Dota 2 also needs good coordination but it's the most played game on steam.
I agree (!!!!!).
There, i said it.
It's the combination of technical skills (aim, dodging etc), map-knowledge (often overlooked i think), rule/game mechanic knowledge and teamplay / communication which make NS2 its own and very complex beast and with that not for everyone.
"who in their right mind would market a product to a niche crowd instead of where the money is : the masses"
Was that rhetorical or Sarcastic or something other than serious?
Are you telling me I'm going to get rich by innovating another $2 chocolate bar? As opposed to, say, a real time in flight finite element analysis module for experimental aircraft?
At the risk of getting roped back into this horseshit discussion I only recently opted out of:
I think he's saying that it is better to market such a module to the masses, rather than to the specific customers that would buy such a niche product.
So I guess we can all look forward to seeing real time in flight finite element analysis modules for experimental aircraft on QVC this fall.
"who in their right mind would market a product to a niche crowd instead of where the money is : the masses"
Was that rhetorical or Sarcastic or something other than serious?
Are you telling me I'm going to get rich by innovating another $2 chocolate bar? As opposed to, say, a real time in flight finite element analysis module for experimental aircraft?
At the risk of getting roped back into this horseshit discussion I only recently opted out of:
I think he's saying that it is better to market such a module to the masses, rather than to the specific customers that would buy such a niche product.
So I guess we can all look forward to seeing real time in flight finite element analysis modules for experimental aircraft on QVC this fall.
The target markets for the $2 chocolate bar and the real time in-flight finite element analysis modules for experimental aircraft are wildly different, and the products, their production, and their intrinsic value are wildly different. NS2 is a computer game, and therefore has more-or-less the same target market as other computer games, has roughly the same intrinsic value and is broadly very similar to other computer games.
This is entirely an unreasonable comparison from OnosFactory.
Yes, I agree that there are differences between NS2 and, let's say CODBLOPS. But no, these differences are essentially zero in comparison to the differences between a chocolate bar and a technical product.
It makes logical sense to market NS2 to as many gamers as possible, even if that goes against the grain (because we NS2ers are of course far superior beings to other computer gamers).
Yes some products make money in a niche sector because of factors like government contracts, or because their targeted audience spends a lot on that special item, or is in a unique product line of its own etc
But we're talking about a product competing in a *highly* saturated market place where there exists a price range and a platform in which you adhere to and sell on. Their game may be an old-school niche fps / rts twitch shooter.... But as a developer looking to make money to continue existing being a developer, you would definitely attempt to make it accessible in order to sell more copies.
It's just that simple. You don't exclusively target a small crowd to sell your video game if you want to make lots of money - even if your product naturally attracts that certain small crowd.
I'm surprised some of you don't see this?
I've always been bothered when people try to compare the difficulties of multiplayer games. In my experience, the difficulty of a game can not be determined by any sort of mechanic. It is solely dependant on the quality of the players. You guys all know this - play on a rookie server and suddently NS2 is not that difficult, and you don't need an ocean of knowledge about the game to compete at this level.
While I agree, that NS2 has a lot of hidden stuff that you need to learn and that is one of the things that separates it from most mainstream video games, it's not the real source of the difficulty or new players frustrations. NS2 is difficult, because the quality of the players is much higher compared to most other games.
Imo, there's only one way to remedy the frustration that new players get from a highly competetive game like ns2, it's complete segregation from the veteran scene. I.e. matchmaking or rookie only servers.
Edit: Perhaps not complete segregation, but make it so that the rookies who are interested in learning, actually have to make some small amount of effort to find veterans when they are ready and not before.
It's just that simple. You don't exclusively target a small crowd to sell your video game if you want to make lots of money - even if your product naturally attracts that certain small crowd.
I'm surprised some of you don't see this?
Oh I see that. You'll notice in another comment where I musingly suggested Dark-Souls type marketing - that it's not necessarily the way to go.
You were just talking about niche marketing in a very broad all-encompassing way. E.g.
I thought this was a fair thing to say. Why on earth did it EVER need a back and forth. This may be about games, but mine was a generalized comment in response to your generalized comment - and it stood on it's own. There was no need to pick it apart because there was absolutely nothing incorrect with what I said. I never said anything about exclusivity. I never said anything about it only applying to games.
Yes some products make money in a niche sector because of factors like government contracts, or because their targeted audience spends a lot on that special item, or is in a unique product line of its own etc
Then there was NOTHING wrong with what I said. If you really understood that from the getgo, then I have to wonder why you began replying to my comment in the first place.
On the topic of games, it is my personal opinion that NS2 may (*includes the possibility that it may not) benefit from niche marketing. Yes - It cannot be exclusive. That is not wise if you want to generate as many sales as possible, and I agree with you on this (but also feel that every comment in this thread shouldn't be bogged down into exclusively discussing exclusivity because of two small, very easily overlooked, words in the OP).
For example, are you saying that there is no benefit of showcasing a product like NS2 in a LAN, or as an advert during an e-sports events, with advertising specifically targeting this scene? (as long as this isn't the ONLY type of marketing you do. So this does not exclude you from trying to make the game accessible as well)
Likewise, is there no benefit of featuring lego games in a kid's magazine or on the Disney channel. Is there no benefit of featuring a game like Rock Band in a music magazine?
I never even considered the chocolate bar. You're replying to me when you should be replying to OnosFactory. Yes, it was an unreasonable comparison - I never made it or agreed to it.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Fair enough considering the word Niche, technically means "a specialized but profitable corner of the market." :P
So to clarify, my only concern was his suggestion of exclusively marketing to that small crowd.
You may not have been speaking about exclusivity when you responded.. but I clearly was, and you responded to me. Hence the back and forth.
I think we're on the same page now.. moving on?
Imo, there's only one way to remedy the frustration that new players get from a highly competetive game like ns2, it's complete segregation from the veteran scene. I.e. matchmaking or rookie only servers.
Edit: Perhaps not complete segregation, but make it so that the rookies who are interested in learning, actually have to make some small amount of effort to find veterans when they are ready and not before.
There's simply not enough players for matchmaking or rookie-only servers (at least, I can't see the playerbase sustaining it down under).
Maybe have rookie-only servers during a sale. However, even then there might not be enough people. Green waves seem to be getting smaller and smaller.
Imo, there's only one way to remedy the frustration that new players get from a highly competetive game like ns2, it's complete segregation from the veteran scene. I.e. matchmaking or rookie only servers.
Edit: Perhaps not complete segregation, but make it so that the rookies who are interested in learning, actually have to make some small amount of effort to find veterans when they are ready and not before.
There's simply not enough players for matchmaking or rookie-only servers (at least, I can't see the playerbase sustaining it down under).
Maybe have rookie-only servers during a sale. However, even then there might not be enough people. Green waves seem to be getting smaller and smaller.
I agree that the player-base is too low by now. Perhaps not implementing such sooner was a mistake. So I guess, rookies will have to deal with the frustration.
This game really needs to blunt the edges which make the game unbalanced. Making upgrades only slightly more effective, not bloody game changing constantly. You don't get a good power struggle in this game, except when players leave.
This game really needs to blunt the edges which make the game unbalanced. Making upgrades only slightly more effective, not bloody game changing constantly. You don't get a good power struggle in this game, except when players leave.
UWE really screwed up NS2.
I disagree with that first part, but the last comment... I'd say its only 'screwed up' BC it's too different from ns1 (it's a different game of course, just didn't give as much of that ns1 play for old ns1 vets). That's my opinion, anyway.
Hello! I just bought NS2 on steam sale recently. I find the game to be super fun overall, and best game I played in a long time. I would like to say what bothers me as a newbie, and what potentially drives masses away.
People these days want to jump in the game, and be thought how to play in the game. This is the big one. If you have a complex game like Starcraft 2 or NS 2 it better have awesome step by step tutorial. Starcraft 2 has great tutorial, it has those challenges or what are they called, in game help with unit stats etc. and also has singleplayer that also acts as a tutorial of sorts, because it is easier and less complex in the beginning and gets more complex and harder later on. NS has neither. NS was supposed to have super fun step by step comprehensive tutorial for both races from DAY 1 if it wanted to have better success. Everything about comm interface, commanding, challenges for you to accomplish, tutorial for each unit etc. If you want masses to play you need to treat them like a baby you're trying to learn how to talk. Not direct them to wiki, bunch of tooltips and YT videos. And btw, what is with those comm bots, they don't work.
People these days want to jump in the game, and be thought how to play in the game. This is the big one. If you have a complex game like Starcraft 2 or NS 2 it better have awesome step by step tutorial. Starcraft 2 has great tutorial, it has those challenges or what are they called, in game help with unit stats etc. and also has singleplayer that also acts as a tutorial of sorts, because it is easier and less complex in the beginning and gets more complex and harder later on. NS has neither. NS was supposed to have super fun step by step comprehensive tutorial for both races from DAY 1 if it wanted to have better success. Everything about comm interface, commanding, challenges for you to accomplish, tutorial for each unit etc. If you want masses to play you need to treat them like a baby you're trying to learn how to talk. Not direct them to wiki, bunch of tooltips and YT videos. And btw, what is with those comm bots, they don't work.
Some players are just not good enough for NS2, am sorry but there not, they don't have the time, they rage at the smallest things,
We have other games to thank for this, as people look at ns2, think oh let's shoot some aliens, join a server and get stomped, not because there super bad. But because other Fps games have given them bad habits "solo" death match habits, waiting on the aerial drop cause they got 3 kills......
But really you need teamwork, you need to play smart, and you need to listen, if toucan do that, you will get better,
Don't always blame other games for people not understanding this game's gameplay. This sounds like 'video killed the radio star'. Plus, the argument gets old... my opinion , anyway.
Comments
This is a great idea.
I agree (!!!!!).
There, i said it.
It's the combination of technical skills (aim, dodging etc), map-knowledge (often overlooked i think), rule/game mechanic knowledge and teamplay / communication which make NS2 its own and very complex beast and with that not for everyone.
At the risk of getting roped back into this horseshit discussion I only recently opted out of:
I think he's saying that it is better to market such a module to the masses, rather than to the specific customers that would buy such a niche product.
So I guess we can all look forward to seeing real time in flight finite element analysis modules for experimental aircraft on QVC this fall.
The target markets for the $2 chocolate bar and the real time in-flight finite element analysis modules for experimental aircraft are wildly different, and the products, their production, and their intrinsic value are wildly different. NS2 is a computer game, and therefore has more-or-less the same target market as other computer games, has roughly the same intrinsic value and is broadly very similar to other computer games.
This is entirely an unreasonable comparison from OnosFactory.
Yes, I agree that there are differences between NS2 and, let's say CODBLOPS. But no, these differences are essentially zero in comparison to the differences between a chocolate bar and a technical product.
It makes logical sense to market NS2 to as many gamers as possible, even if that goes against the grain (because we NS2ers are of course far superior beings to other computer gamers).
Yes some products make money in a niche sector because of factors like government contracts, or because their targeted audience spends a lot on that special item, or is in a unique product line of its own etc
But we're talking about a product competing in a *highly* saturated market place where there exists a price range and a platform in which you adhere to and sell on. Their game may be an old-school niche fps / rts twitch shooter.... But as a developer looking to make money to continue existing being a developer, you would definitely attempt to make it accessible in order to sell more copies.
It's just that simple. You don't exclusively target a small crowd to sell your video game if you want to make lots of money - even if your product naturally attracts that certain small crowd.
I'm surprised some of you don't see this?
While I agree, that NS2 has a lot of hidden stuff that you need to learn and that is one of the things that separates it from most mainstream video games, it's not the real source of the difficulty or new players frustrations. NS2 is difficult, because the quality of the players is much higher compared to most other games.
Imo, there's only one way to remedy the frustration that new players get from a highly competetive game like ns2, it's complete segregation from the veteran scene. I.e. matchmaking or rookie only servers.
Edit: Perhaps not complete segregation, but make it so that the rookies who are interested in learning, actually have to make some small amount of effort to find veterans when they are ready and not before.
Oh I see that. You'll notice in another comment where I musingly suggested Dark-Souls type marketing - that it's not necessarily the way to go.
You were just talking about niche marketing in a very broad all-encompassing way. E.g.
You'll notice that this was all that was said originally:
I thought this was a fair thing to say. Why on earth did it EVER need a back and forth. This may be about games, but mine was a generalized comment in response to your generalized comment - and it stood on it's own. There was no need to pick it apart because there was absolutely nothing incorrect with what I said. I never said anything about exclusivity. I never said anything about it only applying to games.
Because as long as this is true: Then there was NOTHING wrong with what I said. If you really understood that from the getgo, then I have to wonder why you began replying to my comment in the first place.
On the topic of games, it is my personal opinion that NS2 may (*includes the possibility that it may not) benefit from niche marketing. Yes - It cannot be exclusive. That is not wise if you want to generate as many sales as possible, and I agree with you on this (but also feel that every comment in this thread shouldn't be bogged down into exclusively discussing exclusivity because of two small, very easily overlooked, words in the OP).
For example, are you saying that there is no benefit of showcasing a product like NS2 in a LAN, or as an advert during an e-sports events, with advertising specifically targeting this scene? (as long as this isn't the ONLY type of marketing you do. So this does not exclude you from trying to make the game accessible as well)
Likewise, is there no benefit of featuring lego games in a kid's magazine or on the Disney channel. Is there no benefit of featuring a game like Rock Band in a music magazine?
I never even considered the chocolate bar. You're replying to me when you should be replying to OnosFactory. Yes, it was an unreasonable comparison - I never made it or agreed to it.
So to clarify, my only concern was his suggestion of exclusively marketing to that small crowd.
You may not have been speaking about exclusivity when you responded.. but I clearly was, and you responded to me. Hence the back and forth.
I think we're on the same page now.. moving on?
There's simply not enough players for matchmaking or rookie-only servers (at least, I can't see the playerbase sustaining it down under).
Maybe have rookie-only servers during a sale. However, even then there might not be enough people. Green waves seem to be getting smaller and smaller.
I agree that the player-base is too low by now. Perhaps not implementing such sooner was a mistake. So I guess, rookies will have to deal with the frustration.
Well then, i'd say the ARMA series is an untapped goldmine in that case, go gettem.
http://forums.bistudio.com/
http://reddit.com/r/arma
UWE really screwed up NS2.
I disagree with that first part, but the last comment... I'd say its only 'screwed up' BC it's too different from ns1 (it's a different game of course, just didn't give as much of that ns1 play for old ns1 vets). That's my opinion, anyway.
People these days want to jump in the game, and be thought how to play in the game. This is the big one. If you have a complex game like Starcraft 2 or NS 2 it better have awesome step by step tutorial. Starcraft 2 has great tutorial, it has those challenges or what are they called, in game help with unit stats etc. and also has singleplayer that also acts as a tutorial of sorts, because it is easier and less complex in the beginning and gets more complex and harder later on. NS has neither. NS was supposed to have super fun step by step comprehensive tutorial for both races from DAY 1 if it wanted to have better success. Everything about comm interface, commanding, challenges for you to accomplish, tutorial for each unit etc. If you want masses to play you need to treat them like a baby you're trying to learn how to talk. Not direct them to wiki, bunch of tooltips and YT videos. And btw, what is with those comm bots, they don't work.
Couldn't have said it better.
Joking: Nawwww, here I was assuming you could all fly!
Fair enough, we cannot all fly so why use that comparison?
We have other games to thank for this, as people look at ns2, think oh let's shoot some aliens, join a server and get stomped, not because there super bad. But because other Fps games have given them bad habits "solo" death match habits, waiting on the aerial drop cause they got 3 kills......
But really you need teamwork, you need to play smart, and you need to listen, if toucan do that, you will get better,