Because you lose when you lose your only cc....the amt of games lost/won by just rushing the marine cc(even though they own the entire map) is reason enough to have a second cc..
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
I remember when the change for 1cc proto came and there were some threads about how OP this was, and how unfair it was for aliens to fight Marines that get all tech on 1 cc. Well the alien side game play adapted to the 1cc all tech. What we didn't realize was how much more horrible the end game could be, marine turtles with 1cc all tech means a long turtle was possible as marines might be on A3/W3 with Exos. True, they might only have 1 RT, but the time taken to grind down a good marine team turtling could be time better spent playing a new game.
Contaminate was added to counter the turtle, as it meant you could echo in whips to end the game, however 2-3 arcs deployed in base basically neutered that tactic, that along with a FT will make contaminate not worth using.
The argument for more epic come backs being a possibility just didn't eventuate. The reason why the Marine team has been locked to 1 cc and no map control is because aliens played better, and having all tech in the marine side isn't really going to get them to come back (it is possible, but just not really going to happen in a pub, it would require supreme coordination, and if the marines were coordinated in the first place, they wouldn't be locked to 1 cc with no map control). In PUGs and comp, it would be rare to get into this sort of situation any way as comp. players and PUGs know when a game is lost and would concede.
So, I agree with @IronHorse, 2nd cc should be more than just a place holder against sneaky hive drops. It should be required for A3/W3 (15 res isn't a big res sink), as to the 2cc proto argument, I haven't really thought it through, but I think 1 cc proto is ok. JP on 1 cc is acceptable, if it isn't too much trouble, may be make a 1cc JP weaker (less fuel), and 2 cc = JP now (or slightly buffed in terms of fuel or fuel regen) to give an incentive to take and hold a 2nd cc.
PS. I only play in pubs, so can't really vouch for the play in Comps (though I watch alot of comp games via RedDog)
Point of second com: protect against rushes. Most of the time protection against rushes is not necessary if you have a brain or eyes though. It's certainly one of the last things I do as a marine com. Usually by the time I am interested in getting a second chair up we've more or less won the game and it's one of those "omg what do I spend all this reZ on/I can't build arcs fast enough to use all the reZ coming in" moments.
That, or we've already lost the game and don't really need a second chair ;-) .
Oh, the novelty value of dragging on the game when the teams are stacked by not making phasegates and making a second chair+IP instead is also amusing occasionally.
BTW I miss jetpacks tied to 2nd chair, and I don't think people used to surrender when they saw an onos without jetpacks.
Last game I played we had one CC, every upgrade as marines including exos and a bile rush ended it in 20 seconds. I think CCx2 might have helped heehee.
I thought hives are tied into upgrades because they are an investment. Take ages to grow, spawn eggs free cost 40 res... While a CC costs 15 and takes about 20 secs to build solo.
If CC's became more important, will we have to spend longer sitting around building them? I'd rather not. Would they cost more?
U need to build IP next to com in order to use it as spawn ,so it is 40 res, and ip is not realy fast building structure to, so u get more bang for your res with hive, and u need to, but not at price that competition needs to be almost useless.
As i know now aliens have something like 10% more wins than marines, so this is not str8 buff,like buff in dmg or hp, it is strategic tweak!
@elodea u cant ask from mans to think same as u ,that is not free will, or free thinking overall. Diferent opinions have made freedom, single opinions have made dictatorships in history.
@elodea u cant ask from mans to think same as u ,that is not free will, or free thinking overall. Diferent opinions have made freedom, single opinions have made dictatorships in history.
Thats the exact opposite of what i did and said. I didn't ask you to think the same as me, only that you think through your ideas enough to the point where you can offer concrete examples of gameplay change you are looking for. If you want 2nd cc to be less useless, fine. I, and everyone else, want to hear your supporting reasons however.
It's all very well to say symmetry is missing. It's entirely another thing to say cc should be doing x, y and z specifically and this is why it is needed. I've heard everything Ironhorse has to regurgitate on the issue, and personally am much more interested in the opinion of someone like yourself who is new to the game.
I havn't mandated that you hold the same opinion as me, so please don't give me the freedom speech. Not really sure where you got that idea from.
Wrong. It's actually one of the fastest structures, thanks to it's low HP.
Also, I don't want to be that guy, but your posts are horrible to fight through. Could you at least use full words instead of abbreviations, please? I'm not asking for Oxford English here, but a bit of effort.
It is not mine native, and i use tablet,so it is best u can get,read it if u can,if not ignore posts.
Also ford, can u mesure how long it take take for solo marine to builds com+ip, and how much time for gorge adrenaline hive, and than we can talk what u get for 40 res and time needed.
If get /want strategically important spot at early game u have right to defend it and hold it with your trupes!
Alien have more mobility early game, and option to spawn there,marines dont have this!
I always disliked the use of 2nd CCs so I am in the disagree corner. (minus beacon protection etc)
I prefer to put a phasegate in a chokepoint, NOT a techpoint. Techpoints are open, wide and depending on harsh to hold. Chokepoints when done well are closeby techpoints, provide long hallways for bullet rains and allow beacons to the techpoint when power dies off.
Losing the techpoint is of lower concern when you hold the chokepoint as you can at least prevent the aliens from having it.
On many maps you have 5 techpoint spots. Try to hold 3 with PGs and you are already at your PG optimum, making it a poor choice to make a 4th forward gate. (sure, you can sell one, but as you didnt build a PG network on chokepoints, the walk back will be long if needed).
The main issue people have with 1CC is the turtle. Even with less upgrades (when tied to a 2nd cc) this happened, although a bit less long. Linking upgrades again to a mandatory 2nd CC for turtle sake is a poor band aid also.
Aliens have loads and loads of ways to break turtles, its just to many have not a clue how to use them.
I doubt you will ever find a real solution to this problem. But lets not remove a band aid for one to create another wound to band aid over, please.
That is hell of a answer, but we talking about early game, not mid/late. In mid/late, u will use PGs,jets for map movement anyway,not put your hopes in spawn points.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2014
@elodea
You're right, it has been discussed before... and the only argument ever given was that cop out answer of "Asymmetry".
So I don't blame you for not wanting to engage in an actual discussion on the matter, given the lack of an actual argument available.
We do not have to have the discussion, but out of curiosity was it you who proposed said change? I only ask given your passion for advocating for it.
@dragonmith
No that is not the justification for it, fyi.
Everything grows slowly because the alien team is more autonomous/separated and not every player contributes to building and expanding like marines do.
So with potentially only 1 player directly contributing to expanding, aliens needed to naturally grow without manually being built (albeit much much slower, in order to incentivize coordination)
You can build a hive really fast with multiple gorges, a drifter, enzyme and a shift.. but these all come at costs (tres and less offensive players on the field)
@DC_Darkling
Thanks for engaging in a discussion on the matter, I appreciate it
The main issue people have with 1CC is the turtle. Even with less upgrades (when tied to a 2nd cc) this happened, although a bit less long. Linking upgrades again to a mandatory 2nd CC for turtle sake is a poor band aid also. Aliens have loads and loads of ways to break turtles, its just to many have not a clue how to use them.
I disagree, there are multiple points brought up in here and other places besides turtling.
Other downsides include :
The linear progression/ artificial clock,
Which removes the "epic" back and forth pub games and
Creates a "first to past the post" gameplay that determines the winner sooner ("A3/W3/JP? ..GG.")
Which creates a greater percentage of games ending in concede due to either demoralization /difficulty required in removing the enemy's tech, or due to A3,W3 Exos turtling.
The removal of additional tactics such as denying them tech when you could not deny them RTs
Lesser chance of comebacks. (this part is entirely debatable; but when your tech upgrades are tied to easier to access locations,[not in a fortified base] you have a higher chance of being able to tech snipe and unseat the enemy, imo)
As elodea even pointed out, it is incredibly unintuitive that Tech Points provide Tech for aliens but... do not.. for marines?
CCs only being useful for one purpose that rarely is ever used anyways (dualies) violates a principle in this game's design goals regarding obsolescence - the reason why the OP made this post.
Also, Turtles were far less viable and frequent when upgrades were tied to CCs - and now with the much more powerful endgame alien tech I feel turtles would be almost non existent if A3 and W3 were tied to 2nd CC. (we can discuss Exos after they are made viable again :-P)
Even during reinforced internal testing (and a few builds after it went live) contamination had no hitbox and was therefore invincible AND whips were not disabled by flamethrowers... yet turtles occurred in our playtests more often than they didn't.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Well I will not say a chokepoint is always better, but often!
- I never have seen a problem with having x upgrade around x minute. (fades pop up around a certain time also for example).
- Problem with 'lost for sure' turtles is that the onos isnt the terror it was in ns1. Linking more power to hives will not work either due to 3 tech maps like veil.
- Aliens can sort of deny tech by killing the structures involved, which would need to be rebuild.
- IF aliens can not bite res on a structural basis then they are getting outplayed and deserve to lose that match. If you kill of res, you delay tech even more as well as limit pres income for marines. A 1cc is nothing, even with w3/a3 if marines are only carying riffle, and a bunch of oni with lerk and gorges are pounding on your door.
- Comebacks should never be tied to something like losing w3/a3 permanent. The temp lose is a opening on itself. Fun combacks, in my opinion.. granted, are by using different tech. A example.. rines get crushed by illusions, scans dont do it. Marines lose ground etc. Now when marines, for example, techup armor to survive the ambushes and by the time fades pop can 'switch it around' I could call that a comeback. It can work, it can also crush them by lack of weapon ups. In other words.. comeback by diversity, yes please. Combacks by 'hah I killed your tech' can be somewhat unrewarding.
Different compared to a hive as that grants so much. But I never had trouble with that, it 'feels' more right.
Yes I will accept much of the above is not fact but opinion.
I can see the point of tech points not granting tech. I always felt the implementation of cc/hive in ns2 was lacking with the techpoint system but hey... different topic.
@elodea
You're right, it has been discussed before... and the only argument ever given was that cop out answer of "Asymmetry".
So I don't blame you for not wanting to engage in an actual discussion on the matter, given the lack of an actual argument available.
We do not have to have the discussion, but out of curiosity was it you who proposed said change? I only ask given your passion for advocating for it.
Here we go yet again...
Stop being so dense ironhorse. The only passionate advocating (if any) has been coming from you. I've already posted twice that I deliberately held back from 'crusading' this topic with my own opinions, but was instead trying to stay focused on what the OP's actual concerns were.
As for past discussions, i'm sure as moderator you're capable of doing a forum search. There was alot of reasoning from many people beyond just simply 'assymetry'. Kinda hilarious since most of it happened in a thread you created yourself. Interesting read for anyone who is pondering the general tech point design.
It's simply amazing how you still don't seem to understand that assymetry is used as an umbrella term for the mechanical interactions that happen under that kind of design. Keep on ranting about it being used as some 'novelty excuse'. You'll go far. Almost like ignorance by choice. Almost.. *snip* This is not an imageboard
---
OT: OP wants to be able to choose which IP to spawn from, great stuff, agreed. Any more ideas @orbitalshape?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2014
@elodea
I am not attempting to discuss this with you.
You've already said you don't wish to, and i already told you i get why and won't engage in it with you.
I did ask you a question though that you didn't answer.. interestingly.
My forum searching yielded nothing but my own topic - Which if you read it, I clearly stated again and again was not for discussing the topic, so it serves as a poor reference. You missed the point of that thread, entirely, I guess. (which is actually spelled out in there eventually. hint: Bacillus got it on the first page)
Feel free to link an actual argument regarding "mechanical interactions" next time instead of a buzzword if you feel so inclined to participate... else don't bother, dc_darkling is capable providing an argument and he is much more pleasant.
Well as most/some say yes to pick spawn IP.
Some bring alarm, on marine turtles. So one thing must be decided?
Do we need beter marine turtle or no?
If yes,i was thinking about
(This will be sounding crazy and im not even sure, but that is why forums are for,for opinions)
Hand in Repair, if u have building with hand in base,that repair just armor ,marine and building in small area, but can have it if u have second com?
To crazy to wrap a head,any1 ?
Keep in mind that repair rate and res price may tweaked,so UP/OP is not question.
Still faster repair rate than macs!
Question,do we need for marines to turtle?
It used to be that you needed 2nd seat to get proto lab. I have no idea why they changed that.
Some maps (well, Veil mostly) only have 4 tech points. So you wouldn't be able to see lategame marine tech on those maps vs. lategame alien tech.
Another reasoning was that it would be more fun for field players if they had access to (almost) all the tech on 1 CC. Games would often end before the lategame stuff really had a chance to hit the field. And part of the asymmetry of the game was supposed to be that tech points mattered to aliens for tech progression but not so much to marines, who should be more reliant on holding RT territory in general.
That's why you were supposed to get 2nd tp [i}then[/i] nano. Of course if you could get both, why not?
I still preferred 2nd seat for proto, but I understand comp games tend to be shorter than pubs.
Aliens have loads and loads of ways to break turtles, its just to many have not a clue how to use them.
It's more that it takes aliens ages to research all the tech that they need to break a turtle when they have otherwise already won the game.
That is mostly due to the high tRes cost on alien tech overall and the time and cost of lifeform upgrades (compared to just getting the individual upgrades that you need for your current situation). Even if you own the entire map with 7+ RTs, you still need to dish out 40 tRes for each new Hive, then 50 tRes for the Biomass upgrades in that Hive, then 70 tRes to get the Veil/Spur/Shell to maximum for that Hive. Then usually 35 tRes for each lifeform upgrade, which also takes 2:30 minutes to complete.
In the meanwhile does the rest of your alien team usually attempt to break the turtle before they have all the necessary upgrades and risks to lose some of the higher lifeforms due to that.
If I sum things up, then aliens need to invest at a bare minimum 645 tRes to get all their upgrades on 9 Biomass. Not even considering spare support chambers, Harvesters and Drifters that need to be dropped and probably replaced over the course of a match.
Compare that to marines who only need to invest 455 tRes (and this includes luxury like 2 PGs, a second IP and an ARC Factory) to unlock all their tech.
Now call me insane, but I remember that marines were supposed to be the team that depends more on tRes while aliens should be relying more on pRes. Granted, I did not include medpack and ammo cost for marines. But I doubt that it accounts for a difference of over 200 tRes over the course of a match. And aliens will probably use some Drifter abilities too.
Sure, this excludes the more expensive Extractors compared to aliens and the general idea that aliens should keep biting them down. But hell, if things go well for marines, it takes them way less time to get all the lategame tech that they need to end alien turtles, compared to how long it takes the alien team.
In the beta we could have a second com if there was a second chair, and building places came out of this Pres and not Tres. I really enjoyed duel commanding and while I was usually the second com, I was normally tasked with one part or the map while the main com was tasked with the rest. For example, I remember an awesome game on summit and I was second com and was using my res to hold down flight control and comp lab when needed, using my res to drop turrets, making macs and such and when I could drop some weapons. I'd also get out when needed. Meanwhile the main commander and the majority of the marines where focused on holding/retaking data and trying to push X roads. Was a really long game, around an hour and 20 mins. We ended up losing a big push on xroads which lead to comp lab being seized which cut me off, I held out for a while, while getting plenty of reinforcements but after a while and the amount of res they where getting I ran out of res. I swapped command with another second com who buggered up a defence and we lost Flight, which was a slow but surely end to our demise. One of my favourite games I had, and really helped me learn how to command without the pressure of leading the team properly. Should be brought back as mod, but not an official update, as it would be nice to have the option.
If I sum things up, then aliens need to invest at a bare minimum 645 tRes to get all their upgrades on 9 Biomass. Not even considering spare support chambers, Harvesters and Drifters that need to be dropped and probably replaced over the course of a match.
Compare that to marines who only need to invest 455 tRes (and this includes luxury like 2 PGs, a second IP and an ARC Factory) to unlock all their tech.
Now call me insane, but I remember that marines were supposed to be the team that depends more on tRes while aliens should be relying more on pRes. Granted, I did not include medpack and ammo cost for marines. But I doubt that it accounts for a difference of over 200 tRes over the course of a match. And aliens will probably use some Drifter abilities too.
Well yes usefull marine upgrades take less time and res to get. But that is not cuz they are easy to get , it is cuz they have lesser amount of usefull upgrades, i mean not all are very usefull. All i think ,it will be good it to tweak some unlocks and tie them to second com , like welder exos, or railgun wall penetration (superefective's idea btw).
Back on topic, in pub games, a 2nd (or 3rd) CC also help to confuse / split the aliens concentration - 2 aliens attacking one CC and 2 attacking another is not usually as effective as 4 attacking at once to force a beacon / panic / whatever.
Every second the aliens debate which CC to bile rush is another second they aren't doing just that.
Comments
Contaminate was added to counter the turtle, as it meant you could echo in whips to end the game, however 2-3 arcs deployed in base basically neutered that tactic, that along with a FT will make contaminate not worth using.
The argument for more epic come backs being a possibility just didn't eventuate. The reason why the Marine team has been locked to 1 cc and no map control is because aliens played better, and having all tech in the marine side isn't really going to get them to come back (it is possible, but just not really going to happen in a pub, it would require supreme coordination, and if the marines were coordinated in the first place, they wouldn't be locked to 1 cc with no map control). In PUGs and comp, it would be rare to get into this sort of situation any way as comp. players and PUGs know when a game is lost and would concede.
So, I agree with @IronHorse, 2nd cc should be more than just a place holder against sneaky hive drops. It should be required for A3/W3 (15 res isn't a big res sink), as to the 2cc proto argument, I haven't really thought it through, but I think 1 cc proto is ok. JP on 1 cc is acceptable, if it isn't too much trouble, may be make a 1cc JP weaker (less fuel), and 2 cc = JP now (or slightly buffed in terms of fuel or fuel regen) to give an incentive to take and hold a 2nd cc.
PS. I only play in pubs, so can't really vouch for the play in Comps (though I watch alot of comp games via RedDog)
That, or we've already lost the game and don't really need a second chair ;-) .
Oh, the novelty value of dragging on the game when the teams are stacked by not making phasegates and making a second chair+IP instead is also amusing occasionally.
BTW I miss jetpacks tied to 2nd chair, and I don't think people used to surrender when they saw an onos without jetpacks.
U need to build IP next to com in order to use it as spawn ,so it is 40 res, and ip is not realy fast building structure to, so u get more bang for your res with hive, and u need to, but not at price that competition needs to be almost useless.
As i know now aliens have something like 10% more wins than marines, so this is not str8 buff,like buff in dmg or hp, it is strategic tweak!
@elodea u cant ask from mans to think same as u ,that is not free will, or free thinking overall. Diferent opinions have made freedom, single opinions have made dictatorships in history.
It's all very well to say symmetry is missing. It's entirely another thing to say cc should be doing x, y and z specifically and this is why it is needed. I've heard everything Ironhorse has to regurgitate on the issue, and personally am much more interested in the opinion of someone like yourself who is new to the game.
I havn't mandated that you hold the same opinion as me, so please don't give me the freedom speech. Not really sure where you got that idea from.
Wrong. It's actually one of the fastest structures, thanks to it's low HP.
Also, I don't want to be that guy, but your posts are horrible to fight through. Could you at least use full words instead of abbreviations, please? I'm not asking for Oxford English here, but a bit of effort.
Also ford, can u mesure how long it take take for solo marine to builds com+ip, and how much time for gorge adrenaline hive, and than we can talk what u get for 40 res and time needed.
@elodea Why,u ask?
If get /want strategically important spot at early game u have right to defend it and hold it with your trupes!
Alien have more mobility early game, and option to spawn there,marines dont have this!
I always disliked the use of 2nd CCs so I am in the disagree corner. (minus beacon protection etc)
I prefer to put a phasegate in a chokepoint, NOT a techpoint. Techpoints are open, wide and depending on harsh to hold. Chokepoints when done well are closeby techpoints, provide long hallways for bullet rains and allow beacons to the techpoint when power dies off.
Losing the techpoint is of lower concern when you hold the chokepoint as you can at least prevent the aliens from having it.
On many maps you have 5 techpoint spots. Try to hold 3 with PGs and you are already at your PG optimum, making it a poor choice to make a 4th forward gate. (sure, you can sell one, but as you didnt build a PG network on chokepoints, the walk back will be long if needed).
The main issue people have with 1CC is the turtle. Even with less upgrades (when tied to a 2nd cc) this happened, although a bit less long. Linking upgrades again to a mandatory 2nd CC for turtle sake is a poor band aid also.
Aliens have loads and loads of ways to break turtles, its just to many have not a clue how to use them.
I doubt you will ever find a real solution to this problem. But lets not remove a band aid for one to create another wound to band aid over, please.
You're right, it has been discussed before... and the only argument ever given was that cop out answer of "Asymmetry".
So I don't blame you for not wanting to engage in an actual discussion on the matter, given the lack of an actual argument available.
We do not have to have the discussion, but out of curiosity was it you who proposed said change? I only ask given your passion for advocating for it.
@dragonmith
No that is not the justification for it, fyi.
Everything grows slowly because the alien team is more autonomous/separated and not every player contributes to building and expanding like marines do.
So with potentially only 1 player directly contributing to expanding, aliens needed to naturally grow without manually being built (albeit much much slower, in order to incentivize coordination)
You can build a hive really fast with multiple gorges, a drifter, enzyme and a shift.. but these all come at costs (tres and less offensive players on the field)
@DC_Darkling
Thanks for engaging in a discussion on the matter, I appreciate it
I disagree, there are multiple points brought up in here and other places besides turtling.
Other downsides include :
Also, Turtles were far less viable and frequent when upgrades were tied to CCs - and now with the much more powerful endgame alien tech I feel turtles would be almost non existent if A3 and W3 were tied to 2nd CC. (we can discuss Exos after they are made viable again :-P)
Even during reinforced internal testing (and a few builds after it went live) contamination had no hitbox and was therefore invincible AND whips were not disabled by flamethrowers... yet turtles occurred in our playtests more often than they didn't.
- I never have seen a problem with having x upgrade around x minute. (fades pop up around a certain time also for example).
- Problem with 'lost for sure' turtles is that the onos isnt the terror it was in ns1. Linking more power to hives will not work either due to 3 tech maps like veil.
- Aliens can sort of deny tech by killing the structures involved, which would need to be rebuild.
- IF aliens can not bite res on a structural basis then they are getting outplayed and deserve to lose that match. If you kill of res, you delay tech even more as well as limit pres income for marines. A 1cc is nothing, even with w3/a3 if marines are only carying riffle, and a bunch of oni with lerk and gorges are pounding on your door.
- Comebacks should never be tied to something like losing w3/a3 permanent. The temp lose is a opening on itself. Fun combacks, in my opinion.. granted, are by using different tech. A example.. rines get crushed by illusions, scans dont do it. Marines lose ground etc. Now when marines, for example, techup armor to survive the ambushes and by the time fades pop can 'switch it around' I could call that a comeback. It can work, it can also crush them by lack of weapon ups. In other words.. comeback by diversity, yes please. Combacks by 'hah I killed your tech' can be somewhat unrewarding.
Different compared to a hive as that grants so much. But I never had trouble with that, it 'feels' more right.
Yes I will accept much of the above is not fact but opinion.
I can see the point of tech points not granting tech. I always felt the implementation of cc/hive in ns2 was lacking with the techpoint system but hey... different topic.
Stop being so dense ironhorse. The only passionate advocating (if any) has been coming from you. I've already posted twice that I deliberately held back from 'crusading' this topic with my own opinions, but was instead trying to stay focused on what the OP's actual concerns were.
As for past discussions, i'm sure as moderator you're capable of doing a forum search. There was alot of reasoning from many people beyond just simply 'assymetry'. Kinda hilarious since most of it happened in a thread you created yourself. Interesting read for anyone who is pondering the general tech point design.
It's simply amazing how you still don't seem to understand that assymetry is used as an umbrella term for the mechanical interactions that happen under that kind of design. Keep on ranting about it being used as some 'novelty excuse'. You'll go far. Almost like ignorance by choice. Almost..
*snip* This is not an imageboard
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OT: OP wants to be able to choose which IP to spawn from, great stuff, agreed. Any more ideas @orbitalshape?
I am not attempting to discuss this with you.
You've already said you don't wish to, and i already told you i get why and won't engage in it with you.
I did ask you a question though that you didn't answer.. interestingly.
My forum searching yielded nothing but my own topic - Which if you read it, I clearly stated again and again was not for discussing the topic, so it serves as a poor reference. You missed the point of that thread, entirely, I guess. (which is actually spelled out in there eventually. hint: Bacillus got it on the first page)
Feel free to link an actual argument regarding "mechanical interactions" next time instead of a buzzword if you feel so inclined to participate... else don't bother, dc_darkling is capable providing an argument and he is much more pleasant.
Some bring alarm, on marine turtles. So one thing must be decided?
Do we need beter marine turtle or no?
If yes,i was thinking about
(This will be sounding crazy and im not even sure, but that is why forums are for,for opinions)
Hand in Repair, if u have building with hand in base,that repair just armor ,marine and building in small area, but can have it if u have second com?
To crazy to wrap a head,any1 ?
Keep in mind that repair rate and res price may tweaked,so UP/OP is not question.
Still faster repair rate than macs!
Question,do we need for marines to turtle?
That's why you were supposed to get 2nd tp [i}then[/i] nano. Of course if you could get both, why not?
I still preferred 2nd seat for proto, but I understand comp games tend to be shorter than pubs.
And that's why I want NS1 mod.
It's more that it takes aliens ages to research all the tech that they need to break a turtle when they have otherwise already won the game.
That is mostly due to the high tRes cost on alien tech overall and the time and cost of lifeform upgrades (compared to just getting the individual upgrades that you need for your current situation). Even if you own the entire map with 7+ RTs, you still need to dish out 40 tRes for each new Hive, then 50 tRes for the Biomass upgrades in that Hive, then 70 tRes to get the Veil/Spur/Shell to maximum for that Hive. Then usually 35 tRes for each lifeform upgrade, which also takes 2:30 minutes to complete.
In the meanwhile does the rest of your alien team usually attempt to break the turtle before they have all the necessary upgrades and risks to lose some of the higher lifeforms due to that.
If I sum things up, then aliens need to invest at a bare minimum 645 tRes to get all their upgrades on 9 Biomass. Not even considering spare support chambers, Harvesters and Drifters that need to be dropped and probably replaced over the course of a match.
Compare that to marines who only need to invest 455 tRes (and this includes luxury like 2 PGs, a second IP and an ARC Factory) to unlock all their tech.
Now call me insane, but I remember that marines were supposed to be the team that depends more on tRes while aliens should be relying more on pRes. Granted, I did not include medpack and ammo cost for marines. But I doubt that it accounts for a difference of over 200 tRes over the course of a match. And aliens will probably use some Drifter abilities too.
Sure, this excludes the more expensive Extractors compared to aliens and the general idea that aliens should keep biting them down. But hell, if things go well for marines, it takes them way less time to get all the lategame tech that they need to end alien turtles, compared to how long it takes the alien team.
Well yes usefull marine upgrades take less time and res to get. But that is not cuz they are easy to get , it is cuz they have lesser amount of usefull upgrades, i mean not all are very usefull. All i think ,it will be good it to tweak some unlocks and tie them to second com , like welder exos, or railgun wall penetration (superefective's idea btw).
Every second the aliens debate which CC to bile rush is another second they aren't doing just that.