Very Important Clan Balance Stuff-read It!
Eats
Join Date: 2002-10-24 Member: 1582Members
Join Date: 2002-10-24 Member: 1582Members
For everyone in clans who cares about where clanplay in ns is going, you really need to get behind this:
<a href='http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml' target='_blank'>http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml</a>
As of this posting everything short of extra stuff(because they haven't seen it yet) is endorsed by all of sYn and Rusher(from TAU-ns) All of these people have lots of experience under clan match conditions. I encourage you to read this as it includes a discussion of the top strategies being used right now, and what needs to be fixed in this game to improve the depth of matches.
If you agree with this article I encourage you to post here and endorse it, please include your match experience and clan.
If you disagree with it that's fine too, but before you say anything please post your match experience and clan as well.
If you're a dev I would love to hear what you have to say, also feel free to email me at shambler@shambler.net
If you want to bump this and it needs a bump, then bump it.
As for me I'm eats, formerly from TAU but currently in sYn, and I have played over 50 rounds under match conditions against other clans.
<a href='http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml' target='_blank'>http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml</a>
As of this posting everything short of extra stuff(because they haven't seen it yet) is endorsed by all of sYn and Rusher(from TAU-ns) All of these people have lots of experience under clan match conditions. I encourage you to read this as it includes a discussion of the top strategies being used right now, and what needs to be fixed in this game to improve the depth of matches.
If you agree with this article I encourage you to post here and endorse it, please include your match experience and clan.
If you disagree with it that's fine too, but before you say anything please post your match experience and clan as well.
If you're a dev I would love to hear what you have to say, also feel free to email me at shambler@shambler.net
If you want to bump this and it needs a bump, then bump it.
As for me I'm eats, formerly from TAU but currently in sYn, and I have played over 50 rounds under match conditions against other clans.
Comments
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=13394' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...ST&f=22&t=13394</a>
and
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=13398' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=5&t=13398</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just to clarify, in an even and well played match using the best known strategies right now, it should go 1-1, each side having victory on the marine side. If this is not happening one or both sides are making errors.
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Is complete rubbish. If that was the case, then the game would be unbalanced towards the Marines, yes? There is no <b>should</b> about it. In an even and well played match, both sides should win based on the merits on their teamwork & individual skills.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also it is basically not worth it to spend the time building resource towers at all, since if an alien finds them you can't really defend them<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then your not operating as a team effectively. The idea (I would of thought) is to then send the <b>appropriate</b> amount of firepower to stall the alien attack. The reason this fails, is because 90% of commanders seem to think "appropriate" means, everyone. You want enough to stop them, whilst still keeping up pressure on alien players elsewhere.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->silence perhaps could be revamped/bundled with another ability(Cloak?) to make that ability more viable at lower levels.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do agree here. Silence on it's own is not used, (very often) simply because the other two alternatives are far superior (I prefer Celerity, but the raving Adreners seem to think continuous shooting is necessary, which it isn't)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a marine places a mine on an unclaimed resource point, when a gorge starts building a resource tower there, the mine will trigger and the gorge, as well as the resource tower, will be destroyed. This isn't a problem yet, but could become a problem, as one-hive-aliens lack a way to detonate these mines without damaging themselves severely, if not dying. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I keep telling people this in pub games. If a skulk runs through 5 mines, and detonates them, he's made a RP <i>profit</i>, but try convincing the DM'ers that.
Lastly, I don't think most marines realise how GOOD their armour upgrades are. It is SO much harder to kill a marine with A.Upgrade 3 than 0, but most players seem to think more damage = more survivable.
(Oh, and cos I mention it all the time in the hope it gets done {which it won't} make the upgrades vanish if the buildings are destroyed, it'd still make the M's have a reason to defend them, and it would force the aliens to choose targets a bit more.)
let's hope the name and clan membership of the author will lend it the attention it deserves
"Is complete rubbish. If that was the case, then the game would be unbalanced towards the Marines, yes? There is no should about it. In an even and well played match, both sides should win based on the merits on their teamwork & individual skills."
The game is unbalanced towards the marines. And in an even game the marines will win, however, there is always a discrepancy(in anything) that something ridiculous and game turning could happen. Like skulks winning in an initial rush because there's a lag spike or something.
For you not to be aware that marines are unbalanced makes me think you either have no or little clan experience, and probably play alot on the pubs.
"Also it is basically not worth it to spend the time building resource towers at all, since if an alien finds them you can't really defend them"
"Then your not operating as a team effectively. The idea (I would of thought) is to then send the appropriate amount of firepower to stall the alien attack. The reason this fails, is because 90% of commanders seem to think "appropriate" means, everyone. You want enough to stop them, whilst still keeping up pressure on alien players elsewhere."
Aliens are much faster then marines, by the time a marine gets there the rt will be down to red or in ruins, and you've now sent a marine that could have been helping in a group attack on the hive to instead defend a resource tower. When you do things like this you feed into alien delaying tactics. This attack now probably failed because it only had 2(or at most 3 if you drew one from base defense, but thats unsafe) marines when it should of had 1 more. The aliens are now this much closer to having a second hive, and you have probably a high red rt and possibly a wounded marine whose armor you can't easily repair. Now if you try to pull this marine from the rt a skulk can hit it again and it will die. Or you could waste more time and resources giving a marine a welder and making him run all the way to the rt to repair it. But now the skulks know its there, so next time they will probably attack with 3 skulks and you'd have to task basically your entire mobile attack force(3 marines) to it, not that they would even make it their in time. Basically the only ways to defend this rt would be to keep at least 1 marine there full time, spend 40 more rp(on top of 22) on 2 phase gates, or spend a ridiculous amount of rp on a fact. Any of these options would take a significant amount of time, marines, and resources that you don't have to spare.
Just to clarify, its not enough to keep pressure on the aliens. You can't let them get 2 hives up or you've lost, so you have to actively be taking a hive down.
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..... Shockwave obviously you havent played in enough higher level clan matches. Counter-strike cal-im+ level aim + ns + teamwork = unstoppable marine before lvl 2 or 3 carapace.... in pubs one can rambo against 7 (on avg) skulls and take always 2-7 out (not only killing but telling his team the direction they are coming/not coming in many cases being respawned by the initial rush in your base) with positioning with his starting 50 lmg bullets, 10 pistol bullets... then perhaps he survives the marine can run around and hunt a gorge down almost freelance as the gorge hops around his first expansion. (dont this over 20 times in a pub)
sYn | Amit <Uubu>
Also I probably like many others have removed the skulks teeths, simply because its crap and literally gives me a headache to play with it.
I think the main use of it is to determine what causes the game not to develop into a middle and late game. Therefore developers can make the appropriate adjustments, and the community can better understand the balance of the game.
[the rest is conclusions and suggestions so it may be skipped by those not wanting to hear it... they aren't organized in any good fashion anyways]
From what I've read, it seems aliens need to be slightly better at the start and less powerful in the middle, while marines need to get to their armor upgrades just a bit faster. This would suggest (as the article states it, but doesn't suggest it... so I will) that once the alien armor bug[?] is fixed that increasing the alien base hp and/or armor would help. I would also think that decreasing the cost of the Arms Lab would benefit the balance as well to balance 2-hives. As for the "future problems" section, I think it should be ignored as I disagree with it's conclusion. I have no say on the Lerk issue... both options (how it is now, how it is suggested) seem viable. And most importantly, I like the skulk bite model.
Also I probably like many others have removed the skulks teeths, simply because its crap and literally gives me a headache to play with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spit doesn't always detonate mines. Sometimes I get it to work... most of the time, not.
Skulk bite model is great. Create a script that toggles view models off when you use skulk at a touch of a button. (*cough*, unless people consider this cheating... personally, I would be fine with it going against you as marine)
HAHA <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'll agree with this guy that aliens are stronger than marines in 1.02. With turrets getting their testes ripped off and Fades getting that big boost, once the second hive hits the ground it's incredibly difficult for marines to both hold the ground they have, and put pressure on the aliens.
However, once he says the words "Deeper Problems", the crack seems to kick in:
He starts talking about how not being able to have 4 guys focus fire on a Skulk is a problem. How webbing is so incredibly overpowered that not only should it take forever to put down, there should be a limit of 10/Gorge. Marines should be unable to mass, cause moving in groups is obviously not what the developers intended. Lerk's Spikes are completely useless. A marine with a pack of mines might prevent the aliens from ever expanding.
Or his extra stuff:
He want's marine kills because marines don't care about their kill counts. Oh yeah, and Umbra should shield things that aren't in the cloud so that I can get even more Fades in on the Acid Rocketing fun.
Despite all this insane rambling, he does have a few good ideas though.
Replacing EHS: I'ld like to see person Motion Tracking immunity instead of an alien flashlight. Being able to talk to other spectators would be nice. And he does have a minor point in that Regen is overshadowed by DC healing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-The skulk bite model makes Jesus cry(I know I didn't mention this but either league rules should be changed to be able to turn this off, or it should just be altered to not cover the whole screen. Not only is it annoying and headache inducing, but it makes being a skulk considerably harder. But: This will not balance the 2 races at the one hive stage! Do not fix this and think the problem is solved!)
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I did mention this, and in leagues you arent allowed to toggle the model.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He starts talking about how not being able to have 4 guys focus fire on a Skulk is a problem. How webbing is so incredibly overpowered that not only should it take forever to put down, there should be a limit of 10/Gorge. Marines should be unable to mass, cause moving in groups is obviously not what the developers intended. Lerk's Spikes are completely useless. A marine with a pack of mines might prevent the aliens from ever expanding.
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............
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This entire article is only relevant to clan play.
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Everything you say is ridiculous and you provide no support for any of your points. All this makes me think is that you know nothing about clanplay. I assure you the developers didn't plan for this game to always end with a marine one hive rush. And if you think/know-how-to-add you'd realize you are able to lay 1 web instantly. Also I guess how totally illogical it is that a marine shooting through an umbra cloud that blocks bullets if you're in it doesn't block bullets if you're behind it doesn't bother you. If you don't realize how ridiculous this is then I'm not sure whats wrong with you.(I didn't even suggest it was true, I said in case, not tested yet.) Honestly, I am not talking about how you have fun playing on pubs and lay 100 webs all over the map, go get 100 kills with lerk spike, and talk about what a l77t h4x0r you are. Just go home. kthxbye
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This would suggest (as the article states it, but doesn't suggest it... so I will) that once the alien armor bug[?] is fixed that increasing the alien base hp and/or armor would help.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A skulk with no carapace upgrade dies in ten lmg shots, while a skulk with a level three carapace upgrade dies in twenty-one lmg shots. This is ridiculous and is even more amplified when you look at fades. However, fixing this would only accentuate the current unbalance towards marines unless health was also amplified across the board for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the "future problems" section, I think it should be ignored as I disagree with it's conclusion. I have no say on the Lerk issue... both options (how it is now, how it is suggested) seem viable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With one hive you never see lerks, and with two hives you never see more then like one-two lerks not being used in a support role(to umbra only).
I mean, I guess offensive webbing isn't a problem if you think a gorge was meant to be able to web incoming marines, and there are supposed to be 20+ webs between the base and each hive + o/d chambers. It adds to the fun when the webs are put on the ground in such a way that they're nearly invisible so the gorge starts getting a high kill count with heal kills. So, in conclusion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This entire article is only relevant to clan play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's just a few things I want to respond to.
Umbra doesn't block shots that go through it for a very good reason. You can be damn near invincible Mr. Fade, you just can't move more than 3 feet in any direction. It's called sacrificing 'reality' for gameplay.
The fact you don't see good Lerks is not proof there are none. Go to some of the other threads you've posted this in and you'll see other people who will be glad to regail you with tales of the time a Lerk took their HA/HMG butt to the cleaners.
I don't care how much webbing you have, you should never <b>ever</b> be able to get Heal kills from webbing. This could only work if you were the only marine in the area, in which case you're dead anyway.
kplzdiethxipwnjooalltohellkekekekemyl33t>yours
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Umbra doesn't block shots that go through it for a very good reason. You can be damn near invincible Mr. Fade, you just can't move more than 3 feet in any direction. It's called sacrificing 'reality' for gameplay.
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This is stupid, i think they probably left it out because it was a programming issue. Because if you're in umbra that can be a variable placed on the player to reduce damage based on the damage type. However, I would like this to be fixed if possible.
I hope you realize how ridiculous this is. This is how it is not to balance the game. The game would not become unbalanced if umbra worked like it implies. But you know what, its extra stuff so its not even that important.
I'm done dealing with this 1 hive lerk can take ha/hmg marine nonsense, or that 1 hive lerk is good and there is a good 1 hive class system. You see 5 skulks(maybe 1 lerk, but rarely) and that sucks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->correct me if i'm wrong, but would hitscan weapons even know if they travelled through Umbra? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly doubt they do and its a variable on the player being hit. Then it checks damage type to see if it should be reduced. So this would need a kind of large fix.
Just to clarify. We have 2 marines guarding and one cutting, but before we begin to cut we must fire through and take out the towers. I'm not saying this isn't possible, but this is through many rooms and it takes a lot of time/ammo/health to do this, and if you get bum rushed by 3 skulks while fighting the towers you are going to lose at least 1 marine, making it even less safe to continue welding.
But the big factor here is time/marines involved. In the time it takes to blow thru these the gorge can throw all this stuff up in another room, and you now have 3 of your 5 marines involved in just this task. I mean, who is defending the third hive(assuming you locked it down)?? from a big alien attack. They have total speed advantage on you and can harass all over. A fade runs faster then a lmg marine, and I'm not even considering blink.
1) I believe at least 1 marine in every 3 should have a welder. MIN.
2) Upon repairing / consolidating that base, I think the Marines must THEN move on, to further alien containment. Make them move about a bit, go annoy a gorge, try & take Hive3 before they get there, whatever. If you meet a Fade, and none of you have HMG, focus fire him, then fall back while he goes to regen.
I am permanently trying to encourage this sort of play (I have a semi-clan I play with, but I don't wish to be a member because I'm looking for "The One" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) as well as on the pubs.
As for the marines being unbalaced (in your opinion) well, I think that's just the standard flow back & forth. We could all go on about the validity of that comment for the rest of the day.
Finally, the reason I believe Fades are considered unbalanced currently, is because marine players do not <i>follow up</i> on their attacks. Too many players allow me all the time to fall back when I lose some health, and I'm back within 1 min at most, depending on how long I have to travel to the nearest DC etc. But if they kept up the pressure, not only will that Fade player (as we all do, sometimes) panic, and is likely to screw up and get himself killed, he'll also probably lead you to their nearest regen point (which are usually lousily defended)
Just trying to follow up. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is considered a cheat by <b>Everyone</b>
<span style='color:Red'>No skirty the swear filter, no flames. Very simple.</span>
not sure if hl will accept this sort of thing
alias +view "+attack;r_drawviewmodel 0"
alias -view "-attack;r_drawviewmodel 1"
bind "mouse1" "+view"
regardless the command to turn off model is r_drawviewmodel
alias view "r_drawviewmodel 1; bind ins view2; echo weapon models ON"
alias view2 "r_drawviewmodel 0;bind ins view;echo weapon models OFF"
alias -m "-attack; r_drawviewmodel 1"
Or, just hardcode the variable, don't change the model and make everybody play with the teeth.
1)the teeth are annoying.
2)the teeth are headache inducing.(this is not the same as #1 at all)
3)the teeth make the skulks even worse then they are now.
4)the teeth reduce the amount of skill involved in being a skulk. They make it so you have to guess what the marine is doing when you can't see him because the model is blocking you. Adding randomness to the game decreases the skill level involved.
For all of these reasons, one of the fixes I suggested on the last page should be used.