Grenades need tweaking

aeroripper

A few simple changes:

- Grenades cost 5 res to research.
- All grenades are 'dropable' weapons. Dead marines with unused grenade(s) drop them for other marines to recycle, assuming them have room to pick them up.
- Max grenades carried is raised to 3, from 2.
- Can carry different grenade types. They're purchased 1 at a time. Weapon groups "5" "6" "7" for different carried grenade type.
- Grenade prices reduced to 1 res each. 1 grenade for 1 res.
- Throw time reduced. After grenade thrown, auto-switch back to previous weapon.

Thoughts?

Ren26

Grenades kind of suck because they take forever to equip and throw.

aeroripper

IIRC, in NS1 they had the same problem, and patched it so the prime animation was skipped and the grenade threw immediately.

RapGod

I find nerve gas to be the only viable grenade... maybe op. you can take all an onos' armor then just need a cpl more people to mow him down in less than 10s. spawning with that would be immediate look down and and throw if any base rush is starting.. honestly they just need to make it easier to see where or nades will land/travel.

not to mention that you can throw the made at a possible alien rush point while u axe an rt... once DMG counters show up then you know something is coming. heheheh... coming...

ritualsacrifice

Nades need to be offhand, like in Tribes 2.

The animation could just show you throwing it with your left hand, so it's not magically appearing out of your chest like it did in T2. That way you don't have to worry about weapon switch time, which would allow them to be used in combat more effectively.

current1y

I had some good fun over the last few days basically doing nothing but buying grenades and throwing them. I can concluseively say clusters are only good on gorge forts. Gas are pretty good when making a push into a hive area and Pulse grenades are almost completely useless. I used pulse the most and the only time they proved usefull was for killing skulks with direct hits early game (which isn't easy) and then killing gorges in the open. The ROF reduction and prox damage they do are meaningless.

The grenades do need reworked. I wouldn't mind having an open to spawn with a "grenade of choice" every spawn.

SUPER_SARS

A direct hit with a pulse nade needs to go back up to 120 damage

IeptBarakat

Cluster grenades do little too late in the game, and are rarely ever researched before their impact is negligible.

The ns1 equivalent 'personal hand grenade', at least did enough burst damage to ward off Gorges that were bilebombing from vents.

One time in veil, a gorge was bile bombing in the nano vent, I pretty much was buying and chucking grenades at the gorge for a few minutes until the commander researched jetpacks so I could fly in there and take him out.

aeroripper

Updated initial post with changes.

Sewlek

grenades are spammed enough currently, i dont want to encourage that even more (your changes support more spam in the end). i would rather increase their cost to 5 p.res, but increase the draw animation / prime animation speed, so you can use them better also in combat, or at least have lower preparation time before combat

IronHorse

Exactly what sewlek said.. We don't want a SpamField 4 game.. Nothing enjoyable about that.
Definitely agree with deploy speed issues

soccerguy243

aeroripper wrote: »

A few simple changes:

- Grenades cost 5 res to research.
- All grenades are 'dropable' weapons. Dead marines with unused grenade(s) drop them for other marines to recycle, assuming them have room to pick them up.
- Max grenades carried is raised to 3, from 2.
- Can carry different grenade types. They're purchased 1 at a time. Weapon groups "5" "6" "7" for different carried grenade type.
- Grenade prices reduced to 1 res each. 1 grenade for 1 res.
- Throw time reduced. After grenade thrown, auto-switch back to previous weapon.

Thoughts?

yes!

current1y

SUPER_SARS wrote: »

A direct hit with a pulse nade needs to go back up to 120 damage

What does it do? I was getting 99 damage sometimes with direct hits. It seemed inconsistent. Sometimes I would do 60ish other times it would be a 99 hit.

Neoken

I only really use gas grenades atm, but it's very situational (rushing a hive or alien stronghold). Cluster and pulse are even more situational, and less powerful overall it seems. I wouldn't mind pulse doing less damage but having a bigger and longer lasting effect on alien attack rate. Cluster could use a bigger direct hit damage imo.

But in general, a seperate key for throwing grenades and speeding up the animation would go a long way.

SUPER_SARS

current1y wrote: »

SUPER_SARS wrote: »

A direct hit with a pulse nade needs to go back up to 120 damage

What does it do? I was getting 99 damage sometimes with direct hits. It seemed inconsistent. Sometimes I would do 60ish other times it would be a 99 hit.

Well its the proximity detonator that was put in the pulse nades. From what I remember sewlek put that in so more of them would "hit" and blow up instead of missing everything and blow up in the background. Right now you usually do about 60 damage on most stuff due to the proximity detonator, before it was there if you landed a direct it it would do 120. It was awesome for fades. Land a direct hit when they were entering the room then cya.

aeroripper

Sewlek wrote: »

grenades are spammed enough currently, i dont want to encourage that even more (your changes support more spam in the end). i would rather increase their cost to 5 p.res, but increase the draw animation / prime animation speed, so you can use them better also in combat, or at least have lower preparation time before combat

A few points on this:

1) Draw animation/prime speed should be reduced regardless of any changes. Grenades need to be made speedier to use in combat.

2) Increasing grenade cost to 5 res will reduce their use further, regardless of improved prime speed. It's not logical to spend 5 res for something you might not even get the chance to use in combat. Especially since unused grenades are not able to be recycled currently.

3) Grenade research is usually done in the late game in most games. This may be different in playtests, but in the majority of the public games I've played this is almost always the case. I'm not knowledgeable enough of grenade use in comp. games to make comment on that. Cluster grenades (in particular) should be used in the early game to help defend marine nodes and flush skulks out of vents. Grenade research should be a priority for the early game marine comm, rather than seeing it as something "not needed and somewhat useless" to be saved for the late game when swimming in res.

I disagree with the 'spam' argument, but would rather see more a more tactical role given to grenades, especially cluster. Each grenade type should fulfill a certain role. As it is currently:

Cluster grenades - Sometimes used suicidally to save marine PG under attack. Least useful of the 3 currently. Doesn't have a good defined role.

Gas grenade - Good for hive pushes and defending against large alien rushes on PG. Area denial.

Pulse grenade - Slowing down gorge, fade, and onos attack rates while doing some damage. Slows down organized pushes.

IeptBarakat

SUPER_SARS wrote: »

current1y wrote: »

SUPER_SARS wrote: »

A direct hit with a pulse nade needs to go back up to 120 damage

What does it do? I was getting 99 damage sometimes with direct hits. It seemed inconsistent. Sometimes I would do 60ish other times it would be a 99 hit.

Well its the proximity detonator that was put in the pulse nades. From what I remember sewlek put that in so more of them would "hit" and blow up instead of missing everything and blow up in the background. Right now you usually do about 60 damage on most stuff due to the proximity detonator, before it was there if you landed a direct it it would do 120. It was awesome for fades. Land a direct hit when they were entering the room then cya.

Could a delayed detonation fix this? Sure it would minimalize the effect if you just clip the edge of the alien, but a well placed shot should still give the maximum amount of damage.

SUPER_SARS

Cluster grenades are hilariously useful against clogs/hydra forts

aeroripper

SUPER_SARS wrote: »

Cluster grenades are hilariously useful against clogs/hydra forts

This is true as well, although, in the early game is where cluster grenades are most useful but rarely seen.

draktok

I wish comms researched it more, since clusters are incredibly good (better than glaunchers) at clearing gorge forts, and pretty good at killing that random skulk in a vent earlier on. Once they put on some biomass and carapace, meh.

aeroripper

Made a small mod:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204003592&searchtext=

Benson

Maybe Nades unlock for free when the Arms Lab is built?

I think Pulse nades would be much more usefull if they reduced movement and atack speed (not that much)

Jekt

Halve the time it takes to throw and my main grenade gripe is dealt with.

Mestaritonttu

Btw, what's the best way to throw cluster grenades? Or other nades?

Like killing a gorge fort, do you toss it directly into something, or in the middle of stuff, or have it detonate in the air even maybe possibly?

I've never really experimented much with them.

Desther

Cluster and gas grenades are really powerful, I don't think the need changing other than being droppable when you die and make them work as suicide nades (always explode after pin is pulled even if you die)

Freeker

I only use gas nade atm. Would like to see pulse being more useful. Something like:
-pulse grenade sap xx energy points.
-pulse grenade reduce lifeform celerity from x% during y sec.

It's not killing lifeform but it could be used to trap lerk/fade/onos by slowing them down or running out of energy.

Dictator93

IMO, are you using grenades in the right manner as of area denial and or corner clearing?

I am pretty sure they are not meant to be used in CQC by design.

clankill3r

I also would like to see more effect on the pulse grenade. I think it should drain 75% of the energy over time.
And a left hand throw would be awesome where you could even keep firing your gun.

ns2isgood

If anything nerf them or put a cooldown on how fast they can be bought. You ever see a commander put an amory outside a hive and they have nades? It's just an endless stream of grenades coming in, it's to the point where it becomes comical. It's extremely annoying and the way they destroy gorge defenses so effortlessly is absurd. It requires no skill.

RaZDaZ

Grenades are awesome, they spice up the gameplay of marine side and are really unique but I rarely use them outside of having high res income due to what other people have said already. I'd love to use a nade vs a fade midfight but it's just not feasible and practical enough, they're cheap but because they can't be picked up makes it an investment if you don't use them quickly enough. Would be nice to just buy some nades at base and keep them when you need them instead of using them at any opportunity because of that risk of losing them permanently from dying. At least welders at 3 res each can be recycled and used by a teammate, why can't nades?

BeigeAlert

I think the movement also needs to be worked on. So many times I've been directly in front of a vent, I toss a cluster grenade in, and it bounces right back out and hurts me. Also, a crosshair wouldn't hurt... it's very difficult to tell where it's going to go right now.