LokiJoin Date: 2012-07-07Member: 153973Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited May 2014
I did not say kodiak was balanced because of trees. Its not like they move or attack you?????????
I said kodiak is not unbalanced because of trees. AND this was to counter the FALSE statement of aliens can use alien vision to see through trees to snipe marines. when FACT the trees block alien vision (and marine vision).
The mesh over the bridge feedback is the only feedback ive not yet incorporated ( i have not ignored it) as yet, I have seen not urgent need to add it. However it is still very much under consideration. Had the map been a lol alien stomp then yes that would had been in prior to launch.
Anyway funny thing this game of natural selection when people are afraid to try new things.........
I did not say kodiak was balanced because of trees. Its not like they move or attack you?????????
I said kodiak is not unbalanced because of trees. AND this was to counter the FALSE statement of aliens can use alien vision to see through trees to snipe marines. when FACT the trees block alien vision (and marine vision).
You can and also parasites are strong because of it.
I propose that modern gamers are now adapted to cluttered environments.
Hell even the worst COD player can distinguish players in those insanely cluttered environments and vast amounts of visual obstructions.
+ they don't even have alien vision!
You seem to be leaving out the bit where in CoD they move at human speeds that are really easy to track.
A person with 1 eye and 9001ms reaction time can distinguish targets in that game.
Cluttered environments on a physical/collision level are the problem with maps like Eclipse.. this does =/= discussion of visibility and distinguishing targets.
It's more about the positioning and engagement areas that are more effected by it in NS2. Visual clutter is something else entirely imo.
And that's mostly resolved by NS2+ and not really map specific.
The laser drill is something that takes up space that there won't ever be combat around and only serves as something shiney. I believe that is the point he is making. It serves no purpose in the room for either an alien or a marine. It might as well be behind glass. But honestly that drill doesn't bother me.
The original Eclipse that had long hallways in many areas which was fine for NS1. But NS1 had a superior engine and superior movement system.. the solution in NS2 was to shove a bunch of boxes and pillars and other physically obstructing objects into the way and call it "fixed". The draw distance and FPS in those areas was a limiting factor.
I don't think Jonacrab had much choice in the matter. We did our best to give him feedback and he did his best to make the map.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@Locklear
Thanks for that explanation, that's a really good point and shows the importance of making a distinction between visual clutter and mobility obstructions.
Things like the laser do not inhibit or effect movement though, so why make a case for putting it behind glass at all? Same with props that have no collision.
But props and obstructions on Eclipse like the laser for example often give aliens a far too easy time in positioning and "dancing" imo. This problem is only compounded when pings come in to play.
With the increasing amount of matches played in the NSL (Premiere includes NA and EU and no longer seperated) with 30-40ms vs 120-140ms you will never be able to catch that skulk dancing before he's already reacted and outpositioned to the other side of the prop etc.
This isn't a map specific issue completely (dancing on RTs is often impacted by the ping vs ping issue).. but I can see why NSL games played on this map could be frustrating. It's a very different game when the pings are all over the place.
Again, I don't have a problem with the laser lol. But there's so many areas on Eclipse that fit the bill exactly as I'm attempting to convey.
Honestly, I think this all goes to pub v comp.... some of the maps may not be for competitive 6v6, but may play better in larger pubs (ya know, where most people play?).
With ns2wc, ns2 seemed to put more emphasis on competitive play being the future or of something that will be a big part of the future.
I understand how that can annoy competitive players, seeing as there wasn't much push for competitive maps after the event (only going by maps officially released by devs post ns2wc).
So, I see why both sides would have differing opinions on maps. OK more on topic-
I don't understand complaints from competitive players having visual clutter. Yes, some things are there just to make cover for map design flaws (random boxes), but all this talk about lasers and trees in the way seems very... nit-picky.
Maps need some environment. And if competitive players can't find aliens in new places, well, time to adapt and get better? I mean, you play competitive so I'd imagine an increase of difficulty would please you.
I also agree that people need to spend more time playing the new maps. People fear what they don't understand (in this case, the map's design).
That stuff being said - I'm not for maps with clusterfucks of boxes and doohickies being spammed everywhere. I also don't think competitive players are dicks that need to stop whining (doesn't help with the tone that has been set); they have the right to and do/have put a lot of time helping out the development of ns2 overall. I'm sure the map will be editted to perhaps have less of a negative side effect on competitive play, but it may never be entirely 6v6 friendly.
But being extremely nitpicky.... l2p (I'm assuming all competitive players are better than me lol).
Idk whether you just told me to L2P or what that was.
But we aren't whining that the map is "too hard" ... it's more like at equal levels of skill there are issues with it.. whether it be top tier competitive or public.
I was kidding about l2p, I was commenting on the.... nvm, too long to type it out, not worth it.
This has been a majority comp discussion... I haven't seen many people really looking at these maps past 6v6... if this has actually turned into competitive players wanting competitive 6v6 maps specifically for them thread (which I didn't think it was), then I am in the wrong thread.
Was trying to look at it from a not-so-serious comp player who demands the game be only for moving and shooting. I'll take this game much more serious. I was also being reasonably general. I will be more specific from now on.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
With the increasing amount of matches played in the NSL (Premiere includes NA and EU and no longer seperated) with 30-40ms vs 120-140ms you will never be able to catch that skulk dancing before he's already reacted and outpositioned to the other side of the prop etc.
This isn't a map specific issue completely (dancing on RTs is often impacted by the ping vs ping issue).. but I can see why NSL games played on this map could be frustrating. It's a very different game when the pings are all over the place.
Uneven pings could be evened out by adding a minimum latency limit; if you have less latency than the limit, the engine adds enough to put you at the limit.
Adding latency isn't popular, but if you want an even playing field...
While it would make the playing field even - it's just a band aid to the problem once more. (not enough players to have good competition within good ping ranges)
Comments
I said kodiak is not unbalanced because of trees. AND this was to counter the FALSE statement of aliens can use alien vision to see through trees to snipe marines. when FACT the trees block alien vision (and marine vision).
The mesh over the bridge feedback is the only feedback ive not yet incorporated ( i have not ignored it) as yet, I have seen not urgent need to add it. However it is still very much under consideration. Had the map been a lol alien stomp then yes that would had been in prior to launch.
Anyway funny thing this game of natural selection when people are afraid to try new things.........
You quote me and underneath write stuff. It was confusing
Oh c'mon, we all know you coded in some whip abilities when we didn't watch. There's no point in denying it anymore...
You seem to be leaving out the bit where in CoD they move at human speeds that are really easy to track.
A person with 1 eye and 9001ms reaction time can distinguish targets in that game.
Cluttered environments on a physical/collision level are the problem with maps like Eclipse.. this does =/= discussion of visibility and distinguishing targets.
It's more about the positioning and engagement areas that are more effected by it in NS2. Visual clutter is something else entirely imo.
And that's mostly resolved by NS2+ and not really map specific.
The laser drill is something that takes up space that there won't ever be combat around and only serves as something shiney. I believe that is the point he is making. It serves no purpose in the room for either an alien or a marine. It might as well be behind glass. But honestly that drill doesn't bother me.
The original Eclipse that had long hallways in many areas which was fine for NS1. But NS1 had a superior engine and superior movement system.. the solution in NS2 was to shove a bunch of boxes and pillars and other physically obstructing objects into the way and call it "fixed". The draw distance and FPS in those areas was a limiting factor.
I don't think Jonacrab had much choice in the matter. We did our best to give him feedback and he did his best to make the map.
Thanks for that explanation, that's a really good point and shows the importance of making a distinction between visual clutter and mobility obstructions.
Things like the laser do not inhibit or effect movement though, so why make a case for putting it behind glass at all? Same with props that have no collision.
But props and obstructions on Eclipse like the laser for example often give aliens a far too easy time in positioning and "dancing" imo. This problem is only compounded when pings come in to play.
With the increasing amount of matches played in the NSL (Premiere includes NA and EU and no longer seperated) with 30-40ms vs 120-140ms you will never be able to catch that skulk dancing before he's already reacted and outpositioned to the other side of the prop etc.
This isn't a map specific issue completely (dancing on RTs is often impacted by the ping vs ping issue).. but I can see why NSL games played on this map could be frustrating. It's a very different game when the pings are all over the place.
Again, I don't have a problem with the laser lol. But there's so many areas on Eclipse that fit the bill exactly as I'm attempting to convey.
With ns2wc, ns2 seemed to put more emphasis on competitive play being the future or of something that will be a big part of the future.
I understand how that can annoy competitive players, seeing as there wasn't much push for competitive maps after the event (only going by maps officially released by devs post ns2wc).
So, I see why both sides would have differing opinions on maps. OK more on topic-
I don't understand complaints from competitive players having visual clutter. Yes, some things are there just to make cover for map design flaws (random boxes), but all this talk about lasers and trees in the way seems very... nit-picky.
Maps need some environment. And if competitive players can't find aliens in new places, well, time to adapt and get better? I mean, you play competitive so I'd imagine an increase of difficulty would please you.
I also agree that people need to spend more time playing the new maps. People fear what they don't understand (in this case, the map's design).
That stuff being said - I'm not for maps with clusterfucks of boxes and doohickies being spammed everywhere. I also don't think competitive players are dicks that need to stop whining (doesn't help with the tone that has been set); they have the right to and do/have put a lot of time helping out the development of ns2 overall. I'm sure the map will be editted to perhaps have less of a negative side effect on competitive play, but it may never be entirely 6v6 friendly.
But being extremely nitpicky.... l2p
But we aren't whining that the map is "too hard" ... it's more like at equal levels of skill there are issues with it.. whether it be top tier competitive or public.
This has been a majority comp discussion... I haven't seen many people really looking at these maps past 6v6... if this has actually turned into competitive players wanting competitive 6v6 maps specifically for them thread (which I didn't think it was), then I am in the wrong thread.
Was trying to look at it from a not-so-serious comp player who demands the game be only for moving and shooting. I'll take this game much more serious. I was also being reasonably general. I will be more specific from now on.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/134461/ns2-derelict#latest
Uneven pings could be evened out by adding a minimum latency limit; if you have less latency than the limit, the engine adds enough to put you at the limit.
Adding latency isn't popular, but if you want an even playing field...
While it would make the playing field even - it's just a band aid to the problem once more. (not enough players to have good competition within good ping ranges)