Ok - 5 gorges trundling along to base to bile and guess what, oh look, a single marine has spotted them. Managed to kill 2 of the gorges before dying, and is now respawning ready to kill the remaining 3 when they get in the base.
Cool story brah, I'd like to see you take on 5 gorges with only 2 lives.
If commander doesn't scan a tunnel or warn for a possibility of said tunnel being in an area... and no beacon with a bb rush... commanders fault, late game - look for tunnels for rushes.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
When the player count increases, the possible damage output at any one place also goes up. As structures don't scale, they effectively become more and more fragile.
This changes the game, making it more unpredictable and prone to sudden changes in outcome.
Good or bad? Well ... hard to say. It does not seem to be unplayable, even at 42 player servers.
The crucial point here is fragility - a single gorge jumping into a base will probably damage a lot of structures, but before any structure has been killed, marines will have had time to react and defend.
12 gorges ... will wipe the base before the marines have time to react. OTOH, 12 skulks attacking an undefended base will have a good chance of doing the same... so the real problem isn't the bilebomb, it's just plain fragility.
OP is a known troll matso and this is likely a troll thread (along with the 'players jacking up stats' one).
There is no need for further discussion in either of them, as neither threads have been created on the back of a legitimate complaint. It's just some guy getting amusement out of us discussing this as if he were serious.
Is it possible in LUA for these larger servers to increase the HP of structures?
The concept of dynamic HP for structures was brought up a while ago (i think even before offical release), but it never got any traction, though it seemed to be considered a generally good idea.
They already scale eggs with playercount, why not buildings*.
*With the exception of Extractors. It already takes a while to nom down an extractor, and a painfully long time to weld it.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
@freebirdpat : it is possible to do something. On The Ticks server (not 42 players, but I think its 30 or something), bile damage reduced by 10% out right to slow down the all in bile attack. It isn't scaled, but I think that is a pretty good compromise without doing a lot of coding.
Is it possible in LUA for these larger servers to increase the HP of structures?
The concept of dynamic HP for structures was brought up a while ago (i think even before offical release), but it never got any traction, though it seemed to be considered a generally good idea.
They already scale eggs with playercount, why not buildings*.
*With the exception of Extractors. It already takes a while to nom down an extractor, and a painfully long time to weld it.
It would be confusing. Server has X players playing now, so HP is Y, and 6 people just left the server so HP is now Z. Try and keep up with that.
Do you seriously know how much HP a hive, or a whip has offhand without looking it up? Lets say normal hp for a structure is 10k, at 20 players it is still 10k but for every 2 players added to the game, maybe a certain % is added to total hp ie 1-10%. You have a small base number and then anything over that gives a small % boost to all structures total HP, when those players leave it goes back to base %.
The coordination of many gorges preparing to do a bile rush is easily trumped by having an attentive commander who scans his main base's flankinhmg rooms. Also having people watch lanes.
Also dropping a 2nd CC and backup arms/IP should be common practice if you are doing extremely well b/c tres shouldn't be a problem.
Do you seriously know how much HP a hive, or a whip has offhand without looking it up? Lets say normal hp for a structure is 10k, at 20 players it is still 10k but for every 2 players added to the game, maybe a certain % is added to total hp ie 1-10%. You have a small base number and then anything over that gives a small % boost to all structures total HP, when those players leave it goes back to base %.
My concern there would be if a structure was under attack, gets to like 3% health, team saves it, but did not heal. Suddenly 2 people have left the server and that hp boost drops,
Does the structure die? Only a fraction of a percentage hp left?
I think I don't like the idea of structures gaining and losing hp as the match continues.
If that arms lab is at 3% at 12v12 players, it would still be at 3% at 6v6, only the value would change.
On the same note, it might be beneficial to only have primary structures (CC+Base Power and Hive) scale with players, or at least scale the most. It could even change up some tactics on large servers since it might be easier to take out that arms lab or AA in stead of always zergging the power or hive.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2014
I don't like the idea of dynamic HP on building, as it is a hidden variable that assumes players will know (and adapt their tactics accordingly). The game is complex enough as it is. When people complain about bile rush on large servers, they forget that:
There are more aliens yes, but there are also more marines. So if you can't spare a marine out of 10+ to patrol an area, then it is really your team's fault. I know the argument, hey they are pubs that have a mix of skills, and you shouldn't expect 1-2 marines that will do the right thing and patrol base... That is true, however by that same logic, you shouldn't expect a balanced game given the game was never really meant to be balanced on these said large servers (20+) (hence rushing anything with AoE damage = win on large servers - xeno anyone?).
As to the bile = OP when 6 aliens go gorge and bile rush a base taking it down in 6 seconds... That is the meta for larger servers I am afraid. Why try to fix something that isn't really meant to be in the game. I don't hate large servers, I play on them (just not often), but its a entirely different game, and I don't think vanilla NS2 should try and cater for that. It is easy enough for larger server admins to make / get a mod that would balance it some what (eg. nerf bile damage a little).
edit: tone down my definition of large from 24 to 20.
There's no need for it. Bile rushes aren't OP on 24 players, anything beyond that should never have any consideration to be balanced. Bile rushes on 24 or less are successful because of misplay and laziness, not because they are OP.
12 gorges ... will wipe the base before the marines have time to react. OTOH, 12 skulks attacking an undefended base will have a good chance of doing the same... so the real problem isn't the bilebomb, it's just plain fragility.
This is largely true, but as with most things, it comes down to the players. A good marine team will see this coming -- either from the comm with obs, or simply scouting. When you have 20 marines on the field you get a lot a map coverage. Then a beacon before the rush arrives can not only prevent the rush from succeeding, but can be intercepted before they arrive.
Similarly, one would think an 18 marine GL-rush would be unstoppable on large servers, but I've seen this fail more times than it succeeds.
Good or bad? Well ... hard to say. It does not seem to be unplayable, even at 42 player servers.
That's the thing. Unless you play on large servers regularly, it's hard to get a picture of how well NS2 scales -- and after spending months playing on large servers now it's actually not too bad. That's not to say that it's perfect, but it's very close to the mark. I think that's a testament to UWE's design.
One just needs to remember that more players means both a) small server strats doesn't necessarily work the same way anymore and b) new strategies arise that are only possible with more players. You get a different, but equally challenging, game.
12 gorges ... will wipe the base before the marines have time to react. OTOH, 12 skulks attacking an undefended base will have a good chance of doing the same... so the real problem isn't the bilebomb, it's just plain fragility.
This is largely true, but as with most things, it comes down to the players. A good marine team will see this coming -- either from the comm with obs, or simply scouting. When you have 20 marines on the field you get a lot a map coverage. Then a beacon before the rush arrives can not only prevent the rush from succeeding, but can be intercepted before they arrive.
Similarly, one would think an 18 marine GL-rush would be unstoppable on large servers, but I've seen this fail more times than it succeeds.
Good or bad? Well ... hard to say. It does not seem to be unplayable, even at 42 player servers.
That's the thing. Unless you play on large servers regularly, it's hard to get a picture of how well NS2 scales -- and after spending months playing on large servers now it's actually not too bad. That's not to say that it's perfect, but it's very close to the mark. I think that's a testament to UWE's design.
One just needs to remember that more players means both a) small server strats doesn't necessarily work the same way anymore and b) new strategies arise that are only possible with more players. You get a different, but equally challenging, game.
same way upgrades first i don't think is as strong on larger servers. because medpacks can't be used as frequently. dropping armories are probably more economical and phase gate and ips probably do a bit more to reduce the cost of medding.
xeno becomes a bit stronger because you have more targets, and bile becomes stronger because you can afford more gorges.
lerks become riskier and drifter support stronger, because more targets for the same res investment. all things are changed a bit, but overall balance isn't thrown too askew.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@Martigen
Ehh.. I know the individual's impact in larger games is lessened, but the sheer nature of increasing player counts within the same sized environments with the same structure values is going to offer gameplay which is more binary.
By that, I mean gameplay which can end the round without contention / a say from the opposing team, like from 12 players suddenly bile bombing or 12 GL + JP marines. The chair and the hive will both melt.
This is both because of the lack of scaling as well as the increased likelihood of worse coordination due to the logistics and impracticality of coordination with such numbers and such variance in skill.
Basically : Teamwork (the requirement to win in NS2) in larger player count games is much more impacting than typical player counts, probably to the point of breaking things and creating unintended consequences (like melting a chair faster than the average human interaction, let alone the specific programmed time to beacon a team) and therefore an experience that may not be as fun or fair.
@Martigen
Ehh.. I know the individual's impact in larger games is lessened, but the sheer nature of increasing player counts within the same sized environments with the same structure values is going to offer gameplay which is more binary.
By that, I mean gameplay which can end the round without contention / a say from the opposing team, like from 12 players suddenly bile bombing or 12 GL + JP marines. The chair and the hive will both melt.
This is both because of the lack of scaling as well as the increased likelihood of worse coordination due to the logistics and impracticality of coordination with such numbers and such variance in skill.
Basically : Teamwork (the requirement to win in NS2) in larger player count games is much more impacting than typical player counts, probably to the point of breaking things and creating unintended consequences (like melting a chair faster than the average human interaction, let alone the specific programmed time to beacon a team) and therefore an experience that may not be as fun or fair.
See, there's a lot of 'may's ' and 'probably's in that, and this is a small bugbear of mine.
So many who post this view actually haven't spent much time, if at all, playing on large servers. So the comments come from a souce of extrapolating your experience of standard server sizes to larger ones, and logically thinking what might happen. And that's fine, I used to think exactly the same.
But actually playing for a few months on large servers, it's everything you haven't thought about with the interaction of many players that makes a difference.
I've already shared how I've seen GL-rushes fail more times than they succeed, as well as how bile rushes fail -- again, scouting is easy with 20 people, and you can intercept rushes before they even hit the base. Do they work sometimes? Sure they do, just as they work sometimes on a small server (six skulks can kill marine base power or obs to prevent response quickly). But not as often as you might think.
You mention JP+GL? What do you think happens when you have four-five gorges healing a hive, multiple fades and lerks and a bunch of skulks in that hive fight? No, the hive does not melt. The gorges alone turn the fight. You'll hear, if you play on these servers, the commander shouting 'Kill the gorges first!'. On a small server, you don't have to worry about this, you can have six players GLing a hive and a lone gorge won't prevent that. This is not true on a large server. And while you have more marines shooting... they're dealing with more aliens killing them.
Just think about that for a moment. That's a completely new result of gameplay, a changing of priorities in a hive assault. How awesome is that for diversity?
Your comments on comm chair? Multiple obs fix that, though that's rarely necessary in my experience, as does having multiple chairs -- you'll see IPs built at more than one hive regularly, taking advantage of having more marines spawning in more than one location. This is costly and hard to defend on small servers, but not so much on large. Wait? Isn't that a massive advantage? Well, you'd think so, but then you've got more aliens attacking two locations now and splitting marine forces... etc.. etc...
What about structure fragility? Don't nodes go down quicker? Yes, they do, thank fruck -- taking way one of the more boring aspects of the game. But they're also recapped quicker, it's easier to defend them with more people buying mines... etc etc.
For everything you think large servers might unbalance, I've seen a counter. This is why I've explained many times that a) small server tactics don't always work the same and b) new tactics arise that only large servers provide. And some of them are brilliant.
It's actually facinating to see how players individually adapt and work as a team when in larger numbers. I guarantee things happen that you haven't thought of or can predict.
This is why it's a little frustrating reading comments about how NS2 doesn't scale well, when they're always from people I don't see every night playing on large servers. Logically, those with the most experience on large servers are more suited to commenting on large server games, yes? Yet, voices like mine with months of experience on large servers are dismissed, you don't agree because you can't see how it can work. And I understand that, I was the same. But once you spent enough time on one, you realise there's a wealth of tactics and strategy -- counter and counter-counter -- that can only occur with more people in the game. And it's a heck of a lot fun.
Is it perfect? No, as I said some changes could make them run smoother (like spawning 3 IPs for marines at start, rather relying on a server script to do this) but as I've also said, it's very close to the mark. Marine/Aliens wins are roughly 50/50. The truth is, just like on smaller servers, the outcome of a game is hevily weighted by the skill and experience of the teams.
Anyway, another wall of text from me. I just would like those who are adamant that NS2 doesn't scale well to consider that maybe it actually does, from someone who has spent months playing on large servers, due to all the things you haven't thought of that you can only understand once you've seen how people and tactics adapt with more players in the game. And that while it's a different NS2 experience, it's one that's just as a valid.
I use words like "may" because I do not like speaking in absolutes, mostly because it sounds preachy and condescending. This doesn't mean that I haven't played an amount of time in large servers that allows me to make an assessment?? Of course I have played in these servers, and of course i have my opinion about them. I can typically experience something that is working incorrectly (Read: broken and/or unintended) due to the higher playercount within the first 2 minutes of a round. It's not hard to spot.. you really don't need to be "playing every night on large servers" to see it.
But this is really besides the point.. you are only comparing elements that scale (players) instead of elements that do not (static cooldown values, structure values and size of environments).. which really do not require anecdotal evidence to see how it could be a problem, anyways.
Also, you are suggesting that these large pub servers are able to coordinate well enough to counter every element which is otherwise imbalanced. Sorry, but that sounds incredibly unrealistic. Every pub player "scouting" and communicating effectively? lol..
I've played pubs (Exclusively) and these servers enough to know how that's just not the case. Again, both due to the sheer logistics of coordinating that many effectively, as well as the variance /unreliability in skill. Hell, those two factors alone make countering tactics in a typical sized pub game difficult to the point where landslide wins are more common place than a balanced round!
No offense, but have you considered that you may not be seeing where the broken, unintended and imbalanced elements occur?
@Martigen
I can typically experience something that is working incorrectly (Read: broken and/or unintended) due to the higher playercount within the first 2 minutes of a round. It's not hard to spot.. you really don't need to be "playing every night on large servers" to see it.
That's the rub, some things may certainly be unintended compared to a smaller server and the original design of the game, but they're working none the less. It's not like you join a large server, and the experience is completely broken -- if that were the case, the servers wouldn't populated at all. What we see is the exact opposite, they're very popular.
But this is really besides the point.. you are only comparing elements that scale (players) instead of elements that do not (static cooldown values, structure values and size of environments).. which really do not require anecdotal evidence to see how it could be a problem, anyways.
You're right, static values don't scale, but are they a problem or do they play into the solution? As I explained on res nodes, the fact they can fall quickly to both sides would indicate they would need their health buffed on large servers, in order to maintain the original dynamic of the game, correct? Same could be said for Obs etc (so rines have more time to react to an obs getting eaten by a lot of skulks for eg) But as it stands now, this doesn't actually play out as an issue in-game, and in fact if we did buff them we'd change the dynamic of the game as it plays at the moment -- not to say this isn't a bad idea, I'd be curious to see the effect -- but what I'm trying to show is that what you think is an issue based on experience on smaller servers isn't necessarily the case in practice.
If the goal is to have NS2 play on large servers as it plays on small -- then yes, you'd need to do things like scale structure health. But what if the goal isn't have large servers play exactly the same as small ones? The dyanmic of more players with the current balance on strucutres, player health etc leads to a different NS2 experience and different tactics. It actually works better than you think it would. This isn't just my opinion, again if it wasn't fun and engaging, these servers wouldn't have lasted long. Instead, you have to queue to get on them every night.
And yes if you've gotten on large servers and expected the experience of a small one, then I can completely understand your point of view. Maybe the difference is I, and presumably most everyone else joining them, don't expect that.
Also, you are suggesting that these large pub servers are able to coordinate well enough to counter every element which is otherwise imbalanced. Sorry, but that sounds incredibly unrealistic. Every pub player "scouting" and communicating effectively? lol..
I've played pubs (Exclusively) and these servers enough to know how that's just not the case. Again, both due to the sheer logistics of coordinating that many effectively, as well as the variance /unreliability in skill. Hell, those two factors alone make countering tactics in a typical sized pub game difficult to the point where landslide wins are more common place than a balanced round!
I agree completely It's exactly as you said -- these factors are the same for small servers, too. Whether there's good teamwork or not is entirely dependent on the players. Some games there's amazing team work, some games it's appaling! This isn't a function of server size, it's a function of pubs.
And yes in some cases more players does counter some of the issues you might otherwise expect from other 'unintended' consequences of large servers. What can I say, proof is in the pudding.
No offense, but have you considered that you may not be seeing where the broken, unintended and imbalanced elements occur?
See above But also, again as above, maybe I just get on them with the expectation to have fun and an open mind. I will be the first to say don't join a large server if you want a 'serious' game, with more sneaking around and 1-on-1 battles between rines and aliens.
Conversely, if you want some intense hive battles, epic base defenses, more back and forth taking of hives (it's amazing what aliens can do with more tunnels) and the sight of fifteen rines throwing themselves against every combination of alien life form, get on a large server. You can't get this experience on a small one.
I use words like "may" because I do not like speaking in absolutes, mostly because it sounds preachy and condescending. This doesn't mean that I haven't played an amount of time in large servers that allows me to make an assessment?? Of course I have played in these servers, and of course i have my opinion about them. I can typically experience something that is working incorrectly (Read: broken and/or unintended) due to the higher playercount within the first 2 minutes of a round. It's not hard to spot.. you really don't need to be "playing every night on large servers" to see it.
But this is really besides the point.. you are only comparing elements that scale (players) instead of elements that do not (static cooldown values, structure values and size of environments).. which really do not require anecdotal evidence to see how it could be a problem, anyways.
Also, you are suggesting that these large pub servers are able to coordinate well enough to counter every element which is otherwise imbalanced. Sorry, but that sounds incredibly unrealistic. Every pub player "scouting" and communicating effectively? lol..
I've played pubs (Exclusively) and these servers enough to know how that's just not the case. Again, both due to the sheer logistics of coordinating that many effectively, as well as the variance /unreliability in skill. Hell, those two factors alone make countering tactics in a typical sized pub game difficult to the point where landslide wins are more common place than a balanced round!
No offense, but have you considered that you may not be seeing where the broken, unintended and imbalanced elements occur?
You mean things like how incredibly poorly IPS scale? 6 v 6 oh half the aliens got through a lane. Spawner help comm out with the 2 aliens that got through... 12 v 12 comm dies and ip is gone.
2 ips are literally necessary mid game on large servers whereas only a good hedge on small.
Think part of the problem with scaling is that aliens are more dependant on pres and marines on tres. And tres is effectively slower in big games than pres because of things like medpacks and ips and phase gates.
Effectively 2 ways to have map control as marines. Keep em alive, or get them out and in place faster. Slow down upgrades with additional medpacks or with IP and phase. Otherwise you can't effectively reinforce.
You mean things like how incredibly poorly IPS scale? 6 v 6 oh half the aliens got through a lane. Spawner help comm out with the 2 aliens that got through... 12 v 12 comm dies and ip is gone.
2 ips are literally necessary mid game on large servers whereas only a good hedge on small.
This is why large servers start with 2-3 IPs for marines, depending on player count, and would otherwise be one unintended and imbalanced consequence that Ironhorse is correct about. It's also an area where the CDT could help large games by making this standard rather than relying on server admins to script it.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@Martigen
Fair enough. Some elements still work, I suppose.
I definitely see why some find it fun.. I mean its the same reason why 64 player BF servers are popular... People like the larger scale for intensity as well as to not have as much pressure on their own actions. I can see how different tactics could evolve from these environments... I suppose at the risk of sounding elitist : I just don't see the tactics being very.. tactical. They are just spammy?
A hallway of marines spamming GLs and flames so thick that you are only shooting at their backs doesn't leave much open for evasive movement, accurate lane blocking, baiting, box jumping, circle strafing, and much of the alien movement system. How does one "juke" their skulk movement through a hallway of 15 marines meant for one at a time? There's no room.
Not to mention the other tactical aspects that are lost, like weak sounds of aliens nearby are going to be inaudible in the chaos of a massive hallway spam fight.. as well as map awareness and positioning of your team going out the window because these players enjoy the "epic" nature of crowded environments.
I'd argue whatever tactics that evolve from these large playercount environments are a fraction of what is intended to exist with lower playercounts, in both quality and variation.
But again, I understand why players play on them. (Just hope they realize the performance difference, even if the balance impact isn't felt)
@Martigen
Fair enough. Some elements still work, I suppose.
I definitely see why some find it fun.. I mean its the same reason why 64 player BF servers are popular... People like the larger scale for intensity as well as to not have as much pressure on their own actions. I can see how different tactics could evolve from these environments... I suppose at the risk of sounding elitist : I just don't see the tactics being very.. tactical. They are just spammy?
I don't think you sound elitist, and though it's true things like GL-rushes fail more than they succeed, when they do it's certainly spammy (but glorious ).
And yes changes in tactics I guess are more team-oriented than individual. For example usually the first thing you'll hear the alien comm saying is 'I want a tunnel here, here and here' because there's more gorges, more tunnels, more options. On a smaller server, you're lucky to get more than one. That leads to different alien movement, different responses by marines etc.
Also things like backup tunnels -- two to one hive, allowing aliens greater chance to defend if marines are taking them down. This is what I mean by new tactics arise. You just wouldn't do this on a small server. You can afford to on a large one.
Same with mines, the investment is more risky for the return on a small server. On a large server they're a necessity to defend phases, and work really well in this regard. More marines means you can have more mines, but that's not so much spammy as it is multiple phases can be mined at once to protect them, thereby countering the alien advantage of multiple tunnels etc. This is what I mean by things seem to scale well and naturally balance, even if at first you wouldn't think so.
Maybe some players think the above sounds like hell. I like the variety it brings.
A hallway of marines spamming GLs and flames so thick that you are only shooting at their backs doesn't leave much open for evasive movement, accurate lane blocking, baiting, box jumping, circle strafing, and much of the alien movement system. How does one "juke" their skulk movement through a hallway of 15 marines meant for one at a time? There's no room.
I'm glad you mentioned this, and you're essentially right. For marines you can't go spamming GLs in a tight fight, you'll kill yourself. You need to learn to aim above, use walls to bounce more, switch to pistol if a skulk gets through. Learn how to spread out, including falling back, if you can't flank the enemy.
It's also this, incidentally, that aids the stopping of GL-rushes -- ten skulks charging into marines in a tight space, specially trying to fire a long-rage weapon, is like many bulls in a china shop Plenty of skulks will die, but often more marines die, and the hive is saved. If you have lerks and gas, well, it all scales (but again conversely, it's easier to get killed as a lerk with more nades flying around, and so on). And here we are just talking about one tactic of a rush.
And you still get to enjoy 1-on-1 combat where you can bait, circle strafe etc because not every engagement happens in a group, or in a tight space. Not as often, certainly, but they happen. I'd say most engagements are between a couple of marines and aliens at a time. Scouting, trying to get ninja-phases (or ninja-tunnels -- Landing Pad is a fave on Summit), capping nodes. People spread out on the map for lots of reasons. Circle-strafing is how I manage to get kills despite my 350 ping on Woozas
And there's a real sense of reward if, as a marine, you can empty your LMG and pistol and take out 3-4 skulks in the process. This can happen on small servers, but rarely, because you're usually encountering less people at a time.
I'd argue whatever tactics that evolve from these large playercount environments are a fraction of what is intended to exist with lower playercounts, in both quality and variation.
That's an interesting observation, I haven't considered if there's less tactics overall, so far noticed some adapted ones and many new ones (like some I've mentioned in this and the above posts). As for quality, I think that's the one area where we see things differently
Comments
It's a win or lose hail mary play typically, and it has a lot of different strategies to defend against.
I've also been in a lot more JP rushes that ended with the comm hitting the beacon the moment the hive dies to save all the Jet packs.
commander beacon, some kill/weld and the rest phase through gate immediately
This changes the game, making it more unpredictable and prone to sudden changes in outcome.
Good or bad? Well ... hard to say. It does not seem to be unplayable, even at 42 player servers.
The crucial point here is fragility - a single gorge jumping into a base will probably damage a lot of structures, but before any structure has been killed, marines will have had time to react and defend.
12 gorges ... will wipe the base before the marines have time to react. OTOH, 12 skulks attacking an undefended base will have a good chance of doing the same... so the real problem isn't the bilebomb, it's just plain fragility.
There is no need for further discussion in either of them, as neither threads have been created on the back of a legitimate complaint. It's just some guy getting amusement out of us discussing this as if he were serious.
The concept of dynamic HP for structures was brought up a while ago (i think even before offical release), but it never got any traction, though it seemed to be considered a generally good idea.
They already scale eggs with playercount, why not buildings*.
*With the exception of Extractors. It already takes a while to nom down an extractor, and a painfully long time to weld it.
It would be confusing. Server has X players playing now, so HP is Y, and 6 people just left the server so HP is now Z. Try and keep up with that.
Also dropping a 2nd CC and backup arms/IP should be common practice if you are doing extremely well b/c tres shouldn't be a problem.
My concern there would be if a structure was under attack, gets to like 3% health, team saves it, but did not heal. Suddenly 2 people have left the server and that hp boost drops,
Does the structure die? Only a fraction of a percentage hp left?
I think I don't like the idea of structures gaining and losing hp as the match continues.
If that arms lab is at 3% at 12v12 players, it would still be at 3% at 6v6, only the value would change.
On the same note, it might be beneficial to only have primary structures (CC+Base Power and Hive) scale with players, or at least scale the most. It could even change up some tactics on large servers since it might be easier to take out that arms lab or AA in stead of always zergging the power or hive.
There are more aliens yes, but there are also more marines. So if you can't spare a marine out of 10+ to patrol an area, then it is really your team's fault. I know the argument, hey they are pubs that have a mix of skills, and you shouldn't expect 1-2 marines that will do the right thing and patrol base... That is true, however by that same logic, you shouldn't expect a balanced game given the game was never really meant to be balanced on these said large servers (20+) (hence rushing anything with AoE damage = win on large servers - xeno anyone?).
As to the bile = OP when 6 aliens go gorge and bile rush a base taking it down in 6 seconds... That is the meta for larger servers I am afraid. Why try to fix something that isn't really meant to be in the game. I don't hate large servers, I play on them (just not often), but its a entirely different game, and I don't think vanilla NS2 should try and cater for that. It is easy enough for larger server admins to make / get a mod that would balance it some what (eg. nerf bile damage a little).
edit: tone down my definition of large from 24 to 20.
Similarly, one would think an 18 marine GL-rush would be unstoppable on large servers, but I've seen this fail more times than it succeeds.
That's the thing. Unless you play on large servers regularly, it's hard to get a picture of how well NS2 scales -- and after spending months playing on large servers now it's actually not too bad. That's not to say that it's perfect, but it's very close to the mark. I think that's a testament to UWE's design.
One just needs to remember that more players means both a) small server strats doesn't necessarily work the same way anymore and b) new strategies arise that are only possible with more players. You get a different, but equally challenging, game.
same way upgrades first i don't think is as strong on larger servers. because medpacks can't be used as frequently. dropping armories are probably more economical and phase gate and ips probably do a bit more to reduce the cost of medding.
xeno becomes a bit stronger because you have more targets, and bile becomes stronger because you can afford more gorges.
lerks become riskier and drifter support stronger, because more targets for the same res investment. all things are changed a bit, but overall balance isn't thrown too askew.
Ehh.. I know the individual's impact in larger games is lessened, but the sheer nature of increasing player counts within the same sized environments with the same structure values is going to offer gameplay which is more binary.
By that, I mean gameplay which can end the round without contention / a say from the opposing team, like from 12 players suddenly bile bombing or 12 GL + JP marines. The chair and the hive will both melt.
This is both because of the lack of scaling as well as the increased likelihood of worse coordination due to the logistics and impracticality of coordination with such numbers and such variance in skill.
Basically : Teamwork (the requirement to win in NS2) in larger player count games is much more impacting than typical player counts, probably to the point of breaking things and creating unintended consequences (like melting a chair faster than the average human interaction, let alone the specific programmed time to beacon a team) and therefore an experience that may not be as fun or fair.
So many who post this view actually haven't spent much time, if at all, playing on large servers. So the comments come from a souce of extrapolating your experience of standard server sizes to larger ones, and logically thinking what might happen. And that's fine, I used to think exactly the same.
But actually playing for a few months on large servers, it's everything you haven't thought about with the interaction of many players that makes a difference.
I've already shared how I've seen GL-rushes fail more times than they succeed, as well as how bile rushes fail -- again, scouting is easy with 20 people, and you can intercept rushes before they even hit the base. Do they work sometimes? Sure they do, just as they work sometimes on a small server (six skulks can kill marine base power or obs to prevent response quickly). But not as often as you might think.
You mention JP+GL? What do you think happens when you have four-five gorges healing a hive, multiple fades and lerks and a bunch of skulks in that hive fight? No, the hive does not melt. The gorges alone turn the fight. You'll hear, if you play on these servers, the commander shouting 'Kill the gorges first!'. On a small server, you don't have to worry about this, you can have six players GLing a hive and a lone gorge won't prevent that. This is not true on a large server. And while you have more marines shooting... they're dealing with more aliens killing them.
Just think about that for a moment. That's a completely new result of gameplay, a changing of priorities in a hive assault. How awesome is that for diversity?
Your comments on comm chair? Multiple obs fix that, though that's rarely necessary in my experience, as does having multiple chairs -- you'll see IPs built at more than one hive regularly, taking advantage of having more marines spawning in more than one location. This is costly and hard to defend on small servers, but not so much on large. Wait? Isn't that a massive advantage? Well, you'd think so, but then you've got more aliens attacking two locations now and splitting marine forces... etc.. etc...
What about structure fragility? Don't nodes go down quicker? Yes, they do, thank fruck -- taking way one of the more boring aspects of the game. But they're also recapped quicker, it's easier to defend them with more people buying mines... etc etc.
For everything you think large servers might unbalance, I've seen a counter. This is why I've explained many times that a) small server tactics don't always work the same and b) new tactics arise that only large servers provide. And some of them are brilliant.
It's actually facinating to see how players individually adapt and work as a team when in larger numbers. I guarantee things happen that you haven't thought of or can predict.
This is why it's a little frustrating reading comments about how NS2 doesn't scale well, when they're always from people I don't see every night playing on large servers. Logically, those with the most experience on large servers are more suited to commenting on large server games, yes? Yet, voices like mine with months of experience on large servers are dismissed, you don't agree because you can't see how it can work. And I understand that, I was the same. But once you spent enough time on one, you realise there's a wealth of tactics and strategy -- counter and counter-counter -- that can only occur with more people in the game. And it's a heck of a lot fun.
Is it perfect? No, as I said some changes could make them run smoother (like spawning 3 IPs for marines at start, rather relying on a server script to do this) but as I've also said, it's very close to the mark. Marine/Aliens wins are roughly 50/50. The truth is, just like on smaller servers, the outcome of a game is hevily weighted by the skill and experience of the teams.
Anyway, another wall of text from me. I just would like those who are adamant that NS2 doesn't scale well to consider that maybe it actually does, from someone who has spent months playing on large servers, due to all the things you haven't thought of that you can only understand once you've seen how people and tactics adapt with more players in the game. And that while it's a different NS2 experience, it's one that's just as a valid.
I use words like "may" because I do not like speaking in absolutes, mostly because it sounds preachy and condescending. This doesn't mean that I haven't played an amount of time in large servers that allows me to make an assessment?? Of course I have played in these servers, and of course i have my opinion about them. I can typically experience something that is working incorrectly (Read: broken and/or unintended) due to the higher playercount within the first 2 minutes of a round. It's not hard to spot.. you really don't need to be "playing every night on large servers" to see it.
But this is really besides the point.. you are only comparing elements that scale (players) instead of elements that do not (static cooldown values, structure values and size of environments).. which really do not require anecdotal evidence to see how it could be a problem, anyways.
Also, you are suggesting that these large pub servers are able to coordinate well enough to counter every element which is otherwise imbalanced. Sorry, but that sounds incredibly unrealistic. Every pub player "scouting" and communicating effectively? lol..
I've played pubs (Exclusively) and these servers enough to know how that's just not the case. Again, both due to the sheer logistics of coordinating that many effectively, as well as the variance /unreliability in skill. Hell, those two factors alone make countering tactics in a typical sized pub game difficult to the point where landslide wins are more common place than a balanced round!
No offense, but have you considered that you may not be seeing where the broken, unintended and imbalanced elements occur?
You're right, static values don't scale, but are they a problem or do they play into the solution? As I explained on res nodes, the fact they can fall quickly to both sides would indicate they would need their health buffed on large servers, in order to maintain the original dynamic of the game, correct? Same could be said for Obs etc (so rines have more time to react to an obs getting eaten by a lot of skulks for eg) But as it stands now, this doesn't actually play out as an issue in-game, and in fact if we did buff them we'd change the dynamic of the game as it plays at the moment -- not to say this isn't a bad idea, I'd be curious to see the effect -- but what I'm trying to show is that what you think is an issue based on experience on smaller servers isn't necessarily the case in practice.
If the goal is to have NS2 play on large servers as it plays on small -- then yes, you'd need to do things like scale structure health. But what if the goal isn't have large servers play exactly the same as small ones? The dyanmic of more players with the current balance on strucutres, player health etc leads to a different NS2 experience and different tactics. It actually works better than you think it would. This isn't just my opinion, again if it wasn't fun and engaging, these servers wouldn't have lasted long. Instead, you have to queue to get on them every night.
And yes if you've gotten on large servers and expected the experience of a small one, then I can completely understand your point of view. Maybe the difference is I, and presumably most everyone else joining them, don't expect that.
I agree completely
And yes in some cases more players does counter some of the issues you might otherwise expect from other 'unintended' consequences of large servers. What can I say, proof is in the pudding.
See above
Conversely, if you want some intense hive battles, epic base defenses, more back and forth taking of hives (it's amazing what aliens can do with more tunnels) and the sight of fifteen rines throwing themselves against every combination of alien life form, get on a large server. You can't get this experience on a small one.
You mean things like how incredibly poorly IPS scale? 6 v 6 oh half the aliens got through a lane. Spawner help comm out with the 2 aliens that got through... 12 v 12 comm dies and ip is gone.
2 ips are literally necessary mid game on large servers whereas only a good hedge on small.
Think part of the problem with scaling is that aliens are more dependant on pres and marines on tres. And tres is effectively slower in big games than pres because of things like medpacks and ips and phase gates.
Effectively 2 ways to have map control as marines. Keep em alive, or get them out and in place faster. Slow down upgrades with additional medpacks or with IP and phase. Otherwise you can't effectively reinforce.
Fair enough. Some elements still work, I suppose.
I definitely see why some find it fun.. I mean its the same reason why 64 player BF servers are popular... People like the larger scale for intensity as well as to not have as much pressure on their own actions. I can see how different tactics could evolve from these environments... I suppose at the risk of sounding elitist : I just don't see the tactics being very.. tactical. They are just spammy?
A hallway of marines spamming GLs and flames so thick that you are only shooting at their backs doesn't leave much open for evasive movement, accurate lane blocking, baiting, box jumping, circle strafing, and much of the alien movement system. How does one "juke" their skulk movement through a hallway of 15 marines meant for one at a time? There's no room.
Not to mention the other tactical aspects that are lost, like weak sounds of aliens nearby are going to be inaudible in the chaos of a massive hallway spam fight.. as well as map awareness and positioning of your team going out the window because these players enjoy the "epic" nature of crowded environments.
I'd argue whatever tactics that evolve from these large playercount environments are a fraction of what is intended to exist with lower playercounts, in both quality and variation.
But again, I understand why players play on them. (Just hope they realize the performance difference, even if the balance impact isn't felt)
And yes changes in tactics I guess are more team-oriented than individual. For example usually the first thing you'll hear the alien comm saying is 'I want a tunnel here, here and here' because there's more gorges, more tunnels, more options. On a smaller server, you're lucky to get more than one. That leads to different alien movement, different responses by marines etc.
Also things like backup tunnels -- two to one hive, allowing aliens greater chance to defend if marines are taking them down. This is what I mean by new tactics arise. You just wouldn't do this on a small server. You can afford to on a large one.
Same with mines, the investment is more risky for the return on a small server. On a large server they're a necessity to defend phases, and work really well in this regard. More marines means you can have more mines, but that's not so much spammy as it is multiple phases can be mined at once to protect them, thereby countering the alien advantage of multiple tunnels etc. This is what I mean by things seem to scale well and naturally balance, even if at first you wouldn't think so.
Maybe some players think the above sounds like hell. I like the variety it brings.
I'm glad you mentioned this, and you're essentially right. For marines you can't go spamming GLs in a tight fight, you'll kill yourself. You need to learn to aim above, use walls to bounce more, switch to pistol if a skulk gets through. Learn how to spread out, including falling back, if you can't flank the enemy.
It's also this, incidentally, that aids the stopping of GL-rushes -- ten skulks charging into marines in a tight space, specially trying to fire a long-rage weapon, is like many bulls in a china shop
And you still get to enjoy 1-on-1 combat where you can bait, circle strafe etc because not every engagement happens in a group, or in a tight space. Not as often, certainly, but they happen. I'd say most engagements are between a couple of marines and aliens at a time. Scouting, trying to get ninja-phases (or ninja-tunnels -- Landing Pad is a fave on Summit), capping nodes. People spread out on the map for lots of reasons. Circle-strafing is how I manage to get kills despite my 350 ping on Woozas
And there's a real sense of reward if, as a marine, you can empty your LMG and pistol and take out 3-4 skulks in the process. This can happen on small servers, but rarely, because you're usually encountering less people at a time.
That's an interesting observation, I haven't considered if there's less tactics overall, so far noticed some adapted ones and many new ones (like some I've mentioned in this and the above posts). As for quality, I think that's the one area where we see things differently