class="IPBDescription">And Build Order Discussion</div> Yesterday on Tanith as Marines we had a typical, yet unusual situation. We moved to secure the reactor room and had just plopped down two resource towers there. The Kharaa rushed us constantly and after my partner and I had constructed the 2nd tower, and then I saw the commander had hopped out of the console, shot a guy, and got killed. A quick check to the score revealed that my partner and I were the only two marines left - none were respawning.
So the two of us haul **obscenity** back to the base, killing three on the way back. My partner dies, and I just barely kill the lask skulk. I hop into the command console, first thinking to throw down a new spawn portal and rebuild it.
But...
Our commander had tried a new strategy. Instead of putting an armory up first in the base, he put up an observatory. His thinking was, if he got that up right away, he could see where the aliens were moving on the mini-map, so he could definitely determine which hive was their original hive, AND which hive they were moving to secure first. The other half of the logic was so he'd quickly be able to plop down phase gates at hive locations and defend them first with men instead of a turret factory and 3-4 turrets.
This had an interesting side effect, because I had two options to me now, the infantry portal, and distress beacon.
In two clicks I had the beacon going, and then I hopped out of the console. Whole marine team respawned (much to the aliens' surprise I'm sure, who arrived mere seconds later). Commander hopped back in his chair and all was well after that.
I immediately returned to reactor room to find it just as I had left it - the aliens had assumed after they destroyed our infantry portals that all they had to do was go clean up that one lone marine left, me.
We went on to win that match. I can only guess that maybe their gorges were real slow in getting that second hive up since they thought they had already won.
My first real experience where Distress Beacon truly saved the mission. Last man left, no infantry portals....it doesn't get any more distressful <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Now for the discussion....
This was only possible because the commander plopped down that observatory very quickly. It ended up being the sole thing that saved the mission and ultimately led to victory.
Pros:
* Phase gates become available very soon, allowing any marines who are securing a hive to place the phase gate *first* and immediately get reinforcements there. If done to two hives, both could be secured (or at least we could delay the aliens getting the 2nd, buying more time for upgrades and heavy armor/weapons).
* Commander can see movement all over the map very early, so he can see if the aliens are rushing, if they are setting up in certain areas, and which hives they are most active in (showing where their original hive is, and which hive is their second).
* Motion Tracking can be researched very soon, if resources permit and the commander chooses.
* Distress Becaon is an option to fight consistent waves of alien attacks, or in situations where aliens manage to essentially slaughter most of the marine team in a short time. DB can help recover faster and do some salvaging.
Cons:
* It comes at the price an armory, which would need to be delayed. No armory means going out with limited ammo for a little while. An alternate "price" would be the turret factory.
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What do you think of this alternate build order for the early game? It would be somewhat like:
15 rc - Infantry Portal
25 rc - Observatory
25 rc - Turret Factory
19 rc - Turret
19 rc - Turret
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103 (shouldn't be a problem getting this much by the time the stuff builds, plus a little change)
The Observ and turret factory would be essentially placed at the same time, but the sooner the Observ is placed, the sooner the comm can benefit from the motion tracking. About the time it goes up, the comm should see a lot of red dots moving toward the base, at which time he can warn the marines of the attack (and direction, if possible). Or if not, he might see where those red dots ARE moving. After the rush is beaten back, the comm can see what hive all those red dots are respawning in.
After this build point, the Comm can option to put the resources toward a 2nd resource tower, an armory, or another infantry portal.
You'll notice this build order only has one infantry portal at first. I'm sure some of you are screaming at how stupid this is. Here's the logic: A second infantry portal costs 15 rcs, and distress beacon also costs 15 rc's. If the first alien rush is so bad that 2 infantry portals are needed to respawn all the marines, you'd be better off just foregoing the second turret and using distress beacon. Why? Stuff would be built faster, more marines would be there to defend, and the rest can leave the base and get on with securing hive resources, and linking them with phase gates.
As for the armory issue - I've had many maps where the commander has us on a very very tight ammo supply due to wanting to expand quickly and capture a lot of resources. It just means we have to be more careful with how we spend it. But it isn't always a bad thing not to have ammo.
1) Most marines spawn and foolishly max out their ammo capacity, taking 20 seconds or so to do it. If there's no armory, that's 20 seconds sooner they are moving back to hives and key resource sites. They usually die with 200+ rounds anyway. So it isn't necessarily a bad thing to have no armory, it forces marines to go out faster.
2) I've had to do ammo salvaging at times, which involves throwing down my pistol and picking up some dead guy's pistol, and LMG, hoping that maybe I'd find it with 8 or 10 rounds, or maye, if I'm real lucky 30 or so LMG rounds. Corpse-salvaging isn't a bad idea, and it can keep the men who live long enough to run out of ammo full of the stuff.
3) Once hive resources are secure and there is a phase gate from the hive to base, men in those far off places can get ammo at the armory at base via the phase gate. Go in shifts, one at a time, until everyone has ammo at the site. (note: turret factory and turrets are not needed here, I propose that resource node + phase gate should be first two structures placed at a hive, with the factory coming after 2-3 more men hop through the phase gate to build)
This build and strategy is all about rapid expansion, rapid movement (phase gates), and the comm using the observatory motion tracking to see where the aliens are, where they are going, and, if necessary, use distress beacon in the early game.
Thoughts?
So the two of us haul **obscenity** back to the base, killing three on the way back. My partner dies, and I just barely kill the lask skulk. I hop into the command console, first thinking to throw down a new spawn portal and rebuild it.
But...
Our commander had tried a new strategy. Instead of putting an armory up first in the base, he put up an observatory. His thinking was, if he got that up right away, he could see where the aliens were moving on the mini-map, so he could definitely determine which hive was their original hive, AND which hive they were moving to secure first. The other half of the logic was so he'd quickly be able to plop down phase gates at hive locations and defend them first with men instead of a turret factory and 3-4 turrets.
This had an interesting side effect, because I had two options to me now, the infantry portal, and distress beacon.
In two clicks I had the beacon going, and then I hopped out of the console. Whole marine team respawned (much to the aliens' surprise I'm sure, who arrived mere seconds later). Commander hopped back in his chair and all was well after that.
I immediately returned to reactor room to find it just as I had left it - the aliens had assumed after they destroyed our infantry portals that all they had to do was go clean up that one lone marine left, me.
We went on to win that match. I can only guess that maybe their gorges were real slow in getting that second hive up since they thought they had already won.
My first real experience where Distress Beacon truly saved the mission. Last man left, no infantry portals....it doesn't get any more distressful <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
----
Now for the discussion....
This was only possible because the commander plopped down that observatory very quickly. It ended up being the sole thing that saved the mission and ultimately led to victory.
Pros:
* Phase gates become available very soon, allowing any marines who are securing a hive to place the phase gate *first* and immediately get reinforcements there. If done to two hives, both could be secured (or at least we could delay the aliens getting the 2nd, buying more time for upgrades and heavy armor/weapons).
* Commander can see movement all over the map very early, so he can see if the aliens are rushing, if they are setting up in certain areas, and which hives they are most active in (showing where their original hive is, and which hive is their second).
* Motion Tracking can be researched very soon, if resources permit and the commander chooses.
* Distress Becaon is an option to fight consistent waves of alien attacks, or in situations where aliens manage to essentially slaughter most of the marine team in a short time. DB can help recover faster and do some salvaging.
Cons:
* It comes at the price an armory, which would need to be delayed. No armory means going out with limited ammo for a little while. An alternate "price" would be the turret factory.
----
What do you think of this alternate build order for the early game? It would be somewhat like:
15 rc - Infantry Portal
25 rc - Observatory
25 rc - Turret Factory
19 rc - Turret
19 rc - Turret
------
103 (shouldn't be a problem getting this much by the time the stuff builds, plus a little change)
The Observ and turret factory would be essentially placed at the same time, but the sooner the Observ is placed, the sooner the comm can benefit from the motion tracking. About the time it goes up, the comm should see a lot of red dots moving toward the base, at which time he can warn the marines of the attack (and direction, if possible). Or if not, he might see where those red dots ARE moving. After the rush is beaten back, the comm can see what hive all those red dots are respawning in.
After this build point, the Comm can option to put the resources toward a 2nd resource tower, an armory, or another infantry portal.
You'll notice this build order only has one infantry portal at first. I'm sure some of you are screaming at how stupid this is. Here's the logic: A second infantry portal costs 15 rcs, and distress beacon also costs 15 rc's. If the first alien rush is so bad that 2 infantry portals are needed to respawn all the marines, you'd be better off just foregoing the second turret and using distress beacon. Why? Stuff would be built faster, more marines would be there to defend, and the rest can leave the base and get on with securing hive resources, and linking them with phase gates.
As for the armory issue - I've had many maps where the commander has us on a very very tight ammo supply due to wanting to expand quickly and capture a lot of resources. It just means we have to be more careful with how we spend it. But it isn't always a bad thing not to have ammo.
1) Most marines spawn and foolishly max out their ammo capacity, taking 20 seconds or so to do it. If there's no armory, that's 20 seconds sooner they are moving back to hives and key resource sites. They usually die with 200+ rounds anyway. So it isn't necessarily a bad thing to have no armory, it forces marines to go out faster.
2) I've had to do ammo salvaging at times, which involves throwing down my pistol and picking up some dead guy's pistol, and LMG, hoping that maybe I'd find it with 8 or 10 rounds, or maye, if I'm real lucky 30 or so LMG rounds. Corpse-salvaging isn't a bad idea, and it can keep the men who live long enough to run out of ammo full of the stuff.
3) Once hive resources are secure and there is a phase gate from the hive to base, men in those far off places can get ammo at the armory at base via the phase gate. Go in shifts, one at a time, until everyone has ammo at the site. (note: turret factory and turrets are not needed here, I propose that resource node + phase gate should be first two structures placed at a hive, with the factory coming after 2-3 more men hop through the phase gate to build)
This build and strategy is all about rapid expansion, rapid movement (phase gates), and the comm using the observatory motion tracking to see where the aliens are, where they are going, and, if necessary, use distress beacon in the early game.
Thoughts?
Comments
Wounded/out of ammo marine at that point is better off just killing themselves off and respawning anyway- that's not an option later in the game, but early on it's do-able
The first is default - it gives the COMMANDER motion tracking on his mini-map. He sees dots on the map when they move.
The second is researchable motion tracking - it gives EVERY MARINE motion tracking on his HUD.
Its a good strategy but a risky one IMO... However the proposed reply suggested forfeiting the Turrent Factory and turrents in exchange for the observatory and the motion tracking which I think is just ludicrous... but forfeiting the armory is a whole different approach and not a bad one either..
As a commander I will usually throw down a Phase gate as the first or second thing to build in most places especially hives..
The reason is rather simple, Waypoints rock, marines that know how to get to their waypoints without being babysit(ie waypoint to this corner, waypoint to next hallway, waypoint to door etc..) also rock.. Chances of getting all your marines in a game like that are nil to none... so phase gates are an easy way to say get here, then you get the newbie reply" gimme a waypoint" or " how do i get there" to which you can reply " Use the phase gate !" and everyone can and does easily get to and reinforce that point where the phase gate was dropped and built..
Motion Sensing Tracking is nice against level one aliens but almost useless against level 2 , fades etc.. or against aliens that DON'T MOVE. IMHO motion sense tracking is a waste of resources early on in a game, later maybe even 5 to 10 mins later it can be something that you can't live without. But 35 rp plus 45 for motion is just too much to handle the first 5 mins of the game i think.. hell I build a TF and 3 turrents for 82 rp.. Its 80 for an observatory + motion.. early on in the game I think the TF is more important...
Texas Ranger
It's moreso for the phase gate and the commander seeing motion on the map (allowing him to have more intel with which to do better commanding).
But I would like to say that from a grunt's position, motion tracking is a godsend. It's ESP. If you know the map, and if you know approximate distances of the circles with respect to their size on the HUD, then you know where aliens are, where they are and where they are going.
You can see which hive they are NOT defending.
You can see if they're working on a resource site of yours.
You can see where they are massing.
You can see specifically where an alien is coming.
You can see where a skulk just moved to ambush you by watching where the circle moved and where it disappeared.
It saves many marine lives and can make a large difference.
As for being useful against level 2 aliens - yes it is. The key to destroying fades is to not play their hit-and-run game. A common tactic I use is to work up against a wall where one is usually popping around a corner firing acid rockets. If you chase him, they like to run away, but with motion tracking I can see when he comes back and approaches near. Then I pop around the corner (surprise surprise!) and gun him down. The motion tracking tells me the ideal time to pop around that corner.
Combine motion tracking w/ sound and you can tell if that circle on the map is a lerk, fade, skulk, or gorge. You can tell where he's going, where he stopped, and if anyone is with him.
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But anyway, it's nice to have that, but when resources are tight, it isn't feasible until a couple resource nodes are secured. Phase gates are very useful to that and the intel the commader gets simply from having the observatory.
This is almost the build I used when I first started playing. Getting an observatory up early is a *great* idea - earlier motion tracking for the commander and the marines.
I eventually phased out of that and started moving to a more conventional build order, but that was before I knew about the wonders of distress beacon. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
My build order now really depends on the map - I use a different one that maximizes the marine's advantages (if any) on certain maps.
I just may have to give the Observatory build order another go after reading this!
Marine surviving an ambush and not losing that shotgun: 20 RP
Marines noticing approaching Skulk and killing it instead of dying and losing a resource tower: 22 RP
Marines seeing that a bunch of aliens are elsewhere and taking the opportunity to blow up a hive: Priceless
Researching guns, building turrets, taking resources, none of those are worth one single RP if your troops keep getting ambushed and killed. The Kharaa hinge almost entirely on surprise, to a greater or lesser extent, and taking that surprise away blunts much of their ability to cause serious harm. It even gives the humans a chance to do some ambushing for a change.
I also disagree that higher-evolution aliens make motion tracking obsolete. Fades assaulting a base often need to retreat to regenerate once every minute or so, and defenders would know when the time's right to chase down the injured bug and hose him down like a dog in the middle of the hallway while his back's turned. Onos sometimes use the 'do as much damage as possible before going back to a defense chamber' tactic as well, and in all the confusion of one of those monsters running all over the base, sometimes they can slip away unnoticed. This time, though, it's easy to follow them back to their little supply area and blow it up.
That doesn't even touch how useful it is to be able to follow those fast little bugs, catching Lerks as they move up on a ledge where otherwise they wouldn't have been spotted, that sort of thing.
All that, for about the cost of two shotguns? If anything, the price is a steal for the benefit that the team receives.
Well, I never got the welder, but I did get motion tracking, a jetpack, and a shotgun. Whenever that Lerk tried to shoot some spikes into our base, I unloaded right into him. One hit kills are satisfying. Moreso when the same player keep trying the same strategy over and over. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sure it's one of those all-or-nothing strategies, but at least its got a little style. I imagine you could use toned down varients to secure locations and attack them less aggressively.
It was more along the lines of "secure 2 hives ASAP" not "swarm the original alien hive."
I think distress beacon really should be used in emergencies, or if 5 or more marines die at once. Your idea to use DB and send them through phase gate to their first hive and swarm it is interesting.
But I was thinking more along the lines of:
* marines run to a hive
* marines throw up phase gate to hive
* more marines come and secure it with resource node and turrets
* marines run to second hive (if some weren't holding position there already)
* repeat
As it was mentioned earlier, most people dont' know maps very well, and they always say "give us a waypoint." It's much easier to say "go through the phase gate" They get there faster, and they don't get lost or killed along the way.
If you can secure 2 hives you never have to worry about the fade or umbra problem.
The "typical" hive security is usually: marines run to hive, marines set up turrets, marines wait around for the phase gate tech to be available. It's high risk because they are very vulnerable setting up those turrets. If the phase gate went up first, more marines could pile in there if it came under attack while the rest of the defenses were being placed.
PROS:
efficient containment of kharra by taking their hives and getting more resource ndoes up quickly....
CONS:
WILL THE n00bs listen?? or will they sit in base and complain... meaning an even quicker death??
haha
but wait.. i was wondering... as a CO in training...
do u guys normally go for the closest resrouce nodes and build out
or do u go for the somewhat outer ones ;.. secure those.. and build in... cuz wouldn't it be better to get the ones further out?? and wait slowly to build the more easily defendable ones??
o and yeah... n00bs will most likely boot you.. *sigh*
For example, on Nancy marines usually get their butts kicked, but in the hands of an aggressive commander with marines who listen, it can be a cakewalk. On that map the comm swept through from spawn to subspace, getting every resource node between the two (one outside spawn, one in mess hall, one at mother interface). At each he would place the turret factory so it only needed 2-3 turrets to protect it (by placing the factory very tightly in a corner or against a wall). This cut back on the time needed to secure it and move on. With a hive and a total of 5 resource nodes, the aliens had their hive up at about that time, but the comm upgraded quickly, had everyone phase back to base and suited them up with HA/HMG, and a grenade launcher. Pressed on a second hive and sieged it. And from there, that's all she wrote....
Another tactic with maps that have a resource node AT the hive, is to take a hive first and not secure resource nodes along the way. Afterall, if you're going to secure a resource node and place turrets up, why not have it be a hive where you get a 2 for one deal? And if you're going to get two resource sites, why not have them be the two unoccupied hives? That's the whole "sack two hives quickly or simultaneously" line of strategies.
So there's your basic two schools of thought:
1) sweep toward a hive, grabbing all resource nodes you can while setting up minimal defense at each, and be prepared to siege the second hive quickly. Use the resource holdings for quite tech jumps.
Good for maps like:
nothing
nancy
hera
eclipse
tanith
caged
2) go directly toward the hives first and foremost, secure one then battle to secure the other before it goes up, a bit of a gamble, and very tight on resources. Requires marines that can actually aim.
Good for maps like:
eclipse
tanith
nancy
The former is a more "safe" bet, but its slower in securing hives. If the aliens manage to destroy any resource sites along the way you will be hurting a lot. The advantage here is that you have a stable resource platform from which to launch your operations. The risk is that the aliens are essentially guaranteed to get level 2 - but hopefully you have enough resources to crank out the heavy armor and heavy weapons and push them back with those and siege. Hit and run tactics of a fade will take down most defenses in short order so you need to rely more on the offensive powers of the heavy marine force. Most commanders take this approach and the marine team can't keep up with the sustained fade attack. THe way to make it work is to be very very aggressive.
The latter is riskier because it relies more on the marines being on the offensive and not relying on turrets and heavy armor to do their work for them. If you have marines that can shoot straight and stay together, this is a very devastating approach to the aliens and they will have a very hard time with it. The major advantage here is that if you capture that second hive, barring something extremely stupid, you will win. If you don't fades will appear and the game will be very short after that.
Both require you to act QUICKLY and not have marines dicking around. Both require marines to actually go where you tell them to. That's why if you have a retarded team you lose no matter how good the commander is.