Weapons or Armour 1 first?
male_fatalities
ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
After watching the Saunamen vs Snails game for NSL, I noticed they rush Weapons 1 first.
Here is some math of why I think this happened:
Killing skulk under <2 seconds
70 + 10 armour + 1.4 hp regen = 91.4hp
Weapons 0 = 10 bullets = 100 damage
Weapons 1 = 9 bullets = 99 damage
70 + 30 armour +1 hp regen = 131.4 hp
Weapons 0 = 14 bullets = 140 damage
Weapons 1 = 12 bullets = 132dmg
Killing skulk under <4 seconds
70 + 10 armour + 2.8 hp regen = 92.8hp
Weapons 0 = 10 bullets = 100 damage
Weapons 1 = 9 bullets = 99 damage
70 + 30 armour +2.8 hp regen = 132.8 hp
Weapons 0 = 14 bullets = 140 damage
Weapons 1 = 13 bullets = 143dmg
If you can kill the skulk in under 2 seconds with weapons 1 LMG, instead of carapace providing an effective HP gain of 40%, it will gain 20%.
If you can kill the skulk in between 2-4 seconds with weapons 1 LMG, the effectiveness of carapace will be 30% and not 20%.
Shotgun on Fully Matured RT
Note: Res towers do not have passive regeneration
Shotgun shot lvl 0 weapon = 160 damage
Shotgun level 1 weapon = 176 damage
HP = 2940HP
Weapons 0 = 19 shots = 3040dmg
Weapons 1 = 17 shots = 2992dmg
LMG on Fully Matured RT
Level 0 = 294 bullets or 6 LMG reloads
Level 1 = 268 bullets or 6 LMG reloads
Summary
Weapons 1 has nearly zero benefit killing a fully matured res tower.
Weapons 1 reduces effective HP of carapace skulk by 20%, instead of 10% if killed in under 2 seconds.
My opinion is armor 1 is still stronger, but after seeing the top teams go weapons 1 i'm questioning myself. Any other reasons you can think of?
Here is some math of why I think this happened:
Killing skulk under <2 seconds
70 + 10 armour + 1.4 hp regen = 91.4hp
Weapons 0 = 10 bullets = 100 damage
Weapons 1 = 9 bullets = 99 damage
70 + 30 armour +1 hp regen = 131.4 hp
Weapons 0 = 14 bullets = 140 damage
Weapons 1 = 12 bullets = 132dmg
Killing skulk under <4 seconds
70 + 10 armour + 2.8 hp regen = 92.8hp
Weapons 0 = 10 bullets = 100 damage
Weapons 1 = 9 bullets = 99 damage
70 + 30 armour +2.8 hp regen = 132.8 hp
Weapons 0 = 14 bullets = 140 damage
Weapons 1 = 13 bullets = 143dmg
If you can kill the skulk in under 2 seconds with weapons 1 LMG, instead of carapace providing an effective HP gain of 40%, it will gain 20%.
If you can kill the skulk in between 2-4 seconds with weapons 1 LMG, the effectiveness of carapace will be 30% and not 20%.
Shotgun on Fully Matured RT
Note: Res towers do not have passive regeneration
Shotgun shot lvl 0 weapon = 160 damage
Shotgun level 1 weapon = 176 damage
HP = 2940HP
Weapons 0 = 19 shots = 3040dmg
Weapons 1 = 17 shots = 2992dmg
LMG on Fully Matured RT
Level 0 = 294 bullets or 6 LMG reloads
Level 1 = 268 bullets or 6 LMG reloads
Summary
Weapons 1 has nearly zero benefit killing a fully matured res tower.
Weapons 1 reduces effective HP of carapace skulk by 20%, instead of 10% if killed in under 2 seconds.
My opinion is armor 1 is still stronger, but after seeing the top teams go weapons 1 i'm questioning myself. Any other reasons you can think of?
Comments
That is basically the reason. Also armor 1 doesn't change how many fade swipes it takes to kill a marine, so a lot of higher teams rush weapons 2 just to try to kill lifeforms better.
Curious to know why Ghost?
Weapons 1 provides only a 1 bullet difference and no one in Australia apart from Lord Mayor goes Crag hive. Early weapons 1 only is a good advantage when a team goes crag hive over veil/shift.
a1 protects from a para only, I can med that, so you really need a2 for it to be useful, if you HAVE struggled to get ups then getting weapons after that could be quite late, and I think weapon ups are very important for mid game with shotguns.
You do forget that most of the time RTs are being taken down by more than one player. So for example in competitive it's usually two players and in public it's usually 2-4. So in effect you're going to take it down even faster.
Fixed.
It still takes 6 clips regardless. If that 6 clips is divided between 2 players, it makes no difference. W0 and W1 are the same for killing RT's
Maybe with head-on engagements, armor 1 certainly shows its strength against ambush engagements though.
Magazines not clips. You're trying to base your entire game off of taking more damage and saying 1 more bite is better than 1 or 2 less bullets. To put that in perspective... No it makes no difference to have one more bite really. The idea is to kill them before they get to you, and you have problem with your math as well. You're assuming one on one, but rarely in a comp game is that the case, usually you have groups of at least 2 so you gotta cut that time in half so those 9 bullets are gonna go a lot quicker. If you have 2 marines and 50 bullets from each you basically only need to hit about 10% of your shots to kill them, less with weapons 1. So in that case armor doesn't help at all and with a welder, who cares. As far as lerks go it's a difference of about 2 bullets but the armor doesn't matter so much cause like someone said, med packs.
Also, if you're getting dropped on then you need to be more careful, you don't go, "oh we're going to be ambushed in some room ahead, better get those armour ups so we don't die".
btw thank you OP for that compilation of hard data
Oh snap.
all of those calculations are is unnecessary. it's just common sense a weapons upgrade benefits you all the time and armor upgrade only benefits you when it saves your life i.e. when you're under 40 hp (from your A1 pool of 200 hp)
In my opinion, Armor 1 first is the more effective upgrade, if your marines can aim. It limits your marine-supportive res expenditures and extends their life expectancies (insert quote about most valuable asset being a marine on the field said by some commander at some point). In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Weapons 1 has little to no impact on skulk killing ability and, if you can keep the alien team to just skulks, Armor 2 would be the more effective second upgrade.
Weapon upgrades come into play against things with more health, i.e. fades, lerks, and harvesters. I don't really feel like doing the math for the lifeforms, buts lets take your example of the harvester:
Here you state that Weapons 1 has zero benefit for killing a fully matured harvester, but that simply is not the case. The difference is 294 - 268 = 26 bullets, more than half a magazine! That's 2.5 skulks you can kill while you're shooting the harvester. It's also time (~1.5 seconds?) which is a lot in a pressure situation. As for the shotgun, it's two less shells. Meaning less time spent reloading and more time ready for that inevitable hit.
My conclusion - it depends entirely on your team. If you play really aggressively, pressure all out and want to spend res on winning before aliens get higher lifeforms (by crushing their res), Weapons upgrades > Armor upgrades. However, if you want to play slower, conserve, res, and win the long game, Armor upgrades are the way to go.
Yeah I do this. (Most of the time).
But, as a few have already said, it's more of a strategic/tactical decision - there isn't really a 'best' choice.
If your marines can't shoot = a1 (prevents 2 bite+para and adds extra cushion against lerks)
Replace 'shoot' with 'jump' in my case
Higher chance of killing the skulk with W1 is better than increased time before death with A1.