@CCTEE Oh yeah? I got my first triple kill with a single shot from an rail Exo last night... Look at you running and jumping and frantically trying to live, while I'm over here "pew" and all three are dead.
HAH! I once stared down an Onos and made him F4! Wait what was this thread about again :>
Wow, the amount of people who disagree with me.. Amazing.
I just wanted to say that I don't intend to change the Alien side of things. I think its a good thing that
they have a jumpy, twitchy experience.
I'm saying the marine players need to have a more robust feel to them. The shooting in NS2 is its
weakest link. The weapons feel unrealistic and unsatisfying to use. The jumping, spraying, marine gameplay
is not tense or interesting: its silly.
Its contrast people. The tactical marines versus the agile aliens.
I'm saying the marine players need to have a more robust feel to them. The shooting in NS2 is its
weakest link. The weapons feel unrealistic and unsatisfying to use. The jumping, spraying, marine gameplay
is not tense or interesting: its silly.
Wow, the amount of people who disagree with me.. Amazing.
I just wanted to say that I don't intend to change the Alien side of things. I think its a good thing that
they have a jumpy, twitchy experience.
I'm saying the marine players need to have a more robust feel to them. The shooting in NS2 is its
weakest link. The weapons feel unrealistic and unsatisfying to use. The jumping, spraying, marine gameplay
is not tense or interesting: its silly.
Its contrast people. The tactical marines versus the agile aliens.
I personally just don't want to have cement bags strapped to my legs and not being able to track aim and twitch aim, just for sake of "realism". What you're calling the weakest link, is in fact an age old proven design principle which has been featured in other fast paced track aim and twitch aim shooters (Unreal, Quake, HLDM, Tribes just to name a few)
It's basically the core design these types of games. Based around having no artificial limiters, like cement bag movement limitations, aim down sights slow down mechanisms and recoil luck factors. Just a pure emphasis on aiming (tracking/twitch), movement and positioning.
There are other games designed around these elements you're talking about, NS2 simply isn't one of those
I'm saying the marine players need to have a more robust feel to them. The shooting in NS2 is its
weakest link. The weapons feel unrealistic and unsatisfying to use. The jumping, spraying, marine gameplay
is not tense or interesting: its silly.
You have to be trolling right? Did you play any other shooter before call of duty? Honestly, barely any shooters had iron sights before then and they are some of the best games ever made. Why do you think these shooters didn't have iron sights? Partly it's due to the technology of its time but also because contrary to popular ignorant belief from modern FPS players, call of duty is not a fast paced game. Compared to shooters like Quake and Unreal, iron sights are utterly useless because the game is so fast paced and so twitchy. NS2 is the same.
There is no actual skill in controlling recoil but there is skill in movement, positioning and aim that is required in legendary games like Quake and CS. Quake is the most competitive shooter (imo) in the world, it's the hardest to play and the hardest to really excel at and "realistic" shooters are none of those things. Dumbing down games for "realism" is the worst idea imaginable and it applies to NS2 as well. The fact that you find iron sights satisfying to use and consider them as intricate design makes me laugh hysterically. How do you ever expect to kill an alien with iron sights?
What if you were watching the movie Aliens, and Sigorney Weaver started jumping around the aliens while shooting them like it was some kind of Saturday morning cartoon?
I'd turn that movie off right then and there.
Heads up genius, it's a movie about killer aliens from outta space. A MOVIE. Not a video game. Video games that try to be realistic and edgy end up being Medal of Honor: Warfighter. We all know how that turned out.
Think about it, lets bring NS2 to the modern era. I want to feel connected to my character, I want to feel immersed in the game. I want to bring up my sights, and slowly check
every corner. If an alien gets close to me, I deserve to die. It adds much more fear, and tension into the game.
That would be so boring for a multiplayer game. Even AvP doesn't work like that. It would work for a single player experience but not multiplayer. There's enough modern and "realistic" shooters already and you would sacrifice so much gameplay that it would be extremely slow paced. Why would you want to be more like Aliens: Colonial Marines? The game was a bastardization of the franchise and shooters in general.
There's a reason why AAA titles use realistic weapons while NS2 is going so broke that they've resorted to begging for funds. The gun play is sub-par. It's as simple as that.
The fact that you mentioned AAA pretty much ends your argument. UWE is not a AAA studio. Call of Duty got popular because of CoD4 and not because of iron sights, without 4, it would be probably be dead already. Battlefield was already popular on PC because of how revolutionary the gameplay was in 1942, again, not because of iron sights and realism. Oh and marketing and $100 millions along with a studio 100x larger than UWE kinda helps in making a game popular. Please explain why the gun play is sub-par other than realism because that argument is useless.
Final point. I can't believe how ignorant you are. Suspend your disbelief, it's a video game and trying to be immersed in multiplayer doesn't work because gameplay takes precedence over immersion in every single scenario.
Even if iron sight would be good (hahaha) then you can't implement it now. You have to build such thing from the ground up. Cause if you do it now all players leave... except you. And some COD and BF players will join. And they will leave cause they can't kill shit cause that's realistic!
Yes, I did. It was a shooter that was good in its day, but didn't really shine in the teamplay department. That was a deathmatch game,
NS2 is a teamed based game that has depth, the only problem is the gameplay doesn't reflect that depth. It's shallow.
You have to be trolling right? Did you play any other shooter before call of duty? Honestly, barely any shooters had iron sights before then and they are some of the best games ever made. Why do you think these shooters didn't have iron sights? Partly it's due to the technology of its time but also because contrary to popular ignorant belief from modern FPS players, call of duty is not a fast paced game. Compared to shooters like Quake and Unreal, iron sights are utterly useless because the game is so fast paced and so twitchy. NS2 is the same.
Team based games don't function as well when they are twitchy and fast paced. Do you really want NS2 to be like Quake? Why not add double jumping, wall jumping? We
can add a double damage powerup in the middle of the map and watch players scramble for it. Yeah, right.
There is no actual skill in controlling recoil but there is skill in movement, positioning and aim that is required in legendary games like Quake and CS. Quake is the most competitive shooter (imo) in the world, it's the hardest to play and the hardest to really excel at and "realistic" shooters are none of those things. Dumbing down games for "realism" is the worst idea imaginable and it applies to NS2 as well. The fact that you find iron sights satisfying to use and consider them as intricate design makes me laugh hysterically. How do you ever expect to kill an alien with iron sights?
Reduce movement, and suddenly positioning and aim are ten times more important. Reducing the marines ability to move and jump while shooting
promotes teamplay, it forces you to cover your squadmates. Using iron sights to kill an alien would be very possible, the gameplay just has
to be tweaked to allow it to flow properly.
Heads up genius, it's a movie about killer aliens from outta space. A MOVIE. Not a video game. Video games that try to be realistic and edgy end up being Medal of Honor: Warfighter. We all know how that turned out.
Movies and games are about fantasy. I want to be immersed into that fantasy. Also, I could name good games that have good shooting mechanics, and it doesn't change anything.
So your point about Medal of Honor is moot.
That would be so boring for a multiplayer game. Even AvP doesn't work like that. It would work for a single player experience but not multiplayer. There's enough modern and "realistic" shooters already and you would sacrifice so much gameplay that it would be extremely slow paced. Why would you want to be more like Aliens: Colonial Marines? The game was a bastardization of the franchise and shooters in general.
I'm not saying the game has to be that slow. I just don't want to look down at two players while I'm playing as the commander and see a marine and skulk jump around each other
like they both just ate a tub of Mexican jumping beans. Lame.
Aliens: Colonial Marines sucked. My point about it was that the weapons felt better in the game, despite how awful it was.
The fact that you mentioned AAA pretty much ends your argument. UWE is not a AAA studio. Call of Duty got popular because of CoD4 and not because of iron sights, without 4, it would be probably be dead already. Battlefield was already popular on PC because of how revolutionary the gameplay was in 1942, again, not because of iron sights and realism. Oh and marketing and $100 millions along with a studio 100x larger than UWE kinda helps in making a game popular. Please explain why the gun play is sub-par other than realism because that argument is useless.
Final point. I can't believe how ignorant you are. Suspend your disbelief, it's a video game and trying to be immersed in multiplayer doesn't work because gameplay takes precedence over immersion in every single scenario.
Call of Duty and Battlefield continued to be successful because they evolved, in gameplay and realism. NS2 needs to evolve in order to keep pace. I don't see how
missing features make a shooter better, on the contrary.
I firmly believe NS2 would be a more successful shooter if the shooting were better.
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
edited September 2013
I think this thread boils down to you wanting a different game; NS2 is not and never will be the way you pictured it.
Besides that, in a fast-paced alien shooter game, I think COD-style movement and aiming would only work in a singleplayer campaign where aliens move predictably. Otherwise it would be a very frustrating experience for marine players.
That's complete nonsense. Combat in this game is anything but shallow. There are so many variables to consider for each encounter as a marine; where you position yourself when you hear an alien coming, the immediate environment and possible terrain objects or features that could give you a situational edge when you need it, where your teammates are positioned and where you should be to be able to cover them with the clearest line of fire possible, whether or not you should attempt to ambush incoming aliens by hiding just around a corner, the current loadouts of yourself and your nearby teammates, the idea that skulks are capable of walljumping and you are not as a marine, etc.
Probably plenty of other variables I'm missing, but to claim that the combat is shallow shows a lack of understanding of how the combat actually plays out and the kind of quick analysis and decision making that needs to take place when against decent opponents in order to come out on top.
In such close encounter rooms, there won't be time to use iron sights. The majority of the maps in this game is close quarters that just about a millisecond is wasted on that skulk your trying to kill when you use iron sights.
I'm suggesting that they slow the game down, allow immersion to take hold. Slowly clearing rooms with your squad in a tense, realistic situation is a thousand times better
then running into a room until an alien attacks you, then bunny hopping around like some kind of jackrabbit until the alien is killed.
You can do this already. No one is stopping you from slowly clearing rooms. You don't have to bunnyhop.
Think about it, lets bring NS2 to the modern era. I want to feel connected to my character, I want to feel immersed in the game. I want to bring up my sights, and slowly check every corner. If an alien gets close to me, I deserve to die. It adds much more fear, and tension into the game.
Why would we want to bring NS2 closer to the modern era? It takes place in the future. We have clone armies and giant machine-gun wielding robot suits, but we still haven't figured out an integrated HUD for aiming? If it really makes that much of a difference where the gun is held on screen, why don't you just make a mod that centers the gun and raises it up so it looks like you're aiming from the shoulder? It probably wouldn't be that hard.
Currently, as a player, I feel like my immersion is broken by the lack-luster gun play in the game. Watching marines bunny hop around while wildly firing their weapons makes me feel disconnected, as if I'm playing Duke Nukem 3d or something.
Oh, so here's the real issue. You can't have fun without ruining the experience for everyone else. This has nothing to do with you wanting to slow the game down and use an ADS system. This is just you trying to force everyone else to play the game your way.
What if you were watching the movie Aliens, and Sigorney Weaver started jumping around the aliens while shooting them like it was some kind of Saturday morning cartoon?
I'd turn that movie off right then and there.
Guess what they have in the movie Aliens? A fucking machine gun with integrated HUD that allows you to target aliens automatically without aiming. Hmm.
I don't think you should be able to jump and fire your weapon at the same time. Period.
You can say that the game is arcadey by design, and you'd be correct- but it still sucks.
I'm not merely calling for iron sights to be added, I'm pushing for pacing that better suits
that kind of gameplay. Better gun-play, slower gameplay.
TFC, Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat may have been successful games in their time, but
this is today, and people vote with their wallets. Tactical shooters are in.
I'm pushing for a more robust and satisfying shooter experience that just isn't possible
with the current shooting mechanics. Hell, the shooting in "Aliens: Colonial Marines" is
better, and that is really sad.
Though i agree with the "jumping beans" problem.
NS is about RTS/FPS... RTS first.
I personally totally agree with the idea of iron sights. When I first started playing the Stable Alpha versions, it was something that I immediately felt was lacking from the game.
Iron Sights make it so you can get into the game much more, and can also help some of the new players that have trouble aiming.
I would personally love to see it, but the mouse sensitivity would need to be lowered while in it, just to counter the increase in aim that players have while using it. It would make it so its more useful for longer distances, and practically a suicide attempt when used in close range.
So pretty much;
Slightly increase accuracy, but decrease movement speed and mouse speed.
Slightly increase accuracy, but decrease movement speed and mouse speed.
You realize the rifle and pistol are nearly pinpoint accurate anyway? If you want to slow your mouse speed get a decent mouse driver and add a key to change your sensitivity on the fly.
UlmontJoin Date: 2011-10-02Member: 125211Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with the laughable notion of Iron-sights in NS2. But please, add them. No really. PLEASE. I so desperately want one (UNT PRECICELY ONE) day where the marines cannot shoot and move at the same time. Oh the K/D! Infinite kills! XD
Slightly increase accuracy, but decrease movement speed and mouse speed.
You realize the rifle and pistol are nearly pinpoint accurate anyway? If you want to slow your mouse speed get a decent mouse driver and add a key to change your sensitivity on the fly.
At a distance, no, rifles are nowhere near pinpoint accurage, pistols, yes.
As for changing Mouse Sensitivity on the fly, it would be something 99% of the players wouldent even bother with, let alone tweak. There is other ways they can do it anyways, such as limitations to the speed at which they can change perspective.
As for infinite kdr, just think about how difficult it would be to shoot down a skulk that is in close range when your rifle covers up 45% of your screen. Really, the only things it could be used to your advantage on would be the onos and the fade, and then at close range they'd have to switch back anyways, as the marine would lose its mobility to try and outmaneuver them.
Slightly increase accuracy, but decrease movement speed and mouse speed.
You realize the rifle and pistol are nearly pinpoint accurate anyway? If you want to slow your mouse speed get a decent mouse driver and add a key to change your sensitivity on the fly.
At a distance, no, rifles are nowhere near pinpoint accurage, pistols, yes.
As for changing Mouse Sensitivity on the fly, it would be something 99% of the players wouldent even bother with, let alone tweak. There is other ways they can do it anyways, such as limitations to the speed at which they can change perspective.
As for infinite kdr, just think about how difficult it would be to shoot down a skulk that is in close range when your rifle covers up 45% of your screen. Really, the only things it could be used to your advantage on would be the onos and the fade, and then at close range they'd have to switch back anyways, as the marine would lose its mobility to try and outmaneuver them.
Sure, I can get behind the idea that iron sights help with immersion. But what REAL purpose would they serve from a gameplay standpoint? The gains really don't justify the downsides in a game like this where your targets have much more unpredictable movement patterns than a guy running across the ground/floor.
Unless we're really going to entertain the notion of needing to rebuild and rebalance the game AGAIN from the ground up just to make iron sights something useful.
I am very sorry Schroder, but what you want won't fly with neither the community nor the devs. NS2 is a fast paced old school shooter. Giving you ironsights won't be the problem, but changing the game so they are actually useful or at least not generally bad for your survival is. You will also have a hard time chasing down hurt aliens. Plus: Think of the Alien-Players. If they get slowed down so much that they get hittable with iron sights on, they will be practically bound to ambush only. That is not only an extreme cut to their tactical freedom, but also fucking boring if it's all you ever do. What you want is a different game probably, which tragically doesn't seem to exist yet. Some creepy horror coop with noises from the vents and seemingly endless hordes running at you. You know. Left 4 Khara. Or maybe on an even greater scale with marines scattered on a infested planet, scrounging for ressources: DayK. (I will collect royalties for DayK. It rhymes, it's an awesome name and I wanna see heaps and heaps of res if you are gonna use it)
Edit:
Having read more from Schroder8823 in this thread: Wow. You REALLY want another game. There's a gun vs gun fps/rts hybrid game, you might want to check it out, it has ironsights and everything. http://www.nucleardawnthegame.com/
Now that I'm done being helpful:
Get the intercourse out and stop badmouthing old mechanics only because your brain isn't able to process movement and aiming at the same time. I have the feint feeling that you just fucking suck at it, because there is no way in hell shotgunning a skulk leaping at you and your jetpack isn't satisfying. If you have come to the point where you can't embrace shooter mechanics differing from your favorite shooter, you may just want to play your favorite shooter again.
Okay, this is when I start to laugh, iron sights? Are you for real???
This is a fast paced shooter which requires you to think fast and make quick decisions.
Ironsight is for slow tactical games like...rainbox 6?
The second you would look through your iron sights, you would be dead because you pressed mouse2 instead of mouse1 lol..
Comments
I just wanted to say that I don't intend to change the Alien side of things. I think its a good thing that
they have a jumpy, twitchy experience.
I'm saying the marine players need to have a more robust feel to them. The shooting in NS2 is its
weakest link. The weapons feel unrealistic and unsatisfying to use. The jumping, spraying, marine gameplay
is not tense or interesting: its silly.
Its contrast people. The tactical marines versus the agile aliens.
You never played Quake 3, haven't you?
I personally just don't want to have cement bags strapped to my legs and not being able to track aim and twitch aim, just for sake of "realism". What you're calling the weakest link, is in fact an age old proven design principle which has been featured in other fast paced track aim and twitch aim shooters (Unreal, Quake, HLDM, Tribes just to name a few)
It's basically the core design these types of games. Based around having no artificial limiters, like cement bag movement limitations, aim down sights slow down mechanisms and recoil luck factors. Just a pure emphasis on aiming (tracking/twitch), movement and positioning.
There are other games designed around these elements you're talking about, NS2 simply isn't one of those
You have to be trolling right? Did you play any other shooter before call of duty? Honestly, barely any shooters had iron sights before then and they are some of the best games ever made. Why do you think these shooters didn't have iron sights? Partly it's due to the technology of its time but also because contrary to popular ignorant belief from modern FPS players, call of duty is not a fast paced game. Compared to shooters like Quake and Unreal, iron sights are utterly useless because the game is so fast paced and so twitchy. NS2 is the same.
There is no actual skill in controlling recoil but there is skill in movement, positioning and aim that is required in legendary games like Quake and CS. Quake is the most competitive shooter (imo) in the world, it's the hardest to play and the hardest to really excel at and "realistic" shooters are none of those things. Dumbing down games for "realism" is the worst idea imaginable and it applies to NS2 as well. The fact that you find iron sights satisfying to use and consider them as intricate design makes me laugh hysterically. How do you ever expect to kill an alien with iron sights?
Heads up genius, it's a movie about killer aliens from outta space. A MOVIE. Not a video game. Video games that try to be realistic and edgy end up being Medal of Honor: Warfighter. We all know how that turned out.
That would be so boring for a multiplayer game. Even AvP doesn't work like that. It would work for a single player experience but not multiplayer. There's enough modern and "realistic" shooters already and you would sacrifice so much gameplay that it would be extremely slow paced. Why would you want to be more like Aliens: Colonial Marines? The game was a bastardization of the franchise and shooters in general.
The fact that you mentioned AAA pretty much ends your argument. UWE is not a AAA studio. Call of Duty got popular because of CoD4 and not because of iron sights, without 4, it would be probably be dead already. Battlefield was already popular on PC because of how revolutionary the gameplay was in 1942, again, not because of iron sights and realism. Oh and marketing and $100 millions along with a studio 100x larger than UWE kinda helps in making a game popular. Please explain why the gun play is sub-par other than realism because that argument is useless.
Final point. I can't believe how ignorant you are. Suspend your disbelief, it's a video game and trying to be immersed in multiplayer doesn't work because gameplay takes precedence over immersion in every single scenario.
I agreed to piss the others off.
Yes, I did. It was a shooter that was good in its day, but didn't really shine in the teamplay department. That was a deathmatch game,
NS2 is a teamed based game that has depth, the only problem is the gameplay doesn't reflect that depth. It's shallow.
Besides that, in a fast-paced alien shooter game, I think COD-style movement and aiming would only work in a singleplayer campaign where aliens move predictably. Otherwise it would be a very frustrating experience for marine players.
Probably plenty of other variables I'm missing, but to claim that the combat is shallow shows a lack of understanding of how the combat actually plays out and the kind of quick analysis and decision making that needs to take place when against decent opponents in order to come out on top.
That's fair.
You can do this already. No one is stopping you from slowly clearing rooms. You don't have to bunnyhop.
Why would we want to bring NS2 closer to the modern era? It takes place in the future. We have clone armies and giant machine-gun wielding robot suits, but we still haven't figured out an integrated HUD for aiming? If it really makes that much of a difference where the gun is held on screen, why don't you just make a mod that centers the gun and raises it up so it looks like you're aiming from the shoulder? It probably wouldn't be that hard.
Oh, so here's the real issue. You can't have fun without ruining the experience for everyone else. This has nothing to do with you wanting to slow the game down and use an ADS system. This is just you trying to force everyone else to play the game your way.
Guess what they have in the movie Aliens? A fucking machine gun with integrated HUD that allows you to target aliens automatically without aiming. Hmm.
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/M56_Smartgun
All you have to do is look below that line to get your answer.
Though i agree with the "jumping beans" problem.
NS is about RTS/FPS... RTS first.
Iron Sights make it so you can get into the game much more, and can also help some of the new players that have trouble aiming.
I would personally love to see it, but the mouse sensitivity would need to be lowered while in it, just to counter the increase in aim that players have while using it. It would make it so its more useful for longer distances, and practically a suicide attempt when used in close range.
So pretty much;
Slightly increase accuracy, but decrease movement speed and mouse speed.
You realize the rifle and pistol are nearly pinpoint accurate anyway? If you want to slow your mouse speed get a decent mouse driver and add a key to change your sensitivity on the fly.
At a distance, no, rifles are nowhere near pinpoint accurage, pistols, yes.
As for changing Mouse Sensitivity on the fly, it would be something 99% of the players wouldent even bother with, let alone tweak. There is other ways they can do it anyways, such as limitations to the speed at which they can change perspective.
As for infinite kdr, just think about how difficult it would be to shoot down a skulk that is in close range when your rifle covers up 45% of your screen. Really, the only things it could be used to your advantage on would be the onos and the fade, and then at close range they'd have to switch back anyways, as the marine would lose its mobility to try and outmaneuver them.
I didn't mean infinite KDR as marines, silly :P
Unless we're really going to entertain the notion of needing to rebuild and rebalance the game AGAIN from the ground up just to make iron sights something useful.
Edit:
Having read more from Schroder8823 in this thread: Wow. You REALLY want another game. There's a gun vs gun fps/rts hybrid game, you might want to check it out, it has ironsights and everything. http://www.nucleardawnthegame.com/
Now that I'm done being helpful:
Nuclear Dawn is the first game to offer a full FPS and RTS experience, within a single gameplay model
RAPE THOSE DOGS UWE!
This is a fast paced shooter which requires you to think fast and make quick decisions.
Ironsight is for slow tactical games like...rainbox 6?
The second you would look through your iron sights, you would be dead because you pressed mouse2 instead of mouse1 lol..
now just make a zoom plugin
have fun... playing against bots