The idea that the game has to end with some "go kill the hive"minigame is really rather masturbatory. I see nothing wrong with ending the game once the other team surrenders.
But you don't expect to get rewarded so in chess or fencing - in NS2, you expect to be able to use the overwhelming advantage you've earned to destroy sh*t!
What is or isn't expected is up to the individual players. A chess player may also argue that he wants to checkmate, but most often he does not - why?
Because a true sportsman finds joy only in the struggle and in the moment he outsmarts his adversary. Once the moment is gone, once one side loses means for further opposition, the joy is gone also. It's true that some players are stubborn and play to the end, but such game is only similar to parking your car - you must be careful not to bump into anything, but other than the vigilance required, it's intellectually a trivial task.
Similarly, a true NS2 player should IMO seek joy in the struggle of as balanced teams as possible. Demolishing a deserted base of a hive is a menial work suitable for a ham-fisted lumberjack, not a task for a fighter or commander.
And if you don't know why you won or lost, you probably did not pay attention, and so instead of seeking cheap thrill of easy victories, you should maybe work on your ingame awareness a bit more. In every sport, an opponent sometimes walks away from a game without clear reasons. Sometimes he loses the will to fight, sometimes he is just disappointed with himself, I even saw guys who swept the pieces away angrily, and even added insults. Pity for them, for they made few friends, as did those who reveled in their victories too much and bloated over them. A bit of empathy, even a few words of encouragement are signs of a good sportsman, and I have met players who I have lost to as well as won over during the years, but thing remained - I was always happy to meet them over the board, and I knew the feeling was mutual.
What is or isn't expected is up to the individual players. A chess player may also argue that he wants to checkmate, but most often he does not - why?
Because a true sportsman finds...
-interrupt- BECAUSE that's what you've grown to expect from Natural-Selection for over 10 years now, concede is a pretty recent thing. Sure there was F4 before, but F4 has never commonly ended games.
And if you don't know why you won or lost, you probably did not pay attention, and so instead of seeking cheap thrill of easy victories
I'm not seeking easy victories, I'm seeking better mechanics. Don't read so much into it.
Edit: Love how AceDauntless agrees with your post even tho he shamelessly promoted Palagis posts about reasons to join the better team even if it means a stacked and horribly unfair game. Dat hypocrisy.
Edit: Love how AceDauntless agrees with your post even tho he shamelessly promoted Palagis posts about reasons to join the better team even if it means a stacked and horribly unfair game. Dat hypocrisy.
Love how mad you still are about that. Also way to miss both points. NT tho
Edit: Love how AceDauntless agrees with your post even tho he shamelessly promoted Palagis posts about reasons to join the better team even if it means a stacked and horribly unfair game. Dat hypocrisy.
Love how mad you still are about that. Also way to miss both points. NT tho
Inc I'm not mad tho I'm just....
So what I shouldn't mention it? You've no objection to it?
Edit: Love how AceDauntless agrees with your post even tho he shamelessly promoted Palagis posts about reasons to join the better team even if it means a stacked and horribly unfair game. Dat hypocrisy.
Love how mad you still are about that. Also way to miss both points. NT tho
Inc I'm not mad tho I'm just....
So what I shouldn't mention it? You've no objection to it?
First off, It's a completely different issue, and not at all relevant to the issues at hand. I'm just saying their is no reason to continue a lost game. Having some stupid lol look u won congrats punch the defenless guy is a waste of everyones time.
My reasons for "stacking" (its not) are irrelevant to this completely, and I (and several other players) thoroughly explained ourselves in that thread. Cool yourself.
Edit: Love how AceDauntless agrees with your post even tho he shamelessly promoted Palagis posts about reasons to join the better team even if it means a stacked and horribly unfair game. Dat hypocrisy.
Love how mad you still are about that. Also way to miss both points. NT tho
Inc I'm not mad tho I'm just....
So what I shouldn't mention it? You've no objection to it?
First off, It's a completely different issue, and not at all relevant to the issues at hand. I'm just saying their is no reason to continue a lost game. Having some stupid lol look u won congrats punch the defenless guy is a waste of everyones time.
My reasons for "stacking" (its not) are irrelevant to this completely, and I (and several other players) thoroughly explained ourselves in that thread. Cool yourself.
And nobody has wanted such a cheap victory but instead a fun game to end the game with.
I don't care what you think is irrelevant to this thread, I will point out your hypocrisy if I bloody well feel like.
Also if you feel the need to call me mad in every post maybe set your gpu fan away from your face because my text should not be radiating heat.
Edit: Love how AceDauntless agrees with your post even tho he shamelessly promoted Palagis posts about reasons to join the better team even if it means a stacked and horribly unfair game. Dat hypocrisy.
Love how mad you still are about that. Also way to miss both points. NT tho
Inc I'm not mad tho I'm just....
So what I shouldn't mention it? You've no objection to it?
First off, It's a completely different issue, and not at all relevant to the issues at hand. I'm just saying their is no reason to continue a lost game. Having some stupid lol look u won congrats punch the defenless guy is a waste of everyones time.
My reasons for "stacking" (its not) are irrelevant to this completely, and I (and several other players) thoroughly explained ourselves in that thread. Cool yourself.
And nobody has wanted such a cheap victory but instead a fun game to end the game with.
I don't care what you think is irrelevant to this thread, I will point out your hypocrisy if I bloody well feel like.
Also if you feel the need to call me mad in every post maybe set your gpu fan away from your face because my text should not be radiating heat.
I know you will point it out. Doesn't make you any less wrong. Stop derailing the thread.
The idea that the game has to end with some "go kill the hive"minigame is really rather masturbatory. I see nothing wrong with ending the game once the other team surrenders.
Masturbation = Awesome. I see nothing wrong with it!
Because a true sportsman finds joy only in the struggle and in the moment he outsmarts his adversary. Once the moment is gone, once one side loses means for further opposition, the joy is gone also.
Cannot disagree with you more.
A good sportsman is defined by abiding by the rules, not being upset, congratulating one another afterwards, and thoroughly enjoying the game at hand in a civil manner so as to provide an incentive for your opponent to wish to play with you again.
Being satiated by an anticlimactic moment is not a quality of a good sportsman.
There's some rather large psychological differences too..
A king piece being gently tipped over is a far cry from the explosions, fireworks, and the last gruesome moments when the enemy symbolically fixes their bayonets in preparation for your siege.
I enjoy losing as much as I enjoy winning. However if I want to concede I will. I'm a 12 year NS veteran, and I can make that decision. forcing a game to concede or not concede is wrong. In this case it's simple. Democracy rules.
btw - the flames are quite amusing. Especially the one about removing the gpu fan away from ones face. lol.
You guys are creative
Being satiated by an anticlimactic moment is not a quality of a good sportsman.
Sports aren't about hitting a "climax," they're about determining a winner and a loser. Once that has been decided and acknowledged, there is no longer a need to continue playing. In fact, a winning side purposefully running up the score higher and refusing to accept a surrender on the part of their opponent is bad sportsmanship.
Look at basketball - if the winning team is in possession of the ball as time is running out, they do not continue to take shots. They simply dribble it out. Sure, it would be more "climactic" to make a basket as time expires, but when you've already won such behavior is unsportsmanlike.
In baseball the winning team will not bat in the bottom of the ninth. They have already won, there is no need for them to carry out the game any longer and try to win by more points.
If the losing side has conceded that they have lost, any further action by the winning team is poor sportsmanship. A good sportsman would accept the surrender and move on to the next game.
Edit: Love how AceDauntless agrees with your post even tho he shamelessly promoted Palagis posts about reasons to join the better team even if it means a stacked and horribly unfair game. Dat hypocrisy.
Love how mad you still are about that. Also way to miss both points. NT tho
Inc I'm not mad tho I'm just....
So what I shouldn't mention it? You've no objection to it?
First off, It's a completely different issue, and not at all relevant to the issues at hand. I'm just saying their is no reason to continue a lost game. Having some stupid lol look u won congrats punch the defenless guy is a waste of everyones time.
My reasons for "stacking" (its not) are irrelevant to this completely, and I (and several other players) thoroughly explained ourselves in that thread. Cool yourself.
You say that it's masturbatory (which I will assume you were using the definition of 'excessively self-absorbed or self-indulgent') to end the game with a kill the hive minigame. Yet you (in another thread I haven't read) apparently admit to purposefully joining the better team so it's quite easy to theorize that you always expect the other team to lose especially combined with your choice of words "once the other team surrenders" in a previous post in this thread.
But then in this post you call an alternative concede function that adds sixty seconds to a round "a waste of everyones time".
So, to me at least, the comments made by Mestaritonttu were quite relevant because I like to know who I should take seriously and who I should take with a grain of salt.
Edit: Love how AceDauntless agrees with your post even tho he shamelessly promoted Palagis posts about reasons to join the better team even if it means a stacked and horribly unfair game. Dat hypocrisy.
Love how mad you still are about that. Also way to miss both points. NT tho
Inc I'm not mad tho I'm just....
So what I shouldn't mention it? You've no objection to it?
First off, It's a completely different issue, and not at all relevant to the issues at hand. I'm just saying their is no reason to continue a lost game. Having some stupid lol look u won congrats punch the defenless guy is a waste of everyones time.
My reasons for "stacking" (its not) are irrelevant to this completely, and I (and several other players) thoroughly explained ourselves in that thread. Cool yourself.
You say that it's masturbatory (which I will assume you were using the definition of 'excessively self-absorbed or self-indulgent') to end the game with a kill the hive minigame. Yet you (in another thread I haven't read) apparently admit to purposefully joining the better team so it's quite easy to theorize that you always expect the other team to lose especially combined with your choice of words "once the other team surrenders" in a previous post in this thread.
But then in this post you call an alternative concede function that adds sixty seconds to a round "a waste of everyones time".
So, to me at least, the comments made by Mestaritonttu were quite relevant because I like to know who I should take seriously and who I should take with a grain of salt.
Being satiated by an anticlimactic moment is not a quality of a good sportsman.
Sports aren't about hitting a "climax," they're about determining a winner and a loser.
That quote reminds me of those fathers who take their son's participation in sports far too seriously. hehe Sports are about enjoying the game... any corny sports movie will back me up on this (sometimes in a montage if you're lucky)
So much so, in fact, that the phrase "its not about winning or losing" is tossed about frequently as a reminder that that's not what sports are about..
So excuse me if i properly enjoy parts of the game, like the climactic siege at the end.
p.s. i love how people talk about proper sportsmanship character qualities, while simultaneously defending a losing player's action of stepping out of a game because they didn't want to experience the end of a lost round. Imagine how IRL sports would go if the other team did this, they'd come off as tantruming children and would be boo'd / ridiculed.
As a new player I don't particulary mind the concede function, it's good to have when the enemy is "just farming kills" as I overheard someone saying the other day. That is the times I feel abused as a player. However, I'd prefer if more games came to a closure, I never get closure on NS2 these days.
My gripe is that the better players (not sure how good they are) concede ridiculously early. Maybe I as a new player fail to see that we are loosing , I wouldn't know what to look for, but if the map looks even remotely green (aliens forever) I want to keep trying to win. I get satisfaction from not giving up and being a good sport and letting them have their win for once. Every game for days now are conceded when I still feel we can win. I have seen it happen twice in 20 hours of playtime so it's not that rare, and if we allways conceede, a cool comback can NEVER happen
I concede only to avoid being trashtalked, i'd prefer playing it out. if it's as dire as the team thinks it is, then it should be over quickly , no?
I come from a lifetime of halo, so i'm used to staying until the end, you are penalized for quitting. But this has taught me to enjoy games win or loose, I enjoy the teamplay and the individual achievement. Even if teamplay was bad and we loose, there is still a lesson in that.
(though with NS2 games taking forever, i'd rather have concede option than not, I only have a few hours to play each day) I wish games were 1/3rd the length less really, hunching over the computer is unhealthy enough at 20 minute games, let alone an hour long one with no break.
Being satiated by an anticlimactic moment is not a quality of a good sportsman.
Sports aren't about hitting a "climax," they're about determining a winner and a loser.
That quote reminds me of those fathers who take their son's participation in sports far too seriously. hehe Sports are about enjoying the game... any corny sports movie will back me up on this (sometimes in a montage if you're lucky)
So much so, in fact, that the phrase "its not about winning or losing" is tossed about frequently as a reminder that that's not what sports are about..
So excuse me if i properly enjoy parts of the game, like the climactic siege at the end.
p.s. i love how people talk about proper sportsmanship character qualities, while simultaneously defending a losing player's action of stepping out of a game because they didn't want to experience the end of a lost round. Imagine how IRL sports would go if the other team did this, they'd come off as tantruming children and would be boo'd / ridiculed.
This whole "sportsmanship" thing is an argument of semantics. Besides, it's a poor analogy to compare NS2 to sports for a couple of reasons.
1. NS2 is a zero-sum game. As in, the team that wins the early game is more likely to win the mid-game, because they have more resources and become more likely to win future engagements. The longer the game goes on, the less likely a comeback becomes, until we reach a point where it is essentially impossible (ie the "late-game turtle" that you seem to enjoy). In basketball, if a team is down by 5 with 20 seconds left in the game it is very unlikely that they will win but it is still possible (see: 2013 NBA Finals), so it makes sense to continue playing. It isn't like they lower the basket for the winning team to make comebacks more difficult. In NS2 a team that is cornered in their base is not capable of winning. They've fallen too far behind.
2. NS2 has no time limit. It is possible for a sports team to reach a point where a comeback is pretty much impossible: a soccer team down by 3 goals with one minute to go in the game has pretty much a 0% chance of winning. However, because there's a time limit they only have so much more to play, and by definition a game can only be lost with very little time remaining. So there will be very little of the game the losing side will be required to play when they have no chance of winning.
It's a much better analogy to compare NS2 to chess, a zero-sum game without a time limit. And at the highest level, chess always ends with a surrender. They don't force the guy to keep playing until he is mated if he recognizes he can't win.
Forgot how passionate people are in these forums with their opinions, but I thought I'd add the conversation that in Wyzcrack's WINORLOSE mode, he's added a 5 second penalty every time a surrendered player is killed by the opposing team. This adds coordination to final push and an avoidance of killing the lifeforms to pad final K:D. Darkscythe records our Captain's Games weekly
(http://www.twitch.tv/koizuki/), and you can see it in action.
Even better, it's created a little mini game where the team that has conceded tries to be a body shield for the command structure, shortening the time and being a nuisance. It's silly in words, but for our little community, it's so much more fun.
I'd like to say that each player is different. I personally don't perceive the thought of this or any game as simply a mechanism of winning/losing. I gladly accept defeat and joyfully battle to the end when the other team has earned it. I also concede when my team has collectively decided there isn't a good chance of turnaround and we know it will take time for the final blow.
Some of you are different. That's the greatness of individual communities in any online game. Enforcing your viewpoint and/or demeaning any contrary one isn't helpful to this discussion, or to the community as a whole. I know internet forum culture demands people accept that everyone is an asshole, but remember that doesn't have to be your defining trait.
I don't like surrender, so I have found a community that does something more fitting to my play style. Many of you want to move on to the next match as soon as a game is more or less "decided". You've found similar communities.
Whatever UWE does collectively can be altered by mods, so find one that works for you.
Being satiated by an anticlimactic moment is not a quality of a good sportsman.
Sports aren't about hitting a "climax," they're about determining a winner and a loser.
That quote reminds me of those fathers who take their son's participation in sports far too seriously. hehe Sports are about enjoying the game... any corny sports movie will back me up on this (sometimes in a montage if you're lucky)
So much so, in fact, that the phrase "its not about winning or losing" is tossed about frequently as a reminder that that's not what sports are about..
So excuse me if i properly enjoy parts of the game, like the climactic siege at the end.
p.s. i love how people talk about proper sportsmanship character qualities, while simultaneously defending a losing player's action of stepping out of a game because they didn't want to experience the end of a lost round. Imagine how IRL sports would go if the other team did this, they'd come off as tantruming children and would be boo'd / ridiculed.
This whole "sportsmanship" thing is an argument of semantics. Besides, it's a poor analogy to compare NS2 to sports for a couple of reasons.
1. NS2 is a zero-sum game. In NS2 a team that is cornered in their base is not capable of winning.
Sure they are. Ninjaphases and ninjatunnels and whatnots.
It's a much better analogy to compare NS2 to chess, a zero-sum game without a time limit. And at the highest level, chess always ends with a surrender. They don't force the guy to keep playing until he is mated if he recognizes he can't win.
Or maybe lets not make an analogy at all, because I don't think anyone is here to force someone to play against unwinnable odds, but to make the sometimes anti-climactic concede into something better.
But why bother here anymore, we'll have a new monthly concede thread soon enough.
Comments
Be concise, mate...
-interrupt- BECAUSE that's what you've grown to expect from Natural-Selection for over 10 years now, concede is a pretty recent thing. Sure there was F4 before, but F4 has never commonly ended games.
I'm not seeking easy victories, I'm seeking better mechanics. Don't read so much into it.
Edit: Love how AceDauntless agrees with your post even tho he shamelessly promoted Palagis posts about reasons to join the better team even if it means a stacked and horribly unfair game. Dat hypocrisy.
Love how mad you still are about that. Also way to miss both points. NT tho
So what I shouldn't mention it? You've no objection to it?
Edit: You're stupid.
Inc I'm not stupid tho I'm just...
First off, It's a completely different issue, and not at all relevant to the issues at hand. I'm just saying their is no reason to continue a lost game. Having some stupid lol look u won congrats punch the defenless guy is a waste of everyones time.
My reasons for "stacking" (its not) are irrelevant to this completely, and I (and several other players) thoroughly explained ourselves in that thread. Cool yourself.
And nobody has wanted such a cheap victory but instead a fun game to end the game with.
I don't care what you think is irrelevant to this thread, I will point out your hypocrisy if I bloody well feel like.
Also if you feel the need to call me mad in every post maybe set your gpu fan away from your face because my text should not be radiating heat.
I know you will point it out. Doesn't make you any less wrong. Stop derailing the thread.
Masturbation = Awesome. I see nothing wrong with it!
A good sportsman is defined by abiding by the rules, not being upset, congratulating one another afterwards, and thoroughly enjoying the game at hand in a civil manner so as to provide an incentive for your opponent to wish to play with you again.
Being satiated by an anticlimactic moment is not a quality of a good sportsman.
There's some rather large psychological differences too..
A king piece being gently tipped over is a far cry from the explosions, fireworks, and the last gruesome moments when the enemy symbolically fixes their bayonets in preparation for your siege.
btw - the flames are quite amusing. Especially the one about removing the gpu fan away from ones face. lol.
You guys are creative
Sports aren't about hitting a "climax," they're about determining a winner and a loser. Once that has been decided and acknowledged, there is no longer a need to continue playing. In fact, a winning side purposefully running up the score higher and refusing to accept a surrender on the part of their opponent is bad sportsmanship.
Look at basketball - if the winning team is in possession of the ball as time is running out, they do not continue to take shots. They simply dribble it out. Sure, it would be more "climactic" to make a basket as time expires, but when you've already won such behavior is unsportsmanlike.
In baseball the winning team will not bat in the bottom of the ninth. They have already won, there is no need for them to carry out the game any longer and try to win by more points.
If the losing side has conceded that they have lost, any further action by the winning team is poor sportsmanship. A good sportsman would accept the surrender and move on to the next game.
You say that it's masturbatory (which I will assume you were using the definition of 'excessively self-absorbed or self-indulgent') to end the game with a kill the hive minigame. Yet you (in another thread I haven't read) apparently admit to purposefully joining the better team so it's quite easy to theorize that you always expect the other team to lose especially combined with your choice of words "once the other team surrenders" in a previous post in this thread.
But then in this post you call an alternative concede function that adds sixty seconds to a round "a waste of everyones time".
So, to me at least, the comments made by Mestaritonttu were quite relevant because I like to know who I should take seriously and who I should take with a grain of salt.
I'm not explaining my position again.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/133019/the-problem-with-this-game-is-teams-are-never-balanced/p3
Its irrelevant.
I spend 99% of my playing time on the same server with regulars so my old brain sometimes seems to think that all servers are similar in nature.
Sports are about enjoying the game... any corny sports movie will back me up on this (sometimes in a montage if you're lucky)
So much so, in fact, that the phrase "its not about winning or losing" is tossed about frequently as a reminder that that's not what sports are about..
So excuse me if i properly enjoy parts of the game, like the climactic siege at the end.
p.s. i love how people talk about proper sportsmanship character qualities, while simultaneously defending a losing player's action of stepping out of a game because they didn't want to experience the end of a lost round. Imagine how IRL sports would go if the other team did this, they'd come off as tantruming children and would be boo'd / ridiculed.
My gripe is that the better players (not sure how good they are) concede ridiculously early. Maybe I as a new player fail to see that we are loosing , I wouldn't know what to look for, but if the map looks even remotely green (aliens forever) I want to keep trying to win. I get satisfaction from not giving up and being a good sport and letting them have their win for once. Every game for days now are conceded when I still feel we can win. I have seen it happen twice in 20 hours of playtime so it's not that rare, and if we allways conceede, a cool comback can NEVER happen
I concede only to avoid being trashtalked, i'd prefer playing it out. if it's as dire as the team thinks it is, then it should be over quickly , no?
I come from a lifetime of halo, so i'm used to staying until the end, you are penalized for quitting. But this has taught me to enjoy games win or loose, I enjoy the teamplay and the individual achievement. Even if teamplay was bad and we loose, there is still a lesson in that.
(though with NS2 games taking forever, i'd rather have concede option than not, I only have a few hours to play each day) I wish games were 1/3rd the length less really, hunching over the computer is unhealthy enough at 20 minute games, let alone an hour long one with no break.
This whole "sportsmanship" thing is an argument of semantics. Besides, it's a poor analogy to compare NS2 to sports for a couple of reasons.
1. NS2 is a zero-sum game. As in, the team that wins the early game is more likely to win the mid-game, because they have more resources and become more likely to win future engagements. The longer the game goes on, the less likely a comeback becomes, until we reach a point where it is essentially impossible (ie the "late-game turtle" that you seem to enjoy). In basketball, if a team is down by 5 with 20 seconds left in the game it is very unlikely that they will win but it is still possible (see: 2013 NBA Finals), so it makes sense to continue playing. It isn't like they lower the basket for the winning team to make comebacks more difficult. In NS2 a team that is cornered in their base is not capable of winning. They've fallen too far behind.
2. NS2 has no time limit. It is possible for a sports team to reach a point where a comeback is pretty much impossible: a soccer team down by 3 goals with one minute to go in the game has pretty much a 0% chance of winning. However, because there's a time limit they only have so much more to play, and by definition a game can only be lost with very little time remaining. So there will be very little of the game the losing side will be required to play when they have no chance of winning.
It's a much better analogy to compare NS2 to chess, a zero-sum game without a time limit. And at the highest level, chess always ends with a surrender. They don't force the guy to keep playing until he is mated if he recognizes he can't win.
(http://www.twitch.tv/koizuki/), and you can see it in action.
Even better, it's created a little mini game where the team that has conceded tries to be a body shield for the command structure, shortening the time and being a nuisance. It's silly in words, but for our little community, it's so much more fun.
I'd like to say that each player is different. I personally don't perceive the thought of this or any game as simply a mechanism of winning/losing. I gladly accept defeat and joyfully battle to the end when the other team has earned it. I also concede when my team has collectively decided there isn't a good chance of turnaround and we know it will take time for the final blow.
Some of you are different. That's the greatness of individual communities in any online game. Enforcing your viewpoint and/or demeaning any contrary one isn't helpful to this discussion, or to the community as a whole. I know internet forum culture demands people accept that everyone is an asshole, but remember that doesn't have to be your defining trait.
I don't like surrender, so I have found a community that does something more fitting to my play style. Many of you want to move on to the next match as soon as a game is more or less "decided". You've found similar communities.
Whatever UWE does collectively can be altered by mods, so find one that works for you.
Sure they are. Ninjaphases and ninjatunnels and whatnots.
Nah. I'm sure there's tons of examples from sports where one team is just simply getting dominated for a long time.
Or maybe lets not make an analogy at all, because I don't think anyone is here to force someone to play against unwinnable odds, but to make the sometimes anti-climactic concede into something better.
But why bother here anymore, we'll have a new monthly concede thread soon enough.