When can we expect some survival aspects added into the game?

MycroftCanadaNS

Hi.

I guess the title covers my question for the most part. The areas I am wondering about is food, thirst, etc.

Oh one more thing, is the ocean salt or fresh water?

Cheers.

Nairit

As the game is now, not sure how much of consideration survival would be. With Fabricator capabilities it seems likely you'll be able to extract drinkable water not only from sea water but from any plant, animal or chemical compound that contains hydrogen and oxygen. Likewise you should be able to fabricate some sort of horribly tasting food paste

And if getting food and water isn't a challenge then it's a chore, so I'd just as well drop or at least automate it and focus on survival based on things like decompression sickness, hypothermia, alien parasites, alien toxins, alien viruses, etc

P.S. I would rather have needs handled as in State of Decay - you have daily consumption and you have food store. You do not need to actually eat (although it might give immediate benefits such as stamina recovery) just make sure you have enough food stored. If you build say a hydroponics bay you don't have to worry about food ever again (barring special circumstances - food storage destroyed, hydroponics offline, etc)

MycroftCanadaNS

I doubt it will be as easy as picking a piece of alien kelp, and eating it. I suspect that you would use the kelp as fertilizer which would allow you to plant whatever seed which would produce edible fruit, root, or berry.

Not too sure as how they will approach this, but it is a necessity as heading to the surface for oxygen so to leave that out entirely (eating, and drinking).

Too say that if it becomes a chore drop it. I find having to resurface to recharge the air tanks to be a pain but that is something I would not like to see abandoned simply because it's a chore. Just because it can be a pain it should not be dropped for convenience sake (that is just laziness). I certainly do not want this game to be dumb-ed down so much that it's no longer a struggle to survive on a new, and unexplored world. If the developers wish to do this then I'll toss the game into the pile with the rest of the dumb-ed down games I own (most likely never play the game again).

On the contrary, the bigger the chore it becomes then we look to automate it which I think could be put into the game itself. As an example, if it becomes a chore to resurface every ten minutes, then find a way to built a better breathing apparatus. Same is for food, and drinking water. If you hate to go out, and pick what needs to be harvested, and prepare then have your bots head out, and do the harvesting for you while you are off doing other things which are important. If I keep running out of clean water, then I find a way to build a desalination station, and pump, and build storage tanks so I do not have to do it by hand.

I'm in for the survival, and exploration of the planet, and I don't want it handed to me on s silver platter.

This is just my personal opinion, and means very little.

Nairit

MycroftCanadaNS wrote: »

I find having to resurface to recharge the air tanks to be a pain but that is something I would not like to see abandoned simply because it's a chore.

It's not a chore it's a challenge. It's a consideration for deeper dives, and a time management issue, and an inventory management issue - get extra tank or save extra space...

If eating and drinking can be similarly made into valid game-play challenges (Long Dark) - by all means... then all you have to worry about is lore consistency (fabricator that can extract carbon out of purple mushrooms or convert random sand into treated glass fibre of the flippers... can't extract salt out of water, or useful proteins and carbohydrates our of the mushrooms)

P.S. For the record, oxygen tanks don't recharge just by been exposed to breathable atmosphere... i wonder if you would still be ok with it if you had to collect oxygen, pressurize it into liquid form, fill tanks at the lifepod from a charging station... and do this for every single dive. None of these actions would be any challenge, but you'll have to do them repeatedly and regularly.

MycroftCanadaNS

Nairit wrote: »

MycroftCanadaNS wrote: »

I find having to resurface to recharge the air tanks to be a pain but that is something I would not like to see abandoned simply because it's a chore.

P.S. For the record, oxygen tanks don't recharge just by been exposed to breathable atmosphere... i wonder if you would still be ok with it if you had to collect oxygen, pressurize it into liquid form, fill tanks at the lifepod from a charging station... and do this for every single dive. None of these actions would be any challenge, but you'll have to do them repeatedly and regularly.

Yes I know that.

Now you wouldn't own just one tank to recharge which would make it a very tedious thing to take care of which would make perfect sense to have more than one on standby. The whole point to this is for the player to take advantage of what the developers have given us, and turn a uncomfortable situation into a more productive journey. If you can only wear two tanks at one time then it's time for you to craft a seamoth, and if that becomes not good enough, then build a cyclops which is the whole point to the game.

Now as with The Long Dark game yes the eating, and drinking mechanic was a hardship which is why they had to tweak the settings to get it correct, but that particular part even though felt like a chore taught me personally that good inventory management is a necessity, and I am very thankful too them for not tossing or adjusting it for those who found it to much of a chore which you are suggesting that the devs do for Subnautica.

Just because it's hard, does not take away from the enjoyment of the game. If you personally think it's too difficult or tedious then play on normal or site seeing mode (that is if they decide to add this game mode).

Nairit

I think we might have different definition of the word "challenge". My point is UNLESS it's hard, unless it's a challenge - it shouldn't be in the game.

For instance if those O2 tanks would last for 3 hours game time eliminating all the challenges associated with oxygen management that i mentioned earlier - yeah i would say might as well drop them and just declare character a generically modified human with gills.

Can eating and drinking be made hard? Sure (once again Long Dark or Don't Starve)

But than it'll probably be a game about staying alive rather exploring alien planet.

MycroftCanadaNS

Nairit wrote: »

I think we might have different definition of the word "challenge". My point is UNLESS it's hard, unless it's a challenge - it shouldn't be in the game.

For instance if those O2 tanks would last for 3 hours game time eliminated all the challenges associated with that i mentioned earlier - yeah i would say might as well drop them and just declare character a generically modified human with gills.

Can eating and drinking be made hard? Sure (once again Long Dark or Don't Starve)

But than it'll probably be a game about staying alive rather exploring alien planet.

I agree, my meaning of the word challenge has changed since I play UrW, and Dwarve Fortress on a regular basis.

Now your getting into an area I am really looking forward too, and that is DNA tampering. I wouldn't mind eventually modifying my characters DNA to suit the enviroment, and if that allows me over time after several hours of game play grow gills, then so be it, I like that idea.

The Long Dark, and Subnautica are two different types of games. The Long Dark is a semi-pure survivalist game which is the reason for it, and Subnautica is not a such a game which wouldn't rely on the player to stop every ten minutes to eat, and drink. I am very sure the developers are not that stupid to add in that particular game mechanic, instead I am sure they would balance it out when they are ready to code it into their game.

Oh well, we'll see.

Castle

This is such a complex topic that its hard to really give a proper answer. Survival game play goes a lot deeper than imposing some kind of basic needs on the player but rather adding hooks to the playing experience that coerce interesting situations. I dont feel its so much about if the mechanic itself is challenging but rather if it causes me to be in interesting situations. I think this is the meat of what makes a survival game tick over all other things. I have experimented endlessly with this style of game play (Mods for Fallout and Skyrim) and have found it intriguing on so many levels.

While on one hand as developers our goal is to provide the player with everything they need but when it comes to survival all of our typical design philosophies are flipped upside down. Its very hard to say where Subnautica will stand compared to other survival games.

MycroftCanadaNS

zetachron

When I look back at Skyrim and its giant landscape with frosty regions of all kind I never understood why Bethesda left the aspect of freezing to death untouched. The Frostfall mod is a script pain to bring something into the game that wasn't prepared for that. Lost opportunity I'd say.

So survival parts are best game/environmental based. Skyrim cried for thermal survival, but other needs might be less interesting. Subnautica would rather cry for subsea dangers like missing oxygen, pressure and darkness (if enough depth is there), deadly currents and sea predators of all kind. Thirst wouldn't be really useful in Subnautica but useful on a planet like Dune.

And finally it would be best if each area would have its own survival threats. A valley of extreme depth would focus on light, pressure and hidden predators. A cave system might focus on light and deadly trapping currents or hull breaches for a sub hitting rocks. Diving without a sub might focus more on oxygen. If you live in an underwater complex you might have everything but must fear earthquakes. A settlement on top of an isle must face surface storms like tsunamis.

MycroftCanadaNS

zetachron wrote: »

When I look back at Skyrim and its giant landscape with frosty regions of all kind I never understood why Bethesda left the aspect of freezing to death untouched. The Frostfall mod is a script pain to bring something into the game that wasn't prepared for that. Lost opportunity I'd say.

So survival parts are best game/environmental based. Skyrim cried for thermal survival, but other needs might be less interesting. Subnautica would rather cry for subsea dangers like missing oxygen, pressure and darkness (if enough depth is there), deadly currents and sea predators of all kind. Thirst wouldn't be really useful in Subnautica but useful on a planet like Dune.

And finally it would be best if each area would have its own survival threats. A valley of extreme depth would focus on light, pressure and hidden predators. A cave system might focus on light and deadly trapping currents or hull breaches for a sub hitting rocks. Diving without a sub might focus more on oxygen. If you live in an underwater complex you might have everything but must fear earthquakes. A settlement on top of an isle must face surface storms like tsunamis.

I agree.

My one and only concern is not to ignore the basic fundamentals of any survival situation which is food, water, shelter, warmth (in this case oxygen is number one priority). To do that then would cheapen the experience of being part of a whole.

Now I read via Trello that they are taking a look at adding thermal layers with temperature changes associated with that which leads me to believe that they could be adding in something along the lines of Frostfall, and/or have the thermal layers disrupt the use of getting proper readings from sonar based equipment which would force you to dive deeper. I'm sure we won't know until they decide on what they will do with it.

Very cool idea about earthquakes.

Gunnie

Thermoclines are are interesting subject, they dont exactly 'disrupt' sonar but reflect most of the sound waves back up making detection of objects below the layer very difficult. There is also a phenomenon where sonar can be bounced between a seasonal thermal layer and the deeper ocean thermal layer extending the range of the sonar quite considerably.

There is also an effect called SOFAR, this is where the pressure, temperature and salinity combine to create 'slowing down' of the speed of sound. The slower sound travels in water the greater its range becomes. As a general rule this sound channel is deeper at the equater and gets shallower the further north or south you go.

Some species of whale deliberatly dive down to this sound channel to communicate over very large distances 'Whalephone'

I know that detailed sound models already exist and have been very accuratly simulated, whether or not this could be implemented into subnautica? its possible, as a VERY basic model that ignores most of the variables, it may be fun to suggest it to the Dev's and watch them faint but that would probably delay the game

MycroftCanadaNS

Gunnie wrote: »

Thermoclines are are interesting subject, they dont exactly 'disrupt' sonar but reflect most of the sound waves back up making detection of objects below the layer very difficult. There is also a phenomenon where sonar can be bounced between a seasonal thermal layer and the deeper ocean thermal layer extending the range of the sonar quite considerably.

There is also an effect called SOFAR, this is where the pressure, temperature and salinity combine to create 'slowing down' of the speed of sound. The slower sound travels in water the greater its range becomes. As a general rule this sound channel is deeper at the equater and gets shallower the further north or south you go.

Some species of whale deliberatly dive down to this sound channel to communicate over very large distances 'Whalephone'

I know that detailed sound models already exist and have been very accuratly simulated, whether or not this could be implemented into subnautica? its possible, as a VERY basic model that ignores most of the variables, it may be fun to suggest it to the Dev's and watch them faint but that would probably delay the game

Interesting stuff you posted... Thanks!

zetachron

Will the world be big and deep enough to handle thermoclines and whales diving into or rising from the deep? Wouldn't that need an engine that allows a worldspace of much bigger size? Could a map with different detail level be done?

One handling smaller areas on manscale like we see now, but also bigger whale and open ocean territories that allow whale and submarine size action, which I can't see with the small terrain now? Terrains that are more rough but far more deep going into thousands of meters deep?

What is the engine limit? Is bigger whale action, a battle of sea giants or deep ocean off limits? Or is it more a limit of artwork manpower and the engine itself can handle giant deep sea terrains?