Primary strategy if you have a team that can shoot skulks. If you don't, well... when the first lerk is out, it's game over. And that's about 2:45ish right now?
So... all of the above or reduce surrender time to 5:00 again :-) .
In my opinion lowering it to 15 would severely handicap the Aliens while doing virtually nothing to hinder Marines. Especially in any scenario where the teams are evenly matched.
Skulks are already at a disadvantage against the basic Marine, if they can aim at all I'm pretty much restricted to biting on Extractors while I wait for enough PRES to evolve. In every game as an Alien there are times where I'm left waiting for that extra 3-4 PRES.
Lerks are also easy enough for Marines to kill if they can aim at all. Once shotguns are up Lerks are at a severe disadvantage since they can be one shot. At that point they are pretty much restricted to spiking from afar (and even then they can be driven off or killed quickly if that shotgun Marine uses his pistol)
Gorges would also be at a strong disadvantage in early game. 15 PRES minus 8 to evolve leaves 7 PRES... not even enough to get your 3 hydras up. If they changed it to 15 I would never go Gorge again (unless it was via an egg) and I probably wouldn't Lerk anymore if Shotguns were always up first - So just more time wasted as a Skulk waiting for the PRES to evolve to a Fade or Onos.
Meanwhile as a Marine it would do nothing to me. Even with my semi-poor aim I can do well enough with the basic rifle that I always wait until Jetpacks are up before buying something else. Other than the occasional Mine, Grenade, or Welder, I rarely spend PRES as a Marine. I'm the guy sitting with 60-70 PRES when Jetpacks are researched. - Plus at that point I can buy another Jetpack after dying and recover my dropped weapon a good 3 out of 4 times, which is an extra 15-25 PRES saved...
I don't understand this desire from certain people to nerf Aliens into the ground. Marines are already at a HUGE advantage early game, especially if any of them rush the resource points outside the Alien hive. I see far too many games where 3-4 Marines can rush in and deny a resource point next to the hive, and it often takes either a coordinated Skulk rush (leaving the rest of the map open for Marines to take) or a couple of Lerks to clear them out.
IMO, 20 is fine. They just need to make tunnels slightly more expensive - say 8 apiece (to delay their use) but more durable. Just had a game last week in Tram - started in shipping and immediately dropped a tunnel to server. Was constantly reinforced by skulks from home base. Held off a marine push from marines who had started in Warehouse. Eventually won.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
Reducing it to 15 would really rape the creative marine comm in comp play, and hell, in pub play to some extent too.
as cpt000 said, if you want to reduce the money EVERYONE has so that one structure cannot be placed immediately twice, why not increase the cost of that onething? It's just silley.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@auron2
Because, as stated above, price drops were done specifically to lessen the negative impact / frustration that comes from only playing 1 higher lifeform per round, or worse waiting a very long time to do so.
Cheaper lifeform / weapon costs mean more of them, but also more fun/less waiting. Such items are already balanced to not be impactful as RTS "heros" from the get go, thanks to 2 separate resource systems allowing a higher frequency of them.. so then you might as well make it more "fun" and allow more comebacks by making it more than just the first /only purchase..
Which just leaves what this thread sought out to discuss: Starting purchasing abilities / timings.
Cheaper lifeform / weapon costs mean more of them, but also more fun/less waiting.
It'd be more fun if you had to wait longer but got something powerful out of it.
Awful comparison, I'd rather save my pennies and buy a 780 than get 2 580s over a few months.
What if... starting pres for aliens was reduced to 15pres, and marine extractor cost is increased to say 15tres? In general, marine tech would be delayed a bit to compensate for later lifeform timings, but it might also force marines to play a bit more defensive in order to see a good return on investment for their RTs, especially during the fragile early game.
I know 15tres extractors was tried once during the bt mod testing period, but I'm not sure how that particular change was evaluated at the time. In any case, it would be something I'd like to try again actually.
It'd be more fun if you had to wait longer but got something powerful out of it.
We tried that - it sucked.
It sucked because the high frequency of powerful units due to two resource systems meant that it was typically "GG" when they came about..(post launch Oni / fadeballs etc) so the negatives were:
Longer wait times
Steeper learning curve due to less time available to play units
Unforgiving gameplay
Less comebacks
You cannot have "powerful" units like the ns1 fade as long as there are two separate resource systems allowing for a higher frequency of said units.
Therefore, unless you completely redo the resource model you might as well adopt the "higher frequency, less impactful unit" method by alleviating those listed downsides.
Now.. the question of timings and when you should get them is still a separate and relevant discussion
@radimax
Ugh.. why the arbitrary amount of 15? Why not proportionally backed up 16?
It'd be more fun if you had to wait longer but got something powerful out of it.
due to two resource systems
You cannot have "powerful" units like the ns1 fade as long as there are two separate resource systems allowing for a higher frequency of said units.
Yes, we seem to have identified the problem. Alien tres is once again ruining the game. Hell if they aren't willing to just remove it all together (let's face it it won't happen). Just stop the ability to drop life form eggs except gorge. Bam, only one resource system for life forms, I fixed the game and made it fun.
Therefore, unless you completely redo the resource model you might as well adopt the "higher frequency, less impactful unit" method by alleviating those listed downsides.
I don't get it. What does having 2 resources have to do with anything? Are we talking about dropping eggs? Because I see that in about zero of the pub games nowadays. I've done it in some games where we're just waiting for it to end and marines are in the last room, but it's not anywhere near a viable strategy when the game is close. Other things like LF upgrades or chamber upgrades are WAY more important on pubs than dropping eggs IMO. Or are we talking about something else?
I don't get it. What does having 2 resources have to do with anything? Are we talking about dropping eggs? Because I see that in about zero of the pub games nowadays. I've done it in some games where we're just waiting for it to end and marines are in the last room, but it's not anywhere near a viable strategy when the game is close. Other things like LF upgrades or chamber upgrades are WAY more important on pubs than dropping eggs IMO. Or are we talking about something else?
I believe that we're talking about eggs yes. But everything else the alien tres system does is dumb too.
@radimax Ugh.. why the arbitrary amount of 15? Why not proportionally backed up 16?
i dont know why we had 15 in the first place? but i came in and coincidentally saw a post about it so i shared the information with the people discussing the matter so they could come in and try for them selves instead of hypothetically talk about it. The longer waithing times however is compensated by faster spawn-in times than the 999999 seconds of doom that makes you wanna kill yourself so now there is more action going on at the field and not 10 boring minutes of watching eggs/ips stationary in base while respawning and waiting around.
(jetpacks can be rushed and counter to the lerk, but its a high risk/reward from it so one must be careful)
Comments
So... all of the above or reduce surrender time to 5:00 again :-) .
Skulks are already at a disadvantage against the basic Marine, if they can aim at all I'm pretty much restricted to biting on Extractors while I wait for enough PRES to evolve. In every game as an Alien there are times where I'm left waiting for that extra 3-4 PRES.
Lerks are also easy enough for Marines to kill if they can aim at all. Once shotguns are up Lerks are at a severe disadvantage since they can be one shot. At that point they are pretty much restricted to spiking from afar (and even then they can be driven off or killed quickly if that shotgun Marine uses his pistol)
Gorges would also be at a strong disadvantage in early game. 15 PRES minus 8 to evolve leaves 7 PRES... not even enough to get your 3 hydras up. If they changed it to 15 I would never go Gorge again (unless it was via an egg) and I probably wouldn't Lerk anymore if Shotguns were always up first - So just more time wasted as a Skulk waiting for the PRES to evolve to a Fade or Onos.
Meanwhile as a Marine it would do nothing to me. Even with my semi-poor aim I can do well enough with the basic rifle that I always wait until Jetpacks are up before buying something else. Other than the occasional Mine, Grenade, or Welder, I rarely spend PRES as a Marine. I'm the guy sitting with 60-70 PRES when Jetpacks are researched. - Plus at that point I can buy another Jetpack after dying and recover my dropped weapon a good 3 out of 4 times, which is an extra 15-25 PRES saved...
I don't understand this desire from certain people to nerf Aliens into the ground. Marines are already at a HUGE advantage early game, especially if any of them rush the resource points outside the Alien hive. I see far too many games where 3-4 Marines can rush in and deny a resource point next to the hive, and it often takes either a coordinated Skulk rush (leaving the rest of the map open for Marines to take) or a couple of Lerks to clear them out.
as cpt000 said, if you want to reduce the money EVERYONE has so that one structure cannot be placed immediately twice, why not increase the cost of that onething? It's just silley.
Because, as stated above, price drops were done specifically to lessen the negative impact / frustration that comes from only playing 1 higher lifeform per round, or worse waiting a very long time to do so.
Cheaper lifeform / weapon costs mean more of them, but also more fun/less waiting. Such items are already balanced to not be impactful as RTS "heros" from the get go, thanks to 2 separate resource systems allowing a higher frequency of them.. so then you might as well make it more "fun" and allow more comebacks by making it more than just the first /only purchase..
Which just leaves what this thread sought out to discuss: Starting purchasing abilities / timings.
It'd be more fun if you had to wait longer but got something powerful out of it.
Awful comparison, I'd rather save my pennies and buy a 780 than get 2 580s over a few months.
I know 15tres extractors was tried once during the bt mod testing period, but I'm not sure how that particular change was evaluated at the time. In any case, it would be something I'd like to try again actually.
Oh god no.
It sucked because the high frequency of powerful units due to two resource systems meant that it was typically "GG" when they came about..(post launch Oni / fadeballs etc) so the negatives were:
You cannot have "powerful" units like the ns1 fade as long as there are two separate resource systems allowing for a higher frequency of said units.
Therefore, unless you completely redo the resource model you might as well adopt the "higher frequency, less impactful unit" method by alleviating those listed downsides.
Now.. the question of timings and when you should get them is still a separate and relevant discussion
@radimax
Ugh.. why the arbitrary amount of 15? Why not proportionally backed up 16?
EDIT: Can we please just do this. It's worth it.
I believe that we're talking about eggs yes. But everything else the alien tres system does is dumb too.
i dont know why we had 15 in the first place? but i came in and coincidentally saw a post about it so i shared the information with the people discussing the matter so they could come in and try for them selves instead of hypothetically talk about it. The longer waithing times however is compensated by faster spawn-in times than the 999999 seconds of doom that makes you wanna kill yourself so now there is more action going on at the field and not 10 boring minutes of watching eggs/ips stationary in base while respawning and waiting around.
(jetpacks can be rushed and counter to the lerk, but its a high risk/reward from it so one must be careful)