Even though this thread is old, I feel like giving my opinion.
Exos
Hell yes, Exos need a buff, but please don't make them cheaper. Exos just don't pack the same punch anymore as before. Remember b249 Exos? They were tough, they were deadly, they made gameplay one dimensional. But they worked - those Exos were tanks. Nowadays, Exos are faster than ever before, but have (comparably) little health and less damage output. Hence why no one uses them: The flexibility of a SG + JP marine always wins over the drawbacks of an Exo.
We have to find the sweet spot between "pain train time bomb" (aka pre250) and "glass cannon" (aka today).
My suggestion is:
- Make them slower
- Give them more health
- Buff their damage
- Make them slower
This could give an Exo some actual strategical value once he's on the field.
Another issue with Exos is that they easily become a noob trap. Moreso the current Exos, because they are not as powerful as they are advertised; but if you have half a team of Exos you can't react to anything.
I think a way to neatly avoid this noob trap AND make them fierce war machines again would be the following way to limit the amount of Exos on the field:
1) Exos have to be requested by the comm at the proto lab (for TRES) (one by one)
2) Once marines have "permittance" to buy X Exos they can buy them at the proto lab for PRES
This a) allows Exos to be buffed back to proper tanks as they are now a huge res investment, giving them back their strategical value; b) avoids half of your team suddenly go Exo by giving the comm more control about the Exos on the field and c) encourages teamplay (commander and field have to *kinda* work together to get an Exo running, because both have to invest RES)
I think this way - if properly balanced - the advantages of a moderate use of Exos could outweigh the all-jetpack-strat.
Now, you may disagree with the proposed system, but my basic opinion still is: Exos need buffs to damage and health, and a nerf to speed, because they are currently not specialized enough.
Fades
Hell yes, Fade upgrades are useless. It's not the upgrade cost, though; that's perfectly fine. Fade abilities are just never researched because they are useless (save for <1% of pro players who actually use them; congrats to them, but there are a lot of good fade players out there who do just fine without the upgrades. Source? Go on a server and ask someone.).
The only way I could think of on how to fix this - you may have a better one, please post it here - is to try and revert the Fade movement to pre250.
Back then, momentum was added via Shadow Step, while you had to research blink to get a momentum-less CQ movement ability.
-> You actually gained a new, valuable movement ability through research.
Nowadays, the usage of Shadow Step can be easily augmented by using Blink, rendering Shadow Step redundant. Vortex suffers from a high energy cost, and both the usage of Stab and Vortex has - imo - not been fully optimized yet, because we never get to see Fade ups.
Solution: Well... find a way to make Fade ups worthwile again. E.g. by making them grant new movement abilities, just like before the balance patch.
Gorges
Hell, y... wait, what? Gorges are fine. A gorge with celerity bellysliding down a ramp is lightning fast. And seriously, if you get killed by a jetpacker... you are putting 10-res lategame tech against <12 early game tech (gorges are available from minute 0 onwards!)... by a point where gorges are free, anyway (ask your khamm).
Agree with @F0rdPrefect on the exo side of things, though I don't think fades should be reverted to SS movement.
Lowering the cost of fade upgrades might help a little (would certainly give the comm less of a reason not to research), though certainly a good deal of the problem is that stab and vortex are crap, as has been discussed at length in other threads.
I think SS is undervalued at the moment though, it gives fades an extra movement optio for getting in/out of combat, adding to their survivability.
I'm leaning more and more towards favouring the re-introduction of metabolise; I find myself taking regen as a fade as often as I can to be able to stay in a long engagement/grind. Carapace is pretty much necessary if the other team can shoot and has W2 shotties, but you potentially lose killing power without that fast regen.
Sure, crag stations exist, as do gorges, but more often that not it's safer and faster to just retreat to the hive to recover health quickly.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2014
Pub games could also benefit from cheaper alien lifeforms (with reduced initial player res), a change in the experimental competitive mod, since lifeforms die so much quicker and more frequently in larger games. Whereas most marine equipment can be recycled, some of the time.
I'd like to see hydras be available at biomass 2 - seriously an early gorge rush with hydras is BS. Also tunnels should cost slightly more (say 10 res each - still cheap compared to phase gates) so they can only be available later.
In exchange, less jumping speed from marines. So annoying.
It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
It's funny how so many topics were created, buried and rejected for the whole making PUB and COMP mods separate to a appease those different audiences. And here we are, doing just that.
It's funny how so many topics were created, buried and rejected for the whole making PUB and COMP mods separate to a appease those different audiences. And here we are, doing just that.
Hooray for progress! Power to the people!
Now, if we keep talking to UWE about PR and marketing, maybe their customer relations will improve a bit
It's funny how so many topics were created, buried and rejected for the whole making PUB and COMP mods separate to a appease those different audiences. And here we are, doing just that.
Hooray for progress! Power to the people!
There is nothing stating that comp mod couldn't be used in general play. Larger player count server hell already uses custom balance, so not like the comp mod would ruin the game for those people. In fact, comp mod would improve said pub game. Unless me spamming cheap as hell Crag/Whips everywhere is fun to play against due to default alien tech costing a ton. Both fixed in comp mod, both problems in pub.
It's funny how so many topics were created, buried and rejected for the whole making PUB and COMP mods separate to a appease those different audiences. And here we are, doing just that.
Hooray for progress! Power to the people!
There is nothing stating that comp mod couldn't be used in general play. Larger player count server hell already uses custom balance, so not like the comp mod would ruin the game for those people. In fact, comp mod would improve said pub game. Unless me spamming cheap as hell Crag/Whips everywhere is fun to play against due to default alien tech costing a ton. Both fixed in comp mod, both problems in pub.
HBZ public server is / was running it.
Its only 9 vs 9 so it seems to work well.
I think being able to weld the Exos a little bit faster is probably the best approach. For one, it rewards and encourages teamplay. God knows we don't have enough of that.
I always try to heal the Exos, but I often think I could have contributed more to the battle if I spent that time shooting down skulks or something that damages the Exos in the first place.
railgun exos do not suck, make your aim suck less and avoid onos
all i want added is
powered armor which give +1 ar upgrade to level 4 ar and xenocide immunity. costing 15res
i would also like xeno changed so that the skulks do not trigger it but instead it auto triggers upon skulk death with a smaller radius and damage output.
Is this a wish list thread? Or are devs/modders considering changes such as these? Just a decent amnt of changes suggested and I don't believe uwe has the time to do all this stuff with subnotica going. If modders are considering these things, then that's nice. Otherwise, this will sadly be a wish full thinking thread.. not trying to be negative or a dick, just trying to be realistic.
I think being able to weld the Exos a little bit faster is probably the best approach. For one, it rewards and encourages teamplay. God knows we don't have enough of that.
I always try to heal the Exos, but I often think I could have contributed more to the battle if I spent that time shooting down skulks or something that damages the Exos in the first place.
What is dis teamplay you speak of?
When it comes down to it, you just go in there guns blazing with your frigging jetpack as those are the only 2 things that have teamplay.
I think being able to weld the Exos a little bit faster is probably the best approach. For one, it rewards and encourages teamplay. God knows we don't have enough of that.
I always try to heal the Exos, but I often think I could have contributed more to the battle if I spent that time shooting down skulks or something that damages the Exos in the first place.
What is dis teamplay you speak of?
When it comes down to it, you just go in there guns blazing with your frigging jetpack as those are the only 2 things that have teamplay.
@CyberKun
Disagree, there are a couple of additions in that mod which are not conducive whatsoever to pub play, based on the skill floor assumption with them.
Some examples:
Making the Lerk - the most difficult class to learn for rookies - even harder to use with umbra, increasing the risk of death.
Unnecessarily buffing the viability of fades by increasing the amount of roles they can perform (now capable of their full 75 damage on structures, compared to 37, once armor is removed)
Plus, there is also nothing addressing the top issues in pub play in that comp mod, (1 min GTs, Exo viability. Whips are rarely used to the same degree of effectiveness as seen in comp games, so they're less of an issue) meaning nothing largely beneficial for running it other than being able to recoup your higher lifeform quicker..
So I hardly see a case for running it for any pub server, atm.
I think being able to weld the Exos a little bit faster is probably the best approach. For one, it rewards and encourages teamplay. God knows we don't have enough of that.
I always try to heal the Exos, but I often think I could have contributed more to the battle if I spent that time shooting down skulks or something that damages the Exos in the first place.
Agreed, but only in smaller servers. Larger ones already have enough people to weld the exo. But in smaller games... I guess its more like pug play so they wouldn't have many exos... I have died welding the rogue exo in a larger server setting. I think if I had helped firing we'd both live...
I guess I don't really agree lol but I see where you're coming from.
Increase the base speed of gorges from 6 to 7
A lot of higher level players don't like playing gorge because they are so vulnerable. I think a slight increase in their base speed would make gorges less helpless against good marines.
I think the speed of the Gorge is fine. If you want the bump in speed, use Celerity. An area I would like to see buffed is the belly slide speed and momentum. It use to be really useful for getaways, but they nerfed it a while ago and you're practically a sitting duck using belly side unless you have a slope to gain momentum to build speed.
Increase the base speed of gorges from 6 to 7
A lot of higher level players don't like playing gorge because they are so vulnerable. I think a slight increase in their base speed would make gorges less helpless against good marines.
I think the speed of the Gorge is fine. If you want the bump in speed, use Celerity. An area I would like to see buffed is the belly slide speed and momentum. It use to be really useful for getaways, but they nerfed it a while ago and you're practically a sitting duck using belly side unless you have a slope to gain momentum to build speed.
While fleeing, place clog. Quikly hop on clog and slide. Provides cover and great speed of slide.
Comments
Exos
Hell yes, Exos need a buff, but please don't make them cheaper. Exos just don't pack the same punch anymore as before. Remember b249 Exos? They were tough, they were deadly, they made gameplay one dimensional. But they worked - those Exos were tanks. Nowadays, Exos are faster than ever before, but have (comparably) little health and less damage output. Hence why no one uses them: The flexibility of a SG + JP marine always wins over the drawbacks of an Exo.
We have to find the sweet spot between "pain train time bomb" (aka pre250) and "glass cannon" (aka today).
My suggestion is:
- Make them slower
- Give them more health
- Buff their damage
- Make them slower
This could give an Exo some actual strategical value once he's on the field.
Another issue with Exos is that they easily become a noob trap. Moreso the current Exos, because they are not as powerful as they are advertised; but if you have half a team of Exos you can't react to anything.
I think a way to neatly avoid this noob trap AND make them fierce war machines again would be the following way to limit the amount of Exos on the field:
1) Exos have to be requested by the comm at the proto lab (for TRES) (one by one)
2) Once marines have "permittance" to buy X Exos they can buy them at the proto lab for PRES
This a) allows Exos to be buffed back to proper tanks as they are now a huge res investment, giving them back their strategical value; b) avoids half of your team suddenly go Exo by giving the comm more control about the Exos on the field and c) encourages teamplay (commander and field have to *kinda* work together to get an Exo running, because both have to invest RES)
I think this way - if properly balanced - the advantages of a moderate use of Exos could outweigh the all-jetpack-strat.
Now, you may disagree with the proposed system, but my basic opinion still is: Exos need buffs to damage and health, and a nerf to speed, because they are currently not specialized enough.
Fades
Hell yes, Fade upgrades are useless. It's not the upgrade cost, though; that's perfectly fine. Fade abilities are just never researched because they are useless (save for <1% of pro players who actually use them; congrats to them, but there are a lot of good fade players out there who do just fine without the upgrades. Source? Go on a server and ask someone.).
The only way I could think of on how to fix this - you may have a better one, please post it here - is to try and revert the Fade movement to pre250.
Back then, momentum was added via Shadow Step, while you had to research blink to get a momentum-less CQ movement ability.
-> You actually gained a new, valuable movement ability through research.
Nowadays, the usage of Shadow Step can be easily augmented by using Blink, rendering Shadow Step redundant. Vortex suffers from a high energy cost, and both the usage of Stab and Vortex has - imo - not been fully optimized yet, because we never get to see Fade ups.
Solution: Well... find a way to make Fade ups worthwile again. E.g. by making them grant new movement abilities, just like before the balance patch.
Gorges
Hell, y... wait, what? Gorges are fine. A gorge with celerity bellysliding down a ramp is lightning fast. And seriously, if you get killed by a jetpacker... you are putting 10-res lategame tech against <12 early game tech (gorges are available from minute 0 onwards!)... by a point where gorges are free, anyway (ask your khamm).
Lowering the cost of fade upgrades might help a little (would certainly give the comm less of a reason not to research), though certainly a good deal of the problem is that stab and vortex are crap, as has been discussed at length in other threads.
I think SS is undervalued at the moment though, it gives fades an extra movement optio for getting in/out of combat, adding to their survivability.
I'm leaning more and more towards favouring the re-introduction of metabolise; I find myself taking regen as a fade as often as I can to be able to stay in a long engagement/grind. Carapace is pretty much necessary if the other team can shoot and has W2 shotties, but you potentially lose killing power without that fast regen.
Sure, crag stations exist, as do gorges, but more often that not it's safer and faster to just retreat to the hive to recover health quickly.
In exchange, less jumping speed from marines. So annoying.
Hooray for progress! Power to the people!
Now, if we keep talking to UWE about PR and marketing, maybe their customer relations will improve a bit
There is nothing stating that comp mod couldn't be used in general play. Larger player count server hell already uses custom balance, so not like the comp mod would ruin the game for those people. In fact, comp mod would improve said pub game. Unless me spamming cheap as hell Crag/Whips everywhere is fun to play against due to default alien tech costing a ton. Both fixed in comp mod, both problems in pub.
HBZ public server is / was running it.
Its only 9 vs 9 so it seems to work well.
I always try to heal the Exos, but I often think I could have contributed more to the battle if I spent that time shooting down skulks or something that damages the Exos in the first place.
all i want added is
powered armor which give +1 ar upgrade to level 4 ar and xenocide immunity. costing 15res
i would also like xeno changed so that the skulks do not trigger it but instead it auto triggers upon skulk death with a smaller radius and damage output.
What is dis teamplay you speak of?
When it comes down to it, you just go in there guns blazing with your frigging jetpack as those are the only 2 things that have teamplay.
Ever heard about positioning?
Disagree, there are a couple of additions in that mod which are not conducive whatsoever to pub play, based on the skill floor assumption with them.
Some examples:
Making the Lerk - the most difficult class to learn for rookies - even harder to use with umbra, increasing the risk of death.
Unnecessarily buffing the viability of fades by increasing the amount of roles they can perform (now capable of their full 75 damage on structures, compared to 37, once armor is removed)
Plus, there is also nothing addressing the top issues in pub play in that comp mod, (1 min GTs, Exo viability. Whips are rarely used to the same degree of effectiveness as seen in comp games, so they're less of an issue) meaning nothing largely beneficial for running it other than being able to recoup your higher lifeform quicker..
So I hardly see a case for running it for any pub server, atm.
Agreed, but only in smaller servers. Larger ones already have enough people to weld the exo. But in smaller games... I guess its more like pug play so they wouldn't have many exos... I have died welding the rogue exo in a larger server setting. I think if I had helped firing we'd both live...
I guess I don't really agree lol but I see where you're coming from.
I think the speed of the Gorge is fine. If you want the bump in speed, use Celerity. An area I would like to see buffed is the belly slide speed and momentum. It use to be really useful for getaways, but they nerfed it a while ago and you're practically a sitting duck using belly side unless you have a slope to gain momentum to build speed.
While fleeing, place clog. Quikly hop on clog and slide. Provides cover and great speed of slide.
Arguably the single greatest underused tactic for a Gorge.