RTS-FPS school
UncleCrunch
Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
One of the thing i get sick about the most is the rookie not being "hooked" by the game when it is one of the greatest concept i know. As you know games are dumber each years. The kind that includes strategy are getting the attention of a different kind of players.
-NS1 old farts (:) )
-RTS gamers who want to get some action. And no micro management anymore (predictability).
-FPS gamers who got in because of a friend or just getting another shooter.
The 2 first are somehow more likely to stay longer than the 3rd.
The third kind will have many issues with the learning curve. The 1st and 2nd will get bored as no new map comes out and / or have a rookie vs stacking problem, some are just stubborn, etc. pick one.
I won't argue on what make them leave fast. Most of the issue i see upon the rookies not getting better are: Knowledge of the game, community and language (the barrier).
Usually they hear yelling and i can understand it's not so appealing.
Flag
What about displaying a flag (like some servers do) but not only for nationality but also for spoken language. One option in the panel to signal which language are spoken and the flags get in the scoreboard. Usually (after high school) ppl speak (more or less) 2 languages, maybe more for some.
Then comes the schools
It is clear that tutorials aren't the first thing new players open and watch. Rookies need ppl to answer the questions and or help training. Especially commander. We see more and more troll commanders these days.
What about recycling the gather system into a school system ?
Creating "class rooms" with a preferred language would probably help. I do not think that would need much work to develop. Any map can do the trick. When launching the session; a server can be chosen the same way.
That would require some NS2 teacher (or training officer) willing to give some advice. Even if some leave it wouldn't be because they don't get a single '****' about the game.
Pls don't even talk about badges right now... first things first isn't it?
Anyone interested ?
Comments
What I think would really come in handy is just a better, longer, more in-depth tutorial. One that encompasses not only the basic mechanics, but also some of the culture of the game (ie mics are preferred, but not required, LISTEN to your commander), as well as more information on fades, onos, jetpacks, etc. Perhaps a sort of training course?
The biggest obstacle I can see to either idea is that people will either not know about it, or not care about it. It would need to be a part of an official implementation (what rookie is going to know how to subscribe on the workshop, activate a mod, then figure out how to run it!)
cool quote, but I can't see any reason why it would be true.
My idea: make NS2 unlock in Combat standalone. 'You earned 1000 XP, you may now buy NS2 for only $20'
Dragon is probably talking about high level execution of knowledge on a consistent basis. That shit can only be practiced to an intuition because there are way too many variables than possible to teach.
Sure, fully agree. The problem we face is that execution without knowledge makes for a shitty experience.
Edit: that's weird, while writing this your quote isnt the same anymore as the post i see above. You nasty editor you.
It realy makes me angry when we get the server going (3-4 ppl top, pregame 30 minutes to get it full) and i ask "If any one have any question about the game, now is a good time to ask". No questions asked. And then when normal game start i see 4 rookies watching drifter building an RT, or better biting it...then i get angry. I realy dont see newbies willing to learn.
Good example:
http://www.reddit.com/r/ns2/comments/22w461/request_make_a_drinking_game_for_a_newbie/
"My roommates and I are going to be playing this game for the first time tonight, and we're going to go into it completely blind (they know as much as I do)."
Maybe tutorials should be mandatory before player can connect to a server. Or server browser should be filtered to rookie friendly from start?
Rookies are joining server that are full and thay are usualy the VET servers like YO, HBZ etc. (not rookie friendly).
But i dont blame rookies how many of you play tutorial in a new game if its not mandatory? skip skip skip.
this game needs loading screen hints&tips.
It had... and they were really not useful.
If the tips were along the lines of things like "hold E to build structures" then I can understand them being crap. Tips should be for nuances in the gameplay you dont get from a tutorial or looking at the control options.
Drawing from the community for tips could a) get around this issue, and b) be a nice chance for Ns2 to show off its great community, just imagine in the loading screen stuff like this coming up,
"When marines get shotguns, lerks should try to stay out of range and use spikes to reduce marines armour for your teammates to finish off" - MeatMachine
"The Marine comm can use arcs to take out inaccessible alien structures- do your best to defend the arcs so they can do their job!" - Modest Mouse
"Mines can be set off by other mines explosions, space them out to get more bang for your buck" - F0rdPerfect
"Power nodes cannot be destroyed while still blueprints, and take longer to build after they have been broken. Only build what you need to!" - IronHorse
Just a little pet idea of mine :P
NEVER forget to bring your towel.
The loading screen hints we had (still have? you probably need all those helper thingies turned on) were more of the "press e to build structures" sort.
This'd give even our seasoned players something to do during the ~1min load times that people seem to hate so much :P
there are people lured in by the eye candy of awesome models etc. in a marine vs alien setting and/or the promising potential of having a player-based command structure and assymetric gampeplay. and some people will just give it a try because they got it for like a dollar with the humble bundle. and some got it even for free from a friend (gift copies for pre-orderers). so some people will not be dedicated simply because the game might not be what they like to play in the long run e.g. casual players.
but no matter what group, you cannot blame them for not watching tutorials:
playing a game is usually the most straightforward approach to figure out what gameplay is like (in most cases at least, i guess this doesn't apply for all facetes of ns2). maybe they don't want to be bothered investing many hours into learning only to figure out that they cannot stand the game in actual matches for reasons not showing up during tutorials (can be as simple as not having decent fps). instead, they want to dive right in to get a firsthand impression and either keep playing (eventually becoming more willing to invest time into learning) or ditch it.
to sum it up:
first, the game has to prove them that it's worth investing "boring" learning time by providing them some hours of fun.
so yea, giving them some ingame advice one way or the other might be the only way to reach them. as for people not asking questions: it seems a lot of players are simply shy or don't want others to know that they are newbies (other communites can be very hostile), not noticing that the green nickname will give it away.
i'm with meat machine on this, loading screen tips are a good way to keep people occupied especially since the first map-loading can take quite a while.
further suggestion:
how about a "press space to view the next tip" during loading? it should not be that hard to implement because the loading is apparently nicely done without freezing or hitching and it would keep people entertained while loading and allow them to browse through useful information at their own pace. since they can't do much else during loading i imagine they will look at it without feeling forced to do so. <- this is already done
i'm all in favor of tips that are not covered by natural gameplay (as in you can easily overlook it even after playing a few matches):
"While respawning as alien, leftclick on the map to chose a location."
This is a good school when no "stuff" comes in the way. That would be ideal. But we know since NS1 that competitive play feeds on public server. If no new players come to fill the ranks it slowly decay.
-1 because top teams get bored to play the same teams over and over on the same set of maps. Line ups come and go but the NS2 world is small.
-2 pub'ers get discouraged as they see a huge gap from their level and the 'Pros'. Usually they just don't realize they just have to do it right and all these Comps can die too.
-3 They usually see no help coming.
ENSL on NS1 at the top of NS3 audience was ok on D1 and D2(somehow). D3 was already a fun thing to watch (and i'm staying respectful).
Q F T
One thing i forgot is having a "HLTV" like player so ppl can get a better view on things. Teachers can comment what and why things are done. HLTV like is better as it is not stuck with one player and is somehow saving bandwith (data vs Video like Twitch). Also saving slot on servers.
So it would be 2 kinds of session.
-Watching a game and having a comment provided by experienced players
-Actual session to get the feeling (and set up commander key for some).
We can use the experience stuff too.
If you follow a course to the end the teachers gives a special "bonus" that allow the trainee to get experience faster.
Like the commander badge system. 20 hours of loosing or 10hours winning.
Ex:
In a HLTV comment session : A trainee gets a 1.25 ratio on any experience gained for 10 hours playing NS2.
In a game session with a teacher : A trainee gets a 1.50 ratio on any experience gained for 10 hours playing NS2.
Don't underestimate the power of farming...
This goes a little far away for the original thing as it require a complete new system but hey the actual gather system is just a desert.
I disagree that sound is needed for anyone to pay attention to free game knowledge.
You seem to be saying it's not a perfect system, therefore it shouldn't be considered or implemented. That's not really a reason.
Well, got to admit, not so noob cause I've start at the steam release but I'm still far from an experienced player, (haven't played so much).
But when I'm coming on this forum I see most of member are some old players, coming for a great part from NS1.
Some player how got use of metagame of natural selection, as the author said, players how understand a lot of the strat needed by the blend between an fps and an rts.
But I got to said something, this forum is a discussion between a majority of player how have forgot what is it to start on this great but really hard to understand game.
When I read some of you writing things like "Problem with rookies is that thay dont want to learn.", or topic like this one :
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/133962/you-know-your-team-mate-is-bad-when/p1
We don't really feel welcome...
If we got a "gap" on knowledge and skill, we got a gap on how we see the game, how wasn't lose on 10 first try of a map?
Who was able to understand where the commander want us to go before bind a mouse key for the minimap and learn that we got to watch it all the time we're not fighting?
Who know were build a smart def on the map before some guy learn it?
Who know that staying 10 min in a room as an eco skulk just to scout ennemis location can be smart?
I've start by watch as tutorial as I can (not a lot at NS2 release), firstly the spec team was my main team...
Even by taking a lot of time before a first try I think I was totally useless, unable to go fast were the commander ask, unable to know what it could be smart to do at round start. Try to follow a guy how seems to know what to do, not always the good guy...
In all the game I've done, a lot was a rage of commander or experienced player bashing noob cause they are too bad, understanding nothing, not hearding comm order....
Rarely we got on a "rookie friendly" server an experienced players how try to manage a teamwork "follow me, let's try to block them here, packed rush to x location", haven't seen a lot of this "teacher" but each time I've seen and follow one I understand more aspect of the game.
In the same aspect, I've seen more commander how just use mic when it's too late, not understanding that a new player can't travel through the whole map in 10s, commander how don't take the time to anticipate and give early order, telling wich room we got to defend at round start.
Sometime got a commander calling player by their name, putting some mark on the map when they ask for something, and got in mind that they got to go slowly for new players, starting to give some order at start ("2 guy here, 3 here, one of you stay to build...").
I suppose you know with who I've learn more?
A last thing, I've seen here a lot of time that "rookie friendly" server arn't "rookie only", I'm aggree with that cause this kind of server need some experienced player who really want to teach the game to new players.
Sadly we got in more case some "skilled" players how are here to stomp some newbie (perhaps cause they got some trouble in other server?
When you got a 5-10 k/d ratio in a "rookie friendly" server, try to understand that if your not always giving some advice, you're in a wrong place, if you start to be bored by "noob unablility", leave it immediatly...
All this to say that the idea of the autor is needed and for me it's the goal of "rookie friendly server".
But in fact, rookie friendly are not really often a learning room.
I can understand that try to learn some tips to new players and don't see half of them following this advice can be dissapointing.
But I got to say, that some of them heard you, try to do and will later got the idea at the good time.
If some tutorial can give some move/aiming/eco advice, the organisation of a round: what and when do this or that only can be learing in game, by experience and with some advice, and more at start of the round.
This organisation of a round is the thing how is natural for experienced player but hard to acquire for new player.
Harder when you got a 10k/d ratio in the other team who kill you everytime you start to be usefull or a troll commander in your side or in the other.
Impossible when your commander give-up and recycle after 10 min.
For this learning, the work of experienced player, coaching new players is priceless and needed, but yep need a lot of patience and pedagogy.
If you want to see more pub players taking some experience, the idea of the autor isn't bad and useless, perhaps learn how understand and coach new player is the other level in the progression of ns2 players.
PS: Sorry for the poor english skill, hope it's understandable, If some of the fact I've illustrated can be aggressive, that's not the case nor generality, I understand most of your feeling, but I just feel like a lot of you have forgot how complex ns2 look like when you start...
If you had a bike (or still do) you probably got on the bike before reading any manual on bikes. There are things that are far away from reading. Some other things are closer.
I do believe that SSDs + gamer profile, won't help provide some solid understanding of the game. Not only the mechanics like "build here", but also a feeling of the game like "don't touch this, we're on ninja mission". Still, even with HDD it's still fast.
Plus "tips" are tips, it's not a real course. You can bring a player faster to a decent level in 1~2 hours than having him (her) read the tips (which are cycling a lot btw) for days...
It's not the same to teach somebody to "behave" and to let him learn from tips with a "try / fail / retry x times / success" path. I'm not saying tips are useless but not as efficient as a real course or comment on a game.
Notes on SSD:
here in FR (2013) / Use Chrome to traduce it if you haven't learn the beautiful language of the French bas***d i am (And... no mayonnaise on french fries).
Short story : For now the only advantage of HDD are the storage capacity. But for how long ?
If NS2 have 2 or 3 more years...
@Greyman: You are talking about the "buddy concept". All is done on the field. It's not bad but completely random as you have to get ppl willing to help. Besides it can be disturbing other players to hear a constant chat. But it is what and how it was done so far (teaching).
There will always be jerks to mess around. It's no reason to put them all in the same bag. Greyman is one example of the contrary (right path of learning).
I believe there are many more on the field waiting to get some help. First obstacle : language.
We need teachers for every major language in NS2 (not in the world). A lot of northern countries but not only. UK+USA aren't the dominant nationality on NS2 i believe. You my friend, are one "polska" example of it. My NS2 is rich! isn't it?
Also, your server is quite clear about that. We even had one Chinese if i remember correctly. That is something.