Serious discussion about Babblers (no babbling)
Wingflier
Join Date: 2013-03-07 Member: 183769Members
Join Date: 2013-03-07 Member: 183769Members
After the (somewhat) recent changes to the Babblers, making them an researchable tech (part of the Gorge package), and therefore a little harder to obtain/more "techy", how does everybody feel about them?
Are they any good at combat now or are they still just glorified meatshields for 3 Rez? Personally I never see them and it's kind of sad because I think their combat ability should at least be useful in some situations.
I think we're past the point now of people fearing a 5 Gorge + Babblers and Bilebomb spam because it would easily be countered (with the new grenades or just by rushing advanced weapons).
Are the Babblers useful now? Not useful? What's the consensus?
Are they any good at combat now or are they still just glorified meatshields for 3 Rez? Personally I never see them and it's kind of sad because I think their combat ability should at least be useful in some situations.
I think we're past the point now of people fearing a 5 Gorge + Babblers and Bilebomb spam because it would easily be countered (with the new grenades or just by rushing advanced weapons).
Are the Babblers useful now? Not useful? What's the consensus?
Comments
Babblers were a fantastic early game tool for defense, and to harass Marine bases. I used to regularly go Gorge early game and run around leaving Babblers on Extractors to draw Marine attention (and thus lessen the Marine push elsewhere) I found them extremely useful.
Ever since they locked Babblers behind research, I personally find early game Gorge to be a waste of res. Most of the time I manage to get my hydras and clogs up, then I get wiped out by a group of 2-3 Marines I'm helpless against. = Hydras dead, clogs destroyed, and all res lost... not fun at all.
Before I could run away and survive with the Babblers as armor, or send them in to attack and run away while the enemy is distracted. It wasn't too hard to survive and be useful as a Gorge until I had the res for a higher life form. Now by the time Babblers are even researched I usually have enough for Lerk or Fade...
I certainly appreciate those who Gorge early game... but without Babblers it's just a waste of res for me. At least as a Skulk I can be helpful gnawing on extractors and such without losing all my res if I die.
If a gorge wanted to stand their ground, then the babblers would be good, but if they are constantly retreating, then they need to "shed" that armor to escape.
Same goes for Skulk, sure they would be more beefy to take on an entrenched marine, but he would have proportionately less agility.
I agree with a lot of this but as someone who gorges early I spend all my res on setting up an early gorge tunnel. Eg Veil: Run to nano lay down a tunnel for early cysts to harvesters and shade/crag and then go back to spawn to lay the other tunnel.
Babblers work later game when you have some res up, but it is hard to use in early game so it is not a big deal that they have to be researched... at least for me.
You would need an option to shake off babblers, though. I can imagine all the troll gorges pinning lerks to the ground with overwhelming masses of babblers
Oh, and the bait ball distance is laughable. Would it break the game balance, if it would work like parasite?
A lerk flying with 6 babblers looks uncomfortable to me, especially when they attach to the wings, affecting the aerodynamics xD
Well trolls will always exist, but ya perhaps a shake off button wouldn't be too bad
Again, How much Protection versus Speed Penalty has yet to be determined, perhaps it's fixed, perhaps it scales with life form.
At the present, babblers on an onos seems pointless, but babblers on a skulk (early game) is a strong play as it sacrifices PRES for defense. Much like building clogs or hydras also make that same sacrifice.
I don't think it is so much how heavy they are but that they hang onto you. I have a lot of very little cousins. Age 2-6. They all weigh about 30 pounds depending on the child. If one decides to hang onto my leg, its not that it is too heavy, but that I have something holding onto my leg slowing me down. The babblers would hinder proper movement more than weigh you down. If I had three cousins on me, it would be kinda heavy but doable. So I would be slowed down from weight and from restricted movement, aka all 6 babblers.
1. Even though Babblers have become part of a research package, and therefore much more difficult/timely to obtain, they have not been significantly buffed to compensate. In other words, one would assume that since Babblers are no longer "free tech", and cost team resources to unlock, they would be noticeably better than before. I have seen no evidence that this is the case and it confuses me.
2. The only use Babblers have EVER had, in any balance iteration, to my knowledge, is that of a glorified meatshield. While that role is great and all, why aren't they, a researchable tech, also useful on offense as well? Even if they focused a certain target better, or did more damage, or were harder to kill, the marine has plenty of ways to deal with them. The new hand grenades and the instantly researched flamethrower/grenade launcher tech (after the advanced armory is built) could easily take care of this threat.
If the only real role of the Babblers is to make somebody survive longer, then why even give them the ability to attack at all?
Having said all that, I think the game functions perfectly fine even if the Babblers were completely removed. Then again, the game would function perfectly fine even if the Marines didn't have access to the Sentry Turrets. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find a role for the Babblers. I think they are one of the coolest concepts of the game and I hope UWE can give them some love
Alternatively the abilities could be unclustered again, pricing the individual abilities accordingly, making babbler research a bit more viable choice to invest in early on.
They might not be as good for tanking bullets anymore (except shotgun and gl due to capped 2 hit system), but they are still sure as hell good for obscuring marine vision if you shoot them off your body into his face.
They are a far cry from the snarks that they originated from, in this regard.
No, Gorges are currently VERY strong early game and the most cost efficient life form aliens have all game round. It already has a LOT of health (especially when you take into account its heal spray + jump combo) and really doesn't need more vs w0 marines. If you're dying early game to marines as gorge then you aren't positioned correctly OR your team isn't either.
With the way tunnels are auto researched and cheap right now (but research is coming back RIGHT!?!?!?!?!) they're a MASSIVE game changer in competitive games and simply game BREAKING in pub games with high player counts where the team can afford to have 3-4 gorges and still have enough skulks to do stuff.
They do NOT need a buff with babbler armour, and as for babblers sticking to skulks early game, that was stupid and OP as well, glad it's gone.
They're still useful on fades/lerks (can save lerks lives many times over). So it's not like they're useless.
For a while their meatshield ability made them OP, but now that it's been toned down there's really little purpose in using them. They just feel like entirely superfluous game content at the moment.
The thing is, I don't see how they could be buffed without just making them a nuisance. Make them actually effective, and they're just annoying/OP.
Also, the system used for controlling them is really awkward.
You know, the more I think about it, I don't really like anything about Babblers. I wouldn't mind at all if they were removed from the game. Their skins are adorable though.
Either
A) Have the ability for them to latch onto something be included with gorge upgrades
I believe that would make babblers useful for early game annoyance and harass, along with possibly doing enough damage to lower the amount of bites/spits it will take to kill one. Yet still holding back on what was a bit too powerful.
Or in an entirely different direction, have the amount of babblers creatable be proportional to biomass. (Every 2/3 biomass you would be able to drop another egg?)
When the gorge isn't doing anything in particular, the babblers perch on the gorge's back, providing armour. When the gorge attacks something (a marine structure or player), the babblers rush over and start nibbling at it. When the gorge starts healing something, the babblers rush over and start nuzzling against it, trying to help (This is the most important one).
[EDIT] Oh and remove the bait ball.
It's about the initial 'shotgun' effect from close range of shooting them at a marine while they are on your body. This is the only way to easily control the launch to great effect. The marine will end up killing babblers in his face, which will make them explode in green obscuring puffs.
Try doing it around corners for great lols. *Add a face hugger drifter for even more lols.
Also, babblers at even 20hp are able to extend your hp past 50 lmg bullets x average aim. This means alot when it comes to survivability and ability to engage.
They arn't used in competitive play because it's better to spam cheap hydra's, super tunnels, or heck even to regorge. Not to mention blatantly op free clogs which are 13x the hp of one babbler. That's not to say babblers are underpowered, just that there are better, more op uses for that same pres.
The babblers also do not fit with the gorge play style of endless skirmish spitting pretty much like lerk gas in ns1 (also op due to low spit energy and crazy downhill bellyslide speed).
Are you kidding me?
...I want to be nuzzled by babblers.