With a game as different from the norm as NS2 is, people should have to complete a tutorial of some sort before the multiplayer option is even available.
I totally understand why it isn't of course, but I think it would help new players.
I doubt that summer time has a large negative effect on player numbers. To me that's just a myth.
Sure, some people are on holiday, but not everybody and usually not for more than a few weeks.
On the other hand, more free time equals more time to play.
Take a look at the most played multiplayer Steam games: TF2, Dota 2, CS:GO, even Garry's Mod gained players during summer or stayed at the same level.
Summer is a bad excuse for NS2's dropping player numbers.
Skyrim http://steamcharts.com/app/72850#All
This is a good one to look at. Peaks during summer and breaks and dies down during school. Lots of people playing Skyrim over spring break rather than going out and getting wasted and doing potentially dangerous activities.
If we ignore quit rates of veteran players, the game has only picked up about 200 players who stay. First sale was July 24th, it's not even a month and the game is quickly on track to return to pre-sale active player numbers. The last 7 days looks quite a bit like May-June 2013. Off hand, I'm guessing that's about a 85% quit rate or a 15% new user retention. I don't think I need to say how bad that is.
Summer doesn't explain the drop off at all. There's clearly something else going on.
@UncleCrunch it is you who has no argument.
All of your posts are harping on about using one stream of funding to support other activities, which is trivial and obvious to anyone with life experience. It's the same in science, where some funding sources are used to bolster work in areas not specifically mentioned in the original grant proposal. This happens everywhere in life and I have in no way contested it. This is why I told you that you're missing the point, because you're stuck on a trivial matter that is not even in question.
So stop accusing me of being naive, when in fact it is you who fails to see the simple logic in this thread.
What does UWE gain from putting considerable effort into NS2 at this point in time? Do you think they're expecting to make 100000 more sales? The majority of the revenue has already been obtained from NS2 and putting more money into it now will have much lower returns than putting that same resource into a new game.
Even if they were getting external funding, which cory has said in this very thread is not the case, they would be better off financially putting those resources into a new game (customer satisfaction and retention aside).
And there is part of the reason why UWE still works at their expense (NB: they could work instead on a new game) on NS2: customer satisfaction. But also pride in a project and wanting it to be as good as it can be. This does of course raise the profile of the company, which will have longer term effects on their image and ultimately their profitability.
My point, which you failed to grasp, is that UWE does this, while most other game companies will move on to the next game.
My comment about a movie company was to point out how ridiculous it would be for an outside investor to provide funds with the specific stipulation that those funds are to be used for supporting an already released game - and furthermore that no acknowledgement of that company's investment should be made. If they were doing other work, of course they might divert some of that funding towards other projects, that's as no-brainer.
The fact that UWE continues to support NS2 with considerable resources is the point here, not where that revenue comes from.
@UncleCrunch it is you who has no argument.
All of your posts are harping on about using one stream of funding to support other activities, which is trivial and obvious to anyone with life experience. It's the same in science, where some funding sources are used to bolster work in areas not specifically mentioned in the original grant proposal. This happens everywhere in life and I have in no way contested it. This is why I told you that you're missing the point, because you're stuck on a trivial matter that is not even in question.
So stop accusing me of being naive, when in fact it is you who fails to see the simple logic in this thread.
What does UWE gain from putting considerable effort into NS2 at this point in time? Do you think they're expecting to make 100000 more sales? The majority of the revenue has already been obtained from NS2 and putting more money into it now will have much lower returns than putting that same resource into a new game.
Even if they were getting external funding, which cory has said in this very thread is not the case, they would be better off financially putting those resources into a new game (customer satisfaction and retention aside).
And there is part of the reason why UWE still works at their expense (NB: they could work instead on a new game) on NS2: customer satisfaction. But also pride in a project and wanting it to be as good as it can be. This does of course raise the profile of the company, which will have longer term effects on their image and ultimately their profitability.
My point, which you failed to grasp, is that UWE does this, while most other game companies will move on to the next game.
Which would be the case if they had one. We would only have at most "bug patches" in that case. The industry is somehow "using pressure" so no time for other things. The fact they still continue is probably not based on pride. It's a company probably dealing with an economy which isn't that healthy so having a better visit card is never a downside. They probably don't have much to do, except trying to find contracts for the leading staff and trying to find a job the others. At some point you have to think about that. Especially in USA. Hope they're not on food stamps (not joking, ~40 millions are).
My comment about a movie company was to point out how ridiculous it would be for an outside investor to provide funds with the specific stipulation that those funds are to be used for supporting an already released game - and furthermore that no acknowledgement of that company's investment should be made. If they were doing other work, of course they might divert some of that funding towards other projects, that's as no-brainer.
The fact that UWE continues to support NS2 with considerable resources is the point here, not where that revenue comes from.
As you adequately put; it is ridiculous. And i may add clearly not "on point". So why bringing it in the first place ?
One way or another the revenue will inevitably be the point. A matter of time. A company doesn't think in terms of pride.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
If UWE would stop advancing NS2, yes, that would be the dead of NS2.
But they are still improving the game 10 month after release and introducing new featers (matchmaking, DX10 support, Server Linux support, new maps,..) for free.
With hopefully better performance (DX10), cheaper serverhosting (Linux) and the new stuff sewlek is working on, i think we can lean back the next couple of month.
This small playerbase has some positive aspects btw:
I never played a onlineshooter for such a long time with nearly ZERO cheater problems.
We have still a friendly atmosphere on the server most of the time:
- no OWNZ, PWND
- Cant count all the possible noobs in BF3 (Wallshootnoob, Tanknoob, Campernoob, Lighthousenoob, ...)
Not sure how many of you know me, but I used to play alot. I haven't played in months due to the constant updating. I don't like re-learning a game when I have hundreds of hours logged. If a veteran is getting sick of the learning curve, it certainly isn't going to appeal to new players.
Don't get me wrong, new features have been great, but I think we are past that point. You guys need to find a balanced update and stick to it. There have been lots of balanced builds in the past and I have really enjoyed them. It just seems like as soon as we find balance a tweak changes things and we wait another 4-5 builds before balance is found again.
This game has way too many variables to constantly be trying to balance. Find one that is close enough and be done with it. You guys have been great, but you need to know when to take a step back.
I wonder if sc2 fans have been saying the same thing since it's launch..
people laugh at the developers because they always talk about what's "more interesting to watch" rather than what actually helps the gameplay
but they do tend to react and address things that affect the win rate at high levels. and the tweaks are extremely minor.
they don't even pretend the game is balanced beyond 1v1 on extremely similar maps, so it's a pretty easy job
the dirty secret is that matchmaking is what keeps SC2 "balanced", not Blizzard's skills as a developer
Blizzard only has to balance for the highest level because everyone else will be at a 50% win rate.
Not in the other half of the world...damn northern hemispherians...thinking they are the whole world.
Its winter down here...kids are at school and snow is falling.
We're talking about NS2 here. How many players do you think you actually have down there? 75 % of all NS2 players live in the USA and in Europe, thus it's going to be way more noticeable if they take a break than if players elsewhere do. I myself live in a small country and have no problem with other peoples, including you. But your inferiority complex doesn't change these facts, mate.
Why do you assume that the OP lives in the southern hemisphere? As most people know, decline is normal in any game, including NS2. So the fact that the OP decides to create a topic now in which he complains about an especially severe decline "as of late" probably means that it's something not tied to the normal decline, such as the current season. The last two months is when people in Europe and the US usually go on vacation.
I doubt that summer time has a large negative effect on player numbers. To me that's just a myth.
Sure, some people are on holiday, but not everybody and usually not for more than a few weeks.
On the other hand, more free time equals more time to play.
Take a look at the most played multiplayer Steam games: TF2, Dota 2, CS:GO, even Garry's Mod gained players during summer or stayed at the same level.
Summer is a bad excuse for NS2's dropping player numbers.
The fact that you consider this a myth suggests that you simply haven't studied these things, which is understandable as it's hardly a common hobby. Gaming-activity is very much affected by season. Even more so during the last ten years in fact, as the employed casual gamer has been growing like crazy during this time. Whether or not this is what's been affecting NS2 as of late could be discussed forever. Those of us who believe in stats and historical facts have reasons to believe they are seasonal. Those who lack such knowledge obviously blame it on whatever otherwise makes the most sense to them. The games you mention have an enormous amount of players compared to NS2 which tells us that they very well may have a general increase in players, rather than player activity per player. NS2 hardly has a similar momentum apart from during the sales.
Regardless, either side of this spectrum have nothing but speculation to go on. So your theories are just as valid as mine. Apart from the research i've done, almost every person on my friends list who plays NS2 regularly, which consists of almost 50 people, have been on vacation recently and started gaming a lot again once they came back. You don't even have to start the game to notice the seasonal decline; it's right there in the friends-list.
Skyrim http://steamcharts.com/app/72850#All
This is a good one to look at. Peaks during summer and breaks and dies down during school. Lots of people playing Skyrim over spring break rather than going out and getting wasted and doing potentially dangerous activities.
These are of course interesting stats. But i do think there's quite a flaw in your basis; you assume that the NS2 player-base consists of age-groups similar to those of the other games you mentioned. This is nothing but experience (of which 600+ hours is accounted for), but i've never come across a game in which the teenage/student-to-adult ratio is as low as in NS2. The youngest player i know is 19 and the youngest i've ever heard of 15. Apart from them, the average age looking at the ENSL rosters and the amount of people using voice-com who certainly haven't seen a pimple in the mirror in many a year are staggering. Frankly i think that's one of the most attractive things about the game.
I don't think that you can count NS2 as a game whom's player-activity should rise during summer and decline once school-season begins. It's more likely the other way around, whether or not a flat-out disliking of the game is part of the recent decline or not, which i'm certainly not disputing.
Not sure how many of you know me, but I used to play alot. I haven't played in months due to the constant updating. I don't like re-learning a game when I have hundreds of hours logged. If a veteran is getting sick of the learning curve, it certainly isn't going to appeal to new players.
Don't get me wrong, new features have been great, but I think we are past that point. You guys need to find a balanced update and stick to it. There have been lots of balanced builds in the past and I have really enjoyed them. It just seems like as soon as we find balance a tweak changes things and we wait another 4-5 builds before balance is found again.
This game has way too many variables to constantly be trying to balance. Find one that is close enough and be done with it. You guys have been great, but you need to know when to take a step back.
@Tom_Hanks13 First of all, new players will come in playing the game with the current updated gameplay mechanic meaning they won't be relearning anything, just learning. Secondly, I'm not sure what is so hard to learn for a "veteran" (if you actually are one). It took me 5 minutes to relearn the fade and lerk. I like the skulk better now and the marines and onos hasn't changed at all. Now you may be talking about the commander play, but if you were actually having fun playing as the alien comm pre-250 then I feel sorry for you. Your life must have been extremely boring and tedious if that was enjoyable, and maybe gardening is better suited for you. What I mean is I applaud the devs being nice enough to dedicate their time and money into improving a game that for all intensive purposes was becoming very boring. They added a new map, new abilities, new strats, and all for free. Balance is a hard issue, yes, but they still care enough to work on it. And I'd rather have a fun interesting game than a boring balanced one any day.
These are of course interesting stats. But i do think there's quite a flaw in your basis; you assume that the NS2 player-base consists of age-groups similar to those of the other games you mentioned. This is nothing but experience (of which 600+ hours is accounted for), but i've never come across a game in which the teenage/student-to-adult ratio is as low as in NS2.
Actually, I don't think summer has any real impact on this game whatsoever. But I did cite the other games as proof that games shouldn't see declines in summer in general and the charts do suggest just that. Games should see increases in summer holding all other factors constant.
The youngest player i know is 19 and the youngest i've ever heard of 15. Apart from them, the average age looking at the ENSL rosters and the amount of people using voice-com who certainly haven't seen a pimple in the mirror in many a year are staggering. Frankly i think that's one of the most attractive things about the game.
If that's so, we shouldn't see any seasonal changes outside of holidays (which do show up in Steam Charts, no one was playing on New Year's Eve). Summer shouldn't matter at all if teenagers and college students aren't the people in the game. Blaming summer when the player base is not effected by school sessions isn't a good argument.
I did met some 12 year olds in the game. Or they were trolls using voice changers, I can't be sure. One particularly annoying kid sounded like he was just starting puberty. But I do get the feeling that game isn't dependent on teenagers. Hence why I don't think summer has anything to do with the decline in the population. You can't blame summer on the game's dropping population.
I don't think that you can count NS2 as a game whom's player-activity should rise during summer and decline once school-season begins. It's more likely the other way around, whether or not a flat-out disliking of the game is part of the recent decline or not, which i'm certainly not disputing.
If what you say is true about the player base, school sessions shouldn't impact the game in any noticeable way. Thus, it's something else that is causing the declines.
I did some math on the retention rates and it's bad.
I wonder if sc2 fans have been saying the same thing since it's launch..
people laugh at the developers because they always talk about what's "more interesting to watch" rather than what actually helps the gameplay
but they do tend to react and address things that affect the win rate at high levels. and the tweaks are extremely minor.
they don't even pretend the game is balanced beyond 1v1 on extremely similar maps, so it's a pretty easy job
the dirty secret is that matchmaking is what keeps SC2 "balanced", not Blizzard's skills as a developer
Blizzard only has to balance for the highest level because everyone else will be at a 50% win rate.
Yeah, but Activison-Blizzard does spend the time to make sure balance is as perfect as they can get it before release. I've never felt that any strategy game that Blizzard released was significantly unbalanced at its core. Warcraft 1, Warcraft II, Sc1, Sc2, nothing seriously unbalanced.
What RTS games are balanced for more than 1 on 1? Sins of a Solar Empire is definitely not. Ganging up on one player is unbalanced period. Red Alert isn't balanced for more than 1 on 1. They can't control people from failing to support their ally who's being double or tripled teamed.
I think the lack of stepping stones puts a nasty twist on the whole balance problem. Usually in games you have some 'next step' to take to overcome your nemesis. NS2 isn't particularly good at that.
In SC2 you can practise your mechanics, check a replay, spectate a tournament or watch the Day[9] daily. All these show you how better players manage to do things. In MMORPGs or RPGs you might grind up that next character level or item. Even meaningless achievements might have a very positive placebo effect.
NS2 doesn't have that much going on with that kind of progression. It doesn't have unlockables, it doesn't have much insightful high level content, it doesn't have analytical tools. When people can't figure out their next step, they get frustrated. Combine the frustration with seemingly bonkers balance stats and you've got the situation we've got here.
The balance numbers definitely aren't pretty, but it's partitially the community structure and ingame information feed that make the balance percentages get into such an unpleasant spotlight.
If that's so, we shouldn't see any seasonal changes outside of holidays (which do show up in Steam Charts, no one was playing on New Year's Eve). Summer shouldn't matter at all if teenagers and college students aren't the people in the game. Blaming summer when the player base is not effected by school sessions isn't a good argument.
Nope, summer changes EVERYTHING. Kids not in school, families taking holidays, young adults who haven't yet got children taking holidays, people either choosing to work more (because traffic is better as the kids aren't at school), or not work so much and take more breaks...
Plus there's the weather: long summer nights are less conducive to playing games in a stuffy (possibly darkened, but maybe not, in which case it's too bright) room, especially when it's REALLY hot, which it has been at times here in Europe this summer.
I'm 33, I have a 1 year old boy, and a massive commute. My boss is currently on holiday, which means my workload at the minute is insane and I've found it difficult to play as a result.
There are many more factors than whether you are a kid going to school, or a uni student etc.
I wonder if sc2 fans have been saying the same thing since it's launch..
people laugh at the developers because they always talk about what's "more interesting to watch" rather than what actually helps the gameplay
but they do tend to react and address things that affect the win rate at high levels. and the tweaks are extremely minor.
they don't even pretend the game is balanced beyond 1v1 on extremely similar maps, so it's a pretty easy job
the dirty secret is that matchmaking is what keeps SC2 "balanced", not Blizzard's skills as a developer
Blizzard only has to balance for the highest level because everyone else will be at a 50% win rate.
I don't remember Blizzard adding any new units or abilities during the life of SC2 Wings of Liberty. At most they removed or added higher tech upgrades and fiddled with a few numbers.
The gamestyle changed on ladder even without patches just from new styles appearing from the pros and being copied which pushed out old builds.
Nope, summer changes EVERYTHING. Kids not in school, families taking holidays, young adults who haven't yet got children taking holidays, people either choosing to work more (because traffic is better as the kids aren't at school), or not work so much and take more breaks...
That doesn't explain why the other games aren't showing the same behavior. Hence why I linked them. The other top games are all showing either no changes or increasing in activity. Except for NS2. What's your explanation as to why games from Civ 5, to CSGo, Skyrim, Borderlands 2 and others aren't seeing a summer drop?
Plus there's the weather: long summer nights are less conducive to playing games in a stuffy (possibly darkened, but maybe not, in which case it's too bright) room, especially when it's REALLY hot, which it has been at times here in Europe this summer.
Still doesn't make any sense considering the massive heat waves in the US as well. Not seeing declines in other games.
I'm 33, I have a 1 year old boy, and a massive commute. My boss is currently on holiday, which means my workload at the minute is insane and I've found it difficult to play as a result.
There are many more factors than whether you are a kid going to school, or a uni student etc.
Okay, what's your argument for why NS2 is not seeing the same trends as other games? Does NS2 live in a world that doesn't have the same issues that every other game faces? Give me a break here and find a reasonable explanation that doesn't require suspension of disbelief. Summer has nothing to do with the decline.
Having a much smaller pool of active players likely exaggerates any fluctuations.
Recent very very good humble bundle (again combined with a small community: those games you listed are huge and will be somewhat more resistant to such changes)
Maybe the average player age in NS2 is higher than those other games? Do we have more people at work and fewer kids off for the summer? After all, many here played NS1, which was a few years ago!
That's 3 possible reasons, none of which requires 'suspension of disbelief' (lol like an alien invasion has targeted NS2 players or something). They might not be contributory factors at all, though it's possible...
My reason for playing less these days is because of what is mentioned in another post.... can't join games because servers are either full or empty
And trying to join a full server isn't that fun either..... it usually takes a while before someone quits and a spot opens up, and even then you might not get that spot.
There is no queuing system and you can't tell how many people is fighting that same spot as you.
My reason for playing less these days is because of what is mentioned in another post.... can't join games because servers are either full or empty
And trying to join a full server isn't that fun either..... it usually takes a while before someone quits and a spot opens up, and even then you might not get that spot.
There is no queuing system and you can't tell how many people is fighting that same spot as you.
This is so true and so sad because how complicated can it be to make a queueing system that actually is a queueing system and not just a lottery where whoever pings the server at the right time wins?!?
Having a much smaller pool of active players likely exaggerates any fluctuations.
Look at the percent changes. Only Borderlands 2 has the same kind of double digit drop from the past 30 days. The rest are up. When compared on a percentage basis, only BL2 and NS2 are seeing major declines.
Recent very very good humble bundle (again combined with a small community: those games you listed are huge and will be somewhat more resistant to such changes)
Again, on a percentage change basis, only 2 games I listed are seeing severe drops.
Maybe the average player age in NS2 is higher than those other games? Do we have more people at work and fewer kids off for the summer? After all, many here played NS1, which was a few years ago!
If the average players in NS2 isn't affected by school seasonal changes, we shouldn't see summer impact the game at all. On top of that, the decline in players seems to be moving at the normal rate, especially when compared to the Gorgeous Update, after you remove the two major player drops from the recent two sales. It's looking like the game has only picked up a net 100 players for all of the sames. That's embarrassing. I'm seeing right now the peak between Aug 21 and Aug 22 908 players which is actually worse than after the first sale of 912 and a tad bit better than 800 or so players playing before the sale.
That's 3 possible reasons, none of which requires 'suspension of disbelief' (lol like an alien invasion has targeted NS2 players or something). They might not be contributory factors at all, though it's possible...
The first two are invalid when you look at a percentage change compared to other games. Smaller player base vs larger player basis is irrelevant on a percentage to percentage basis. As for the older crowd, that should actually show no summer changes.
Seriously, it's not summer as to why the game is moving swiftly back to pre-sale numbers. As predicted, once the sales end, the player base drops back to what it was. Now the question is the game picked up enough new players to compensate for the loss of veterans who hate Build 250+.
@Super_Gorge
My 2 cents.
I do believe there is another thing that adds (not the main argument). The more i play the more i see on one side "legit vets" and cheaters. I'm surprised that cheaters entered the realm. The audience numbers should have prevented it. Now we have proof there ARE some cheaters and we have now "NS2BANS.COM". That sounds bad.
-Thought i manage to deal with these cheaters by winning (me and the team) and make them look ridiculous. I can't help asking myself what will be the next kind of cheats in the next 2 weeks. It's not encouraging me to play more.
-This is embarrassing for legit players that just are good (positioning in rooms, anticipating etc.) and get the "cheater" sticker on their back just for being good. I still manage to kill them as i am a bastard skulk. Sorry i can't help it...
But...
-A rookie that get into this environment "legit Vets", cheater, and people who accuse them, isn't the best "first contact". Why playing if the game is full of cheater. If you bought NS2 to fly away from a game full of cheaters... you don't like what you see.
-People ultimately see this more often as population drop. The % of cheater increase as population drops. You need only one accusation to ruin the mood of a entire server.
UWE should really do something about it. Code more in the game to secure it in place of making more maps and modifications. It looks like UWE don't have any coders at all (keybindings are still a mess). Once you have the functionalities (passive for recording better, active for proper detection), this would be somehow breathable in there and a way better atmosphere.
In all my time of playing NS2, I've come across a total of two people who might have been cheating (couldn't even tell well enough to be sure). It's hardly a major issue, although I can only speak for EU servers.
Since I have never seen (/ noticed) anyone cheating yet, I've watched the proof videos on ns2bans.com. Sure, they can track perfectly, but they are usually still just rookies, who have no clue about positioning and meta game.
Their accuracy can easily be overcome with clever team play of 2 or 3 aliens.
I'd say that is one of the reasons why cheaters are so rare in this game. Aimbotting does not guarantee winning. You still might get stomped just like the rest of the team.
Since I have never seen (/ noticed) anyone cheating yet, I've watched the proof videos on ns2bans.com. Sure, they can track perfectly, but they are usually still just rookies, who have no clue about positioning and meta game.
Their accuracy can easily be overcome with clever team play of 2 or 3 aliens.
I'd say that is one of the reasons why cheaters are so rare in this game. Aimbotting does not guarantee winning. You still might get stomped just like the rest of the team.
It stills improves individual performances that add to the whole team performance. Clever teamwork should only be focused on the game, not considering a spotted cheater. Every game have a cheating (Aimbot, 3rdparty)/exploit (pink skulk in shadows) problem. STEAM VAC, Punkbuster and others aren't made for nothing. Even if there was no problem on NS2, i would vote for a "sentry". Better safe than sorry.
The problem isn't cheating in itself, it's the way it brings suspicion to any other "legit", the way it makes the atmosphere reek.
I think the big deal in getting the summer inactives (let there be few or many) back is going to be how UWE represents the future of NS2. Are they going to try to tackle the big issues decisively or NS2 going to settle down on how it plays out as it is?
Reinforced definitely sends some message and gives a hype boost, but I feel many long term inactives are more looking for structural changes than just raw extra content. The interest is more on the BT mod kind of things than completely new stuff.
Since I have never seen (/ noticed) anyone cheating yet, I've watched the proof videos on ns2bans.com. Sure, they can track perfectly, but they are usually still just rookies, who have no clue about positioning and meta game.
Their accuracy can easily be overcome with clever team play of 2 or 3 aliens.
I'd say that is one of the reasons why cheaters are so rare in this game. Aimbotting does not guarantee winning. You still might get stomped just like the rest of the team.
It stills improves individual performances that add to the whole team performance. Clever teamwork should only be focused on the game, not considering a spotted cheater. Every game have a cheating (Aimbot, 3rdparty)/exploit (pink skulk in shadows) problem. STEAM VAC, Punkbuster and others aren't made for nothing. Even if there was no problem on NS2, i would vote for a "sentry". Better safe than sorry.
The problem isn't cheating in itself, it's the way it brings suspicion to any other "legit", the way it makes the atmosphere reek.
Even if VAC and consistency checking would detect/deny any cheating, the next random internet stranger would still accuse you of cheating if you dare to play better than him.
Since I have never seen (/ noticed) anyone cheating yet, I've watched the proof videos on ns2bans.com. Sure, they can track perfectly, but they are usually still just rookies, who have no clue about positioning and meta game.
Their accuracy can easily be overcome with clever team play of 2 or 3 aliens.
I'd say that is one of the reasons why cheaters are so rare in this game. Aimbotting does not guarantee winning. You still might get stomped just like the rest of the team.
It stills improves individual performances that add to the whole team performance. Clever teamwork should only be focused on the game, not considering a spotted cheater. Every game have a cheating (Aimbot, 3rdparty)/exploit (pink skulk in shadows) problem. STEAM VAC, Punkbuster and others aren't made for nothing. Even if there was no problem on NS2, i would vote for a "sentry". Better safe than sorry.
The problem isn't cheating in itself, it's the way it brings suspicion to any other "legit", the way it makes the atmosphere reek.
Even if VAC and consistency checking would detect/deny any cheating, the next random internet stranger would still accuse you of cheating if you dare to play better than him.
In that case we would be able to rely on something that "shields" a little, at least. Here we have nothing except ns2ban.com. sad...
Comments
I totally understand why it isn't of course, but I think it would help new players.
It's a terrible excuse.
TF2
http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All
Garry's Mod shows summer activity picking up:
http://steamcharts.com/app/4000#All
Civ 5 shows no discernible changes until the big pickup from Steam's Summer Sale:
http://steamcharts.com/app/8930#All
CS:GO
http://steamcharts.com/app/730#All
Skyrim
http://steamcharts.com/app/72850#All
This is a good one to look at. Peaks during summer and breaks and dies down during school. Lots of people playing Skyrim over spring break rather than going out and getting wasted and doing potentially dangerous activities.
Borderlands 2:
http://steamcharts.com/app/49520#All
And then we come to NS2:
http://steamcharts.com/app/4920#All
If we ignore quit rates of veteran players, the game has only picked up about 200 players who stay. First sale was July 24th, it's not even a month and the game is quickly on track to return to pre-sale active player numbers. The last 7 days looks quite a bit like May-June 2013. Off hand, I'm guessing that's about a 85% quit rate or a 15% new user retention. I don't think I need to say how bad that is.
Summer doesn't explain the drop off at all. There's clearly something else going on.
All of your posts are harping on about using one stream of funding to support other activities, which is trivial and obvious to anyone with life experience. It's the same in science, where some funding sources are used to bolster work in areas not specifically mentioned in the original grant proposal. This happens everywhere in life and I have in no way contested it. This is why I told you that you're missing the point, because you're stuck on a trivial matter that is not even in question.
So stop accusing me of being naive, when in fact it is you who fails to see the simple logic in this thread.
What does UWE gain from putting considerable effort into NS2 at this point in time? Do you think they're expecting to make 100000 more sales? The majority of the revenue has already been obtained from NS2 and putting more money into it now will have much lower returns than putting that same resource into a new game.
Even if they were getting external funding, which cory has said in this very thread is not the case, they would be better off financially putting those resources into a new game (customer satisfaction and retention aside).
And there is part of the reason why UWE still works at their expense (NB: they could work instead on a new game) on NS2: customer satisfaction. But also pride in a project and wanting it to be as good as it can be. This does of course raise the profile of the company, which will have longer term effects on their image and ultimately their profitability.
My point, which you failed to grasp, is that UWE does this, while most other game companies will move on to the next game.
My comment about a movie company was to point out how ridiculous it would be for an outside investor to provide funds with the specific stipulation that those funds are to be used for supporting an already released game - and furthermore that no acknowledgement of that company's investment should be made. If they were doing other work, of course they might divert some of that funding towards other projects, that's as no-brainer.
The fact that UWE continues to support NS2 with considerable resources is the point here, not where that revenue comes from.
Which would be the case if they had one. We would only have at most "bug patches" in that case. The industry is somehow "using pressure" so no time for other things. The fact they still continue is probably not based on pride. It's a company probably dealing with an economy which isn't that healthy so having a better visit card is never a downside. They probably don't have much to do, except trying to find contracts for the leading staff and trying to find a job the others. At some point you have to think about that. Especially in USA. Hope they're not on food stamps (not joking, ~40 millions are).
As you adequately put; it is ridiculous. And i may add clearly not "on point". So why bringing it in the first place ?
One way or another the revenue will inevitably be the point. A matter of time. A company doesn't think in terms of pride.
But they are still improving the game 10 month after release and introducing new featers (matchmaking, DX10 support, Server Linux support, new maps,..) for free.
With hopefully better performance (DX10), cheaper serverhosting (Linux) and the new stuff sewlek is working on, i think we can lean back the next couple of month.
This small playerbase has some positive aspects btw:
I never played a onlineshooter for such a long time with nearly ZERO cheater problems.
We have still a friendly atmosphere on the server most of the time:
- no OWNZ, PWND
- Cant count all the possible noobs in BF3 (Wallshootnoob, Tanknoob, Campernoob, Lighthousenoob, ...)
Don't get me wrong, new features have been great, but I think we are past that point. You guys need to find a balanced update and stick to it. There have been lots of balanced builds in the past and I have really enjoyed them. It just seems like as soon as we find balance a tweak changes things and we wait another 4-5 builds before balance is found again.
This game has way too many variables to constantly be trying to balance. Find one that is close enough and be done with it. You guys have been great, but you need to know when to take a step back.
people laugh at the developers because they always talk about what's "more interesting to watch" rather than what actually helps the gameplay
but they do tend to react and address things that affect the win rate at high levels. and the tweaks are extremely minor.
they don't even pretend the game is balanced beyond 1v1 on extremely similar maps, so it's a pretty easy job
the dirty secret is that matchmaking is what keeps SC2 "balanced", not Blizzard's skills as a developer
Blizzard only has to balance for the highest level because everyone else will be at a 50% win rate.
We're talking about NS2 here. How many players do you think you actually have down there? 75 % of all NS2 players live in the USA and in Europe, thus it's going to be way more noticeable if they take a break than if players elsewhere do. I myself live in a small country and have no problem with other peoples, including you. But your inferiority complex doesn't change these facts, mate.
Why do you assume that the OP lives in the southern hemisphere? As most people know, decline is normal in any game, including NS2. So the fact that the OP decides to create a topic now in which he complains about an especially severe decline "as of late" probably means that it's something not tied to the normal decline, such as the current season. The last two months is when people in Europe and the US usually go on vacation.
The fact that you consider this a myth suggests that you simply haven't studied these things, which is understandable as it's hardly a common hobby. Gaming-activity is very much affected by season. Even more so during the last ten years in fact, as the employed casual gamer has been growing like crazy during this time. Whether or not this is what's been affecting NS2 as of late could be discussed forever. Those of us who believe in stats and historical facts have reasons to believe they are seasonal. Those who lack such knowledge obviously blame it on whatever otherwise makes the most sense to them. The games you mention have an enormous amount of players compared to NS2 which tells us that they very well may have a general increase in players, rather than player activity per player. NS2 hardly has a similar momentum apart from during the sales.
Regardless, either side of this spectrum have nothing but speculation to go on. So your theories are just as valid as mine. Apart from the research i've done, almost every person on my friends list who plays NS2 regularly, which consists of almost 50 people, have been on vacation recently and started gaming a lot again once they came back. You don't even have to start the game to notice the seasonal decline; it's right there in the friends-list.
These are of course interesting stats. But i do think there's quite a flaw in your basis; you assume that the NS2 player-base consists of age-groups similar to those of the other games you mentioned. This is nothing but experience (of which 600+ hours is accounted for), but i've never come across a game in which the teenage/student-to-adult ratio is as low as in NS2. The youngest player i know is 19 and the youngest i've ever heard of 15. Apart from them, the average age looking at the ENSL rosters and the amount of people using voice-com who certainly haven't seen a pimple in the mirror in many a year are staggering. Frankly i think that's one of the most attractive things about the game.
I don't think that you can count NS2 as a game whom's player-activity should rise during summer and decline once school-season begins. It's more likely the other way around, whether or not a flat-out disliking of the game is part of the recent decline or not, which i'm certainly not disputing.
@Tom_Hanks13 First of all, new players will come in playing the game with the current updated gameplay mechanic meaning they won't be relearning anything, just learning. Secondly, I'm not sure what is so hard to learn for a "veteran" (if you actually are one). It took me 5 minutes to relearn the fade and lerk. I like the skulk better now and the marines and onos hasn't changed at all. Now you may be talking about the commander play, but if you were actually having fun playing as the alien comm pre-250 then I feel sorry for you. Your life must have been extremely boring and tedious if that was enjoyable, and maybe gardening is better suited for you. What I mean is I applaud the devs being nice enough to dedicate their time and money into improving a game that for all intensive purposes was becoming very boring. They added a new map, new abilities, new strats, and all for free. Balance is a hard issue, yes, but they still care enough to work on it. And I'd rather have a fun interesting game than a boring balanced one any day.
Actually, I don't think summer has any real impact on this game whatsoever. But I did cite the other games as proof that games shouldn't see declines in summer in general and the charts do suggest just that. Games should see increases in summer holding all other factors constant.
If that's so, we shouldn't see any seasonal changes outside of holidays (which do show up in Steam Charts, no one was playing on New Year's Eve). Summer shouldn't matter at all if teenagers and college students aren't the people in the game. Blaming summer when the player base is not effected by school sessions isn't a good argument.
I did met some 12 year olds in the game. Or they were trolls using voice changers, I can't be sure. One particularly annoying kid sounded like he was just starting puberty. But I do get the feeling that game isn't dependent on teenagers. Hence why I don't think summer has anything to do with the decline in the population. You can't blame summer on the game's dropping population.
If what you say is true about the player base, school sessions shouldn't impact the game in any noticeable way. Thus, it's something else that is causing the declines.
I did some math on the retention rates and it's bad.
Yeah, but Activison-Blizzard does spend the time to make sure balance is as perfect as they can get it before release. I've never felt that any strategy game that Blizzard released was significantly unbalanced at its core. Warcraft 1, Warcraft II, Sc1, Sc2, nothing seriously unbalanced.
What RTS games are balanced for more than 1 on 1? Sins of a Solar Empire is definitely not. Ganging up on one player is unbalanced period. Red Alert isn't balanced for more than 1 on 1. They can't control people from failing to support their ally who's being double or tripled teamed.
My 2 cents.
Arcticfoxx
In SC2 you can practise your mechanics, check a replay, spectate a tournament or watch the Day[9] daily. All these show you how better players manage to do things. In MMORPGs or RPGs you might grind up that next character level or item. Even meaningless achievements might have a very positive placebo effect.
NS2 doesn't have that much going on with that kind of progression. It doesn't have unlockables, it doesn't have much insightful high level content, it doesn't have analytical tools. When people can't figure out their next step, they get frustrated. Combine the frustration with seemingly bonkers balance stats and you've got the situation we've got here.
The balance numbers definitely aren't pretty, but it's partitially the community structure and ingame information feed that make the balance percentages get into such an unpleasant spotlight.
Nope, summer changes EVERYTHING. Kids not in school, families taking holidays, young adults who haven't yet got children taking holidays, people either choosing to work more (because traffic is better as the kids aren't at school), or not work so much and take more breaks...
Plus there's the weather: long summer nights are less conducive to playing games in a stuffy (possibly darkened, but maybe not, in which case it's too bright) room, especially when it's REALLY hot, which it has been at times here in Europe this summer.
I'm 33, I have a 1 year old boy, and a massive commute. My boss is currently on holiday, which means my workload at the minute is insane and I've found it difficult to play as a result.
There are many more factors than whether you are a kid going to school, or a uni student etc.
I don't remember Blizzard adding any new units or abilities during the life of SC2 Wings of Liberty. At most they removed or added higher tech upgrades and fiddled with a few numbers.
The gamestyle changed on ladder even without patches just from new styles appearing from the pros and being copied which pushed out old builds.
Hopefully.
At least there is servers to join every time I play, If that's the case I am content with it
That doesn't explain why the other games aren't showing the same behavior. Hence why I linked them. The other top games are all showing either no changes or increasing in activity. Except for NS2. What's your explanation as to why games from Civ 5, to CSGo, Skyrim, Borderlands 2 and others aren't seeing a summer drop?
Still doesn't make any sense considering the massive heat waves in the US as well. Not seeing declines in other games.
Okay, what's your argument for why NS2 is not seeing the same trends as other games? Does NS2 live in a world that doesn't have the same issues that every other game faces? Give me a break here and find a reasonable explanation that doesn't require suspension of disbelief. Summer has nothing to do with the decline.
Recent very very good humble bundle (again combined with a small community: those games you listed are huge and will be somewhat more resistant to such changes)
Maybe the average player age in NS2 is higher than those other games? Do we have more people at work and fewer kids off for the summer? After all, many here played NS1, which was a few years ago!
That's 3 possible reasons, none of which requires 'suspension of disbelief' (lol like an alien invasion has targeted NS2 players or something). They might not be contributory factors at all, though it's possible...
And trying to join a full server isn't that fun either..... it usually takes a while before someone quits and a spot opens up, and even then you might not get that spot.
There is no queuing system and you can't tell how many people is fighting that same spot as you.
This is so true and so sad because how complicated can it be to make a queueing system that actually is a queueing system and not just a lottery where whoever pings the server at the right time wins?!?
Look at the percent changes. Only Borderlands 2 has the same kind of double digit drop from the past 30 days. The rest are up. When compared on a percentage basis, only BL2 and NS2 are seeing major declines.
Again, on a percentage change basis, only 2 games I listed are seeing severe drops.
If the average players in NS2 isn't affected by school seasonal changes, we shouldn't see summer impact the game at all. On top of that, the decline in players seems to be moving at the normal rate, especially when compared to the Gorgeous Update, after you remove the two major player drops from the recent two sales. It's looking like the game has only picked up a net 100 players for all of the sames. That's embarrassing. I'm seeing right now the peak between Aug 21 and Aug 22 908 players which is actually worse than after the first sale of 912 and a tad bit better than 800 or so players playing before the sale.
The first two are invalid when you look at a percentage change compared to other games. Smaller player base vs larger player basis is irrelevant on a percentage to percentage basis. As for the older crowd, that should actually show no summer changes.
Seriously, it's not summer as to why the game is moving swiftly back to pre-sale numbers. As predicted, once the sales end, the player base drops back to what it was. Now the question is the game picked up enough new players to compensate for the loss of veterans who hate Build 250+.
My 2 cents.
I do believe there is another thing that adds (not the main argument). The more i play the more i see on one side "legit vets" and cheaters. I'm surprised that cheaters entered the realm. The audience numbers should have prevented it. Now we have proof there ARE some cheaters and we have now "NS2BANS.COM". That sounds bad.
-Thought i manage to deal with these cheaters by winning (me and the team) and make them look ridiculous. I can't help asking myself what will be the next kind of cheats in the next 2 weeks. It's not encouraging me to play more.
-This is embarrassing for legit players that just are good (positioning in rooms, anticipating etc.) and get the "cheater" sticker on their back just for being good. I still manage to kill them as i am a bastard skulk. Sorry i can't help it...
But...
-A rookie that get into this environment "legit Vets", cheater, and people who accuse them, isn't the best "first contact". Why playing if the game is full of cheater. If you bought NS2 to fly away from a game full of cheaters... you don't like what you see.
-People ultimately see this more often as population drop. The % of cheater increase as population drops. You need only one accusation to ruin the mood of a entire server.
UWE should really do something about it. Code more in the game to secure it in place of making more maps and modifications. It looks like UWE don't have any coders at all (keybindings are still a mess). Once you have the functionalities (passive for recording better, active for proper detection), this would be somehow breathable in there and a way better atmosphere.
Since I have never seen (/ noticed) anyone cheating yet, I've watched the proof videos on ns2bans.com. Sure, they can track perfectly, but they are usually still just rookies, who have no clue about positioning and meta game.
Their accuracy can easily be overcome with clever team play of 2 or 3 aliens.
I'd say that is one of the reasons why cheaters are so rare in this game. Aimbotting does not guarantee winning. You still might get stomped just like the rest of the team.
It stills improves individual performances that add to the whole team performance. Clever teamwork should only be focused on the game, not considering a spotted cheater. Every game have a cheating (Aimbot, 3rdparty)/exploit (pink skulk in shadows) problem. STEAM VAC, Punkbuster and others aren't made for nothing. Even if there was no problem on NS2, i would vote for a "sentry". Better safe than sorry.
The problem isn't cheating in itself, it's the way it brings suspicion to any other "legit", the way it makes the atmosphere reek.
Reinforced definitely sends some message and gives a hype boost, but I feel many long term inactives are more looking for structural changes than just raw extra content. The interest is more on the BT mod kind of things than completely new stuff.
Even if VAC and consistency checking would detect/deny any cheating, the next random internet stranger would still accuse you of cheating if you dare to play better than him.
In that case we would be able to rely on something that "shields" a little, at least. Here we have nothing except ns2ban.com. sad...