Map Balance and Spawns
RaZDaZ
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167331Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167331Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Hey guys. With the recent success and positive reception of 267 and being impressed with the amount of refinement brought to the game by the CDT, I wanted to propose some changes regarding maps especially on the topic of spawn points. I also want to hear the community's opinions on certain maps, are they fun to play, are they balanced, etc.
I'm fully expecting some conflicting opinions, hell I might be the only person with concerns over this and I'm not saying I have the correct solutions but they are problems which I feel need to be at least looked at rather than completely ignored. We had in the past, some changes regarding some maps about spawn points and I feel this topic needs to be brought up again. Some maps are fine but not all. I will primarily be focusing on spawn positions rather than overall map design although I will bring it up if its a simple change or something important. I will also be referring to the wild contrast on ARC positions, some maps have broken and straight up OP locations while some maps aren't even considered viable to go for ARCs whether its rushing ARCs or lategame. I will not address ARC positions which I believe to be mostly balanced. Typically this includes a position that has a close proximity to an alien attack path that forces aliens to engage marines to push the ARCs back but does not result in a huge commitment like Warehouse. An example of this would be Elevator Transfer ARC position, easy to setup but also easy to destroy. I will also primarily be referring to ARC positions that threaten spawn locations at the start of the game.
I am also aware of the counter to ARCs such as res biting and base rushing but in most cases regarding the positions I highlight, marines have a PG close to the ARC position but the commander is also very experienced and aware of the possibility of a rush, defeating an ARC push because the marine commander/team doesn't know how to do them I would not consider an appropriate solution. I do consider ARCs a very difficult concept to balance on a map design basis but like I said, when utilized properly, they can be game breaking but also a very strategic option that gives aliens more to think about.
IMPORTANT: Keep in mind I'm strictly looking at PUBLIC PLAY mainly around 16-20 players and up to 24, usually equal teams and the official maps ONLY. This is not addressing balance issues, only problems that I have with certain maps. I will also not be addressing Kodiak or Eclipse as I have not played enough games in order to get a solid critical perspective.
Let's begin:
TRAM PROBLEMS
- Shipping spawn. Not a huge concern but I feel that this position makes it more difficult for marines to sustain 3 bases. Marines usually need to commit 1/3 on each side and 1/3 in hub or pushing platform early game which leads to the problem that aliens only need to commit nearly their entire team to either repair or ET, adjacent TP such as warehouse and server are usually free to take for aliens thus it makes it very easy to drop a tunnel with some excessive defense which makes it difficult for marines to take until much later on
- Warehouse spawn. This has two problems. IF aliens spawn here, marines can commit to an ARC push very early and aliens usually don't have bile or the tech to push it back. This requires marines to have hub which is usually the case for an even team. IF marines spawn here, skulks can evolve into gorge on the railings/platforms near the ceiling and bile bomb the entire base. Often the case, marines don't realise this until the CC is almost dead, IPs are down and anything close by. This is usually before JPs can be upgraded and marines find it very difficult to kill the gorge. End result is always, marines lose a huge amount of res, a lot of map presence and sometimes even ends the game right there
- ARC push on Warehouse is an extreme contrast to other ARC positions where ARCs are much easier to hit, simply put, Server Room is generally a much more preferable spawn
Some TRAM Solutions:
- Don't allow skulks to evolve at the top of warehouse to prevent gorge bile
- Force north spawn into server room, this gives marines better chance to secure repair from shipping and allows for constant contest over ET while it eliminates very early ARC rushes on warehouse
MINESHAFT PROBLEMS
- Repair vs Cave. Many games I've seen actually had the lobby reset the game if this spawn occurs simply because its totally broken. This is similar to the old Warehouse vs Server Room where each side is constantly contesting cavern, marines always pressuring crusher and quicker access to central and deposit from repair than aliens have from cave. It prevents aliens from taking crusher, struggling to even attack/hold central, similar or longer rush distance to deposit than marines and laneblocked to attack water pumps
- Deposit ARC from Gap, extremely difficult to push back due to long corridor and difficult access for Gorges to hit ARCs similar to Refinery Turbine ARC, Gap also has a very open and PG-friendly area making it difficult to break
MINESHAFT Solutions:
- Fixed Operations vs Cave or Sorting vs Repair spawns. Operations needs to divide attention of either taking central or 2 other TPs, they usually can't hold all 3 positions in a balanced case while for cave it's the same. Sorting vs Repair, contest over crusher and central, Sorting usually have deposit for free and contest either cave or operations. In this position, marines can be down a base but still have good res flow which helps them in taking a 3rd TP later on
- Shorten the corridor entrance from Gap to Deposit allowing easier access for lifeforms to hit ARCs
DOCKING PROBLEMS
- Cafeteria vs Locker Rooms. This is probably the most imbalanced spawn next to Repair vs Cave. Marines cannot take a 3rd TP and they have trouble holding res from such a remote part of the map. If marines want to hold 3TP, they need to hold 5RTs vs a spawn that is much closer to east wing and departures than they are vs a team that has much greater mobility early game. A gorge can waddle to departures faster than marines get there, drop a tunnel and be unbreachable. Simply put, aliens can laneblock and have a MASSIVE mobility advantage
- Generator can be bit from the entrance by Stability, this makes GLs and rifles much more powerful than they should be
DOCKING Solutions:
- Fixed Cafeteria vs Generator or Terminal vs Locker Rooms/Departures Spawns. This gives a chance for marines to take both locker and terminal while it guarantees aliens taking departures. A much fairer game imo.
- Slightly reposition the hive further north allowing the large pipe LoS blockers to block the hive
DESCENT PROBLEMS
- Monorail and Launch Control for marines. In general I dislike this map, reminds me of Eclipse. Vent access to both bases make it difficult to maintain a constant map presence and to laneblock RTs appropriately. While I don't feel that this map is as bad as docking or mineshaft for spawn points, there are slight imbalances that I think need to be highlighted. Monorail is extremely annoying to fight aliens in especially when defending vs skulks as they have many LoS blockers and the capacity to retreat through the vents very easily. On the upside, Mono has some good points like quicker access to Hydro and easy to defend RTs so some slight tweaks and it should be good
- Launch seems to be more difficult than the other spawns to establish presence in Hydro but it also has vent access near the power node allowing gorge rushes to strike really quickly with two exit paths to retreat to if lifeforms need to be saved
DESCENT Solutions:
- Either: Fixed Fabrication vs Drone Bay Spawns or move Launch vent to Shuttle Bay near the dropship and move Monorail vent to Silo. Additional changes, remove or relocate one of the pillars in Monorail that block LoS and increase ceiling height near the CC a bit.
VEIL PROBLEMS
- Gorges are too powerful in the vents of sky/overlook
- Jetpacks absurdly powerful in Cargo but I wouldn't know what to do to fix it without touching GLs or JPs themselves, maybe lowering ceiling height or allowing more crate platforms for skulks to climb on and leap
- Starting Cyst in Pipe is very exposed, easy to hit without being in LoS of the RT itself
VEIL Solutions
- While not a spawn position related problem, I would like to see the vents near skylights and overlook lowered a bit, low like the bar vent on Docking, requires two marines to jump in. Forces a bit of teamwork and removes the blatant problem of gorges camping those vents denying two RTs. This is usually a significant problem before proto is even up but the ramifications are extreme later on. Effectively, this type of play denies two potential RTs for marines
- Move the cyst to behind the RT
REFINERY PROBLEMS
- Some huge problems on this map for spawns
- Smelting can be ARCed from transit, in the corner next to the RT, ARCs are just barely in range of the hive which makes this position extremely powerful and almost impossible to defeat
- Turbine can be ARCed from Chasm at very close range, similar to Transit, it's very difficult in such a narrow long corridor to defeat an ARC push
- Smelting is extremely open, very few opportunities that allow skulks to close the gap quickly making marines extremely efficient in this room, also makes it extremely difficult in defending vs jetpacks
- While not strictly a spawn point, Pipeworks hive can be hit without being inside the actual room, this makes it extremely easy to GL or rifle down the hive from a relatively safe distance
REFINERY Solutions
- Re-position Transit slightly in order to remove the easy ARC position
- Either shorten the southern corridor of Chasm to Transit or add a vent from Turbine to Chasm, Chasm ARC position laneblocks brutally
- Add 1 large crate in the center of the room to help block LoS
- Replace barrels near the Power to a crate that can block LoS, flow control spawn can't hit the hive but containment can very easily from heatsink
BIODOME PROBLEMS
- I've talked a lot about powerful ARC positions but this map lacks any decent ARC position on a spawn point, Hydro cannot be ARCed without forcing them into the hive room, same applies to Platform and Atmosphere requires very close proximity to the hive room allowing Gorges to bile easily without committing
- Many maps have opportunities to ARC from behind such as Locker Rooms in Ball Court on docking, this makes going for sneaky PGs more worthwhile but on biodome, it simply cannot happen
- Both Seeding and Canopy have huge problems, Canopy makes it difficult for a marine to secure it when a skulk is biting down the RT thanks to being able to circle around the center column as a skulk and never be hit while Seeding has three easy attack paths in contrast to Canopy's one while the bridge attack path bypasses many laneblock opportunities
BIODOME Solutions
- Move Platform hive a bit closer to the entrance to Bamboo while keeping the LoS block
- Move Hydro hive closer to the entrance of Analysis while keeping it out of range of ARCs near north-east seeding corner
- Reduce width of Canopy column to allow marines to juke aliens and be able to snipe them off, good aliens will force 2 marines off the field in order to deal with it or destroy an RT
- Move RT in Seeding closer to marine spawn or remove the LoS blocker
Screenshots. Primarily highlight problematic map layout and LoS:
TRAM
- ARC position strength differ wildly based on spawn, WH extremely easy to ARC vs Server
postimg.org/image/o341pnfa1/full/ - Warehouse ARC Position
postimg.org/image/qw7th5a5f/full/ - Server ARC Position
postimg.org/image/wkpnbysqh/full/ - Warehouse Gorge Evolve
postimg.org/image/h8wtsrlez/full/ - Warehouse Gorge Bile Attack
Docking
- Generator too easy to hit
postimg.org/image/l51soo5n5/full/ - Generator Attack from Stab Entrance
Refinery
- OP ARC positions with Pipeworks being too easy to hit based on Containment spawn
postimg.org/image/l877sr9gn/full/ - Transit ARC Position
postimg.org/image/widj6x28z/full/ - Turbine ARC Position
postimg.org/image/q0urs37uf/full/ - Pipeworks Vulnerable from Heatsink
Mineshaft
- Gap ARC too easy/powerful and Repair vs Cave typical map layout
postimg.org/image/obh1ccbmv/full/ - Deposit ARC Position
postimg.org/image/5w4qynw8h/full/ - Aliens best case scenario considering equal teams spawn @ Cave vs Repair, holding 3RTs while Cavern and Crusher always attacked
Biodome
- No balanced ARC positions even when attacking from behind and problems with marine RTs
postimg.org/image/vp7el4455/full/ - LoS blocker making it very difficult to kill the skulk biting RT contrast to RTs on Veil, recommend removing it
postimg.org/image/w2jzc48bx/full/ - LoS blocker column in Canopy, forces two marines to deal with a single skulk on RT pressure
postimg.org/image/iwkpugek1/full/ - Hydro hive cannot be hit without moving ARCs into the base
postimg.org/image/m9orzcfjx/full/ - Closest Platform ARC Position
postimg.org/image/5f8jx3e2h/full/ - Atmosphere ARC Position for a hive spawn, best on the map yet still easy to clear
I would like to thank you for your patience in reading this post. I know that my solutions or even map observations are not perfect or even accurate in the perception of some which is why I'd rather put a constructive post that might help promote change rather than not contribute at all even if it starts discussion on the topic. In the current state of the game, mechanics are very balanced for the most part but I feel that maps are still lagging behind a little bit especially Eclipse but even the most played maps have some problems. Although many problems I show aren't really game breaking, some games end as a result of these problems either prematurely or because these map differences are abused such as WH Gorge abuse or Transit ARC position. Some are more extreme than others while some are very minor like Biodome Canopy and Seeding but I felt it important to mention to see the reception of fellow players.
Thank you and I hope you found my post informative and even helpful in your future development. Kudos to the CDT.
TL;DR - Read it before you comment with critique, I might highlight something you have a problem with in regards to this post. To most competitive players, this probably won't relate to you.
I'm fully expecting some conflicting opinions, hell I might be the only person with concerns over this and I'm not saying I have the correct solutions but they are problems which I feel need to be at least looked at rather than completely ignored. We had in the past, some changes regarding some maps about spawn points and I feel this topic needs to be brought up again. Some maps are fine but not all. I will primarily be focusing on spawn positions rather than overall map design although I will bring it up if its a simple change or something important. I will also be referring to the wild contrast on ARC positions, some maps have broken and straight up OP locations while some maps aren't even considered viable to go for ARCs whether its rushing ARCs or lategame. I will not address ARC positions which I believe to be mostly balanced. Typically this includes a position that has a close proximity to an alien attack path that forces aliens to engage marines to push the ARCs back but does not result in a huge commitment like Warehouse. An example of this would be Elevator Transfer ARC position, easy to setup but also easy to destroy. I will also primarily be referring to ARC positions that threaten spawn locations at the start of the game.
I am also aware of the counter to ARCs such as res biting and base rushing but in most cases regarding the positions I highlight, marines have a PG close to the ARC position but the commander is also very experienced and aware of the possibility of a rush, defeating an ARC push because the marine commander/team doesn't know how to do them I would not consider an appropriate solution. I do consider ARCs a very difficult concept to balance on a map design basis but like I said, when utilized properly, they can be game breaking but also a very strategic option that gives aliens more to think about.
IMPORTANT: Keep in mind I'm strictly looking at PUBLIC PLAY mainly around 16-20 players and up to 24, usually equal teams and the official maps ONLY. This is not addressing balance issues, only problems that I have with certain maps. I will also not be addressing Kodiak or Eclipse as I have not played enough games in order to get a solid critical perspective.
Let's begin:
TRAM PROBLEMS
- Shipping spawn. Not a huge concern but I feel that this position makes it more difficult for marines to sustain 3 bases. Marines usually need to commit 1/3 on each side and 1/3 in hub or pushing platform early game which leads to the problem that aliens only need to commit nearly their entire team to either repair or ET, adjacent TP such as warehouse and server are usually free to take for aliens thus it makes it very easy to drop a tunnel with some excessive defense which makes it difficult for marines to take until much later on
- Warehouse spawn. This has two problems. IF aliens spawn here, marines can commit to an ARC push very early and aliens usually don't have bile or the tech to push it back. This requires marines to have hub which is usually the case for an even team. IF marines spawn here, skulks can evolve into gorge on the railings/platforms near the ceiling and bile bomb the entire base. Often the case, marines don't realise this until the CC is almost dead, IPs are down and anything close by. This is usually before JPs can be upgraded and marines find it very difficult to kill the gorge. End result is always, marines lose a huge amount of res, a lot of map presence and sometimes even ends the game right there
- ARC push on Warehouse is an extreme contrast to other ARC positions where ARCs are much easier to hit, simply put, Server Room is generally a much more preferable spawn
Some TRAM Solutions:
- Don't allow skulks to evolve at the top of warehouse to prevent gorge bile
- Force north spawn into server room, this gives marines better chance to secure repair from shipping and allows for constant contest over ET while it eliminates very early ARC rushes on warehouse
MINESHAFT PROBLEMS
- Repair vs Cave. Many games I've seen actually had the lobby reset the game if this spawn occurs simply because its totally broken. This is similar to the old Warehouse vs Server Room where each side is constantly contesting cavern, marines always pressuring crusher and quicker access to central and deposit from repair than aliens have from cave. It prevents aliens from taking crusher, struggling to even attack/hold central, similar or longer rush distance to deposit than marines and laneblocked to attack water pumps
- Deposit ARC from Gap, extremely difficult to push back due to long corridor and difficult access for Gorges to hit ARCs similar to Refinery Turbine ARC, Gap also has a very open and PG-friendly area making it difficult to break
MINESHAFT Solutions:
- Fixed Operations vs Cave or Sorting vs Repair spawns. Operations needs to divide attention of either taking central or 2 other TPs, they usually can't hold all 3 positions in a balanced case while for cave it's the same. Sorting vs Repair, contest over crusher and central, Sorting usually have deposit for free and contest either cave or operations. In this position, marines can be down a base but still have good res flow which helps them in taking a 3rd TP later on
- Shorten the corridor entrance from Gap to Deposit allowing easier access for lifeforms to hit ARCs
DOCKING PROBLEMS
- Cafeteria vs Locker Rooms. This is probably the most imbalanced spawn next to Repair vs Cave. Marines cannot take a 3rd TP and they have trouble holding res from such a remote part of the map. If marines want to hold 3TP, they need to hold 5RTs vs a spawn that is much closer to east wing and departures than they are vs a team that has much greater mobility early game. A gorge can waddle to departures faster than marines get there, drop a tunnel and be unbreachable. Simply put, aliens can laneblock and have a MASSIVE mobility advantage
- Generator can be bit from the entrance by Stability, this makes GLs and rifles much more powerful than they should be
DOCKING Solutions:
- Fixed Cafeteria vs Generator or Terminal vs Locker Rooms/Departures Spawns. This gives a chance for marines to take both locker and terminal while it guarantees aliens taking departures. A much fairer game imo.
- Slightly reposition the hive further north allowing the large pipe LoS blockers to block the hive
DESCENT PROBLEMS
- Monorail and Launch Control for marines. In general I dislike this map, reminds me of Eclipse. Vent access to both bases make it difficult to maintain a constant map presence and to laneblock RTs appropriately. While I don't feel that this map is as bad as docking or mineshaft for spawn points, there are slight imbalances that I think need to be highlighted. Monorail is extremely annoying to fight aliens in especially when defending vs skulks as they have many LoS blockers and the capacity to retreat through the vents very easily. On the upside, Mono has some good points like quicker access to Hydro and easy to defend RTs so some slight tweaks and it should be good
- Launch seems to be more difficult than the other spawns to establish presence in Hydro but it also has vent access near the power node allowing gorge rushes to strike really quickly with two exit paths to retreat to if lifeforms need to be saved
DESCENT Solutions:
- Either: Fixed Fabrication vs Drone Bay Spawns or move Launch vent to Shuttle Bay near the dropship and move Monorail vent to Silo. Additional changes, remove or relocate one of the pillars in Monorail that block LoS and increase ceiling height near the CC a bit.
VEIL PROBLEMS
- Gorges are too powerful in the vents of sky/overlook
- Jetpacks absurdly powerful in Cargo but I wouldn't know what to do to fix it without touching GLs or JPs themselves, maybe lowering ceiling height or allowing more crate platforms for skulks to climb on and leap
- Starting Cyst in Pipe is very exposed, easy to hit without being in LoS of the RT itself
VEIL Solutions
- While not a spawn position related problem, I would like to see the vents near skylights and overlook lowered a bit, low like the bar vent on Docking, requires two marines to jump in. Forces a bit of teamwork and removes the blatant problem of gorges camping those vents denying two RTs. This is usually a significant problem before proto is even up but the ramifications are extreme later on. Effectively, this type of play denies two potential RTs for marines
- Move the cyst to behind the RT
REFINERY PROBLEMS
- Some huge problems on this map for spawns
- Smelting can be ARCed from transit, in the corner next to the RT, ARCs are just barely in range of the hive which makes this position extremely powerful and almost impossible to defeat
- Turbine can be ARCed from Chasm at very close range, similar to Transit, it's very difficult in such a narrow long corridor to defeat an ARC push
- Smelting is extremely open, very few opportunities that allow skulks to close the gap quickly making marines extremely efficient in this room, also makes it extremely difficult in defending vs jetpacks
- While not strictly a spawn point, Pipeworks hive can be hit without being inside the actual room, this makes it extremely easy to GL or rifle down the hive from a relatively safe distance
REFINERY Solutions
- Re-position Transit slightly in order to remove the easy ARC position
- Either shorten the southern corridor of Chasm to Transit or add a vent from Turbine to Chasm, Chasm ARC position laneblocks brutally
- Add 1 large crate in the center of the room to help block LoS
- Replace barrels near the Power to a crate that can block LoS, flow control spawn can't hit the hive but containment can very easily from heatsink
BIODOME PROBLEMS
- I've talked a lot about powerful ARC positions but this map lacks any decent ARC position on a spawn point, Hydro cannot be ARCed without forcing them into the hive room, same applies to Platform and Atmosphere requires very close proximity to the hive room allowing Gorges to bile easily without committing
- Many maps have opportunities to ARC from behind such as Locker Rooms in Ball Court on docking, this makes going for sneaky PGs more worthwhile but on biodome, it simply cannot happen
- Both Seeding and Canopy have huge problems, Canopy makes it difficult for a marine to secure it when a skulk is biting down the RT thanks to being able to circle around the center column as a skulk and never be hit while Seeding has three easy attack paths in contrast to Canopy's one while the bridge attack path bypasses many laneblock opportunities
BIODOME Solutions
- Move Platform hive a bit closer to the entrance to Bamboo while keeping the LoS block
- Move Hydro hive closer to the entrance of Analysis while keeping it out of range of ARCs near north-east seeding corner
- Reduce width of Canopy column to allow marines to juke aliens and be able to snipe them off, good aliens will force 2 marines off the field in order to deal with it or destroy an RT
- Move RT in Seeding closer to marine spawn or remove the LoS blocker
Screenshots. Primarily highlight problematic map layout and LoS:
TRAM
- ARC position strength differ wildly based on spawn, WH extremely easy to ARC vs Server
postimg.org/image/o341pnfa1/full/ - Warehouse ARC Position
postimg.org/image/qw7th5a5f/full/ - Server ARC Position
postimg.org/image/wkpnbysqh/full/ - Warehouse Gorge Evolve
postimg.org/image/h8wtsrlez/full/ - Warehouse Gorge Bile Attack
Docking
- Generator too easy to hit
postimg.org/image/l51soo5n5/full/ - Generator Attack from Stab Entrance
Refinery
- OP ARC positions with Pipeworks being too easy to hit based on Containment spawn
postimg.org/image/l877sr9gn/full/ - Transit ARC Position
postimg.org/image/widj6x28z/full/ - Turbine ARC Position
postimg.org/image/q0urs37uf/full/ - Pipeworks Vulnerable from Heatsink
Mineshaft
- Gap ARC too easy/powerful and Repair vs Cave typical map layout
postimg.org/image/obh1ccbmv/full/ - Deposit ARC Position
postimg.org/image/5w4qynw8h/full/ - Aliens best case scenario considering equal teams spawn @ Cave vs Repair, holding 3RTs while Cavern and Crusher always attacked
Biodome
- No balanced ARC positions even when attacking from behind and problems with marine RTs
postimg.org/image/vp7el4455/full/ - LoS blocker making it very difficult to kill the skulk biting RT contrast to RTs on Veil, recommend removing it
postimg.org/image/w2jzc48bx/full/ - LoS blocker column in Canopy, forces two marines to deal with a single skulk on RT pressure
postimg.org/image/iwkpugek1/full/ - Hydro hive cannot be hit without moving ARCs into the base
postimg.org/image/m9orzcfjx/full/ - Closest Platform ARC Position
postimg.org/image/5f8jx3e2h/full/ - Atmosphere ARC Position for a hive spawn, best on the map yet still easy to clear
I would like to thank you for your patience in reading this post. I know that my solutions or even map observations are not perfect or even accurate in the perception of some which is why I'd rather put a constructive post that might help promote change rather than not contribute at all even if it starts discussion on the topic. In the current state of the game, mechanics are very balanced for the most part but I feel that maps are still lagging behind a little bit especially Eclipse but even the most played maps have some problems. Although many problems I show aren't really game breaking, some games end as a result of these problems either prematurely or because these map differences are abused such as WH Gorge abuse or Transit ARC position. Some are more extreme than others while some are very minor like Biodome Canopy and Seeding but I felt it important to mention to see the reception of fellow players.
Thank you and I hope you found my post informative and even helpful in your future development. Kudos to the CDT.
TL;DR - Read it before you comment with critique, I might highlight something you have a problem with in regards to this post. To most competitive players, this probably won't relate to you.
Comments
Tram:
* I'd prefere having marines start shipping fixed.
* The gorge biling thing, I don't care either way.
Mineshaft:
* In my opinion it needs a lot more work than just making fixed spawns. Infact, I don't think it makes any difference what so ever. The problem(s) as I see them, is the room layout. Very easy for marines to cut alien expansion.
Docking:
* I think docking is in a good place- locker rooms hive seems a little questionable, but other than that it's ok. I rarely play on this map though, but the games I do play, play as I'd expect. Again, fairly easy to cut the alien expansion, regardless of what hive they have.
Veil:
* You can already jump in the vents from overlook or west junction side as a solo marine. Personally, I really like these kinds of trick jumps in games - but I understand the value in making this particular vent accessible for all players as well. I'm gonna sit on the fence for this one.
* I think it's ok that jetpacks are strong in cargo. It's an endgame tech more often than not.
* The cyst is kind of weird in pipe yea.
Also I'm of the opinion that close spawns should never happen. Ever. They just don't end well as a general rule.
Close spawns in SC2 got removed pretty quickly and while they're mostly gone in NS2, they still remain on some maps which is my main gripe with the map pool.
Veil:
agreed with what you say there all the way
I HATE that cyst in pipe start. The RT should be moved or the cyst should be behind the RT.
Close spawns:
boring as, most of the time. This really shows skill difference between the teams where as team work and strategy matters less as the two teams will constantly contest for the middle area (usually the res node that delineate the 2 spawns).
Other maps:
as per the close spawn comment. I haven't experience much problems on these as I think it does give some character to the maps (eg. this position is better on map X, so we need to push it harder).
On JPs.
Agreed about some tech points are really bad for Kharaa as they are too open:
Cave on Mineshaft
Cargo on Veil
Warehouse on Tram
Generator on Docking
Atrium and possibly Flight Control on Summit
I feel the central hive location on a 5 tech point map should be risky ie. open (as it allows you alot of map control).
Really good to hear opinion about maps and not about an 'OP' mechanic.
Transit / Smelting location is broken as you have mention (I didn't know you can ARC the hive from there). Definitely fix that one. But the Turbine location I don't see as an issue as there is very short travel between hive and arcs, so that location can be defended (if hard).
I see a location is OP if the marines can push forward to a long corridor and leave the arcs to take down the hive (and its a long travel for Kharaa). So the Transit ARCs fit that, but the Turbine ARCs do not. There may be other location you mentioned that fit my description of OP but I didn't mention (I am Cherry picking my argument a little).
good job @RaZDaZ
Taking this into account.
Shipping spawn actually helps denying the 3rd alien tech point because res biting is less effective at pulling marines out of position than a north marine spawn.
Warehouse start, skulks that leak into mezz/server/platform can keep marines entertained in top right tech point.
Marine shipping spawn, skulks in logistics are cleared on the way to repair, same with observation and elevator.
Marine server room spawn, skulks harrassing ore processing/warehouse leaves north tunnels open to get to platform/mezz.
But that's the beauty of the map. North spawn has the chance for more RTs but south spawn has better zoning opportunities to keep RTs alive. The map is played differently depending on spawn which makes it very refreshing.
ARCs are fine for this hive and map. I've seen them work and I've seen them defeated. You said you understand res biting is one counter but you don't want to discuss it which kind of makes this point moot.
Skulks evolving on the rafters in marine spawn is just very very bad awareness by the marines and as such is just a lack of "skill".
Again, each hive has it's merits. Warehouse hive gives quicker access to mezz vent to defend the entire top right of map. Server room provides less access to the top left side of map but is (arguably) more preferable to counter ARCs. Different spawns give variety to strategy and play on 1 map is a bonus IMO.
1. Doesn't matter imo.
2. No, it's really not that big an issue to FORCE a spawn. It's a good map as it is.
Vent access is perfect for zoning skulks into a base rush. If you are aware of skulk presence on the map, you can leave yourself vulnerable in an attempt to bait base and clear the skulks with 2 marines + commander whilst you have 5-8 other marines out on the field clearing up res. It is actually a wonderful map for this kind of strategic genius and breaks up the classic "build this RT, move onto next room, build next RT" by providing real food for thought on decision making.
You can get in the vent at overlook and west junction.
Jetpacks are end game and fades/lerks don't have too big a problem.
Agreed on the cyst.
Already low enough for 2 marines to boost in.
Perhaps ARCing hives is more difficult, but filtration/falls/agri labs are all ridiculously easy and safe to ARC leaving aliens on little res. (I tested this map and voiced my opinion on the ARC spots but it was thought in that current state of game that it would be fine.)
Both marine naturals (Canopy and seeding) are ridiculously hard to bite as skulks. Canopy offers a stupid safe spot for skulks 1v1. That room needs to be rethought so that it's easier for skulks to escape but can't waste 1v1 time. Seeding is just too open a room and needs to be a bit narrower.
No problems
No problems except the canopy tree. ARCs still are useful for those hive positions to take out PvE (Crags, whips, shifts) and are ridiculously OP for filtration/falls/agri labs
Im pretty sure they intended that though.