Descent - Update?

DeskLamp

I know I'm not bringing up anything new here but I feel that given the length of time since its release that it needs to be further discussed.

When Descent was first released I thought the map was great despite the negativity of players towards it. It looked great and resulted in some very fun encounters.

With build 250 though I have found that it is extremely difficult to win as marine, particularly if aliens are any way decent in the first minutes of the game. Now I just find it hard to enjoy Descent when I know that if I pick marines our team is almost guaranteed to lose. Further it seems that others feel the same way, as most servers in Aus don't have it on the map rotation any more.

Please do something to address the balance issues on this map. I love the concepts, the visuals, and many of the rooms, but it needs to be looked into.

Some thoughts I have are:
- Connections between rooms are too narrow and provide too many opportunities for aliens to get the jump on marines
- Many of the rooms / connections have steep stairs which provide perfect opportunities for ambushing and holding
- While the distance to travel to areas of influence may not seem extensive, the pathing to reach each of them is not a smooth process

I'm sure there are people with more expert view than myself. I just want this amazing looking map to be played more often, rather then being removed from servers altogether.

If any work is currently in the process it would be great to know...

Vetinari

ns2stats says it's not that bad: http://ns2stats.org/map/map/74

DeskLamp

Hmm I was all ready to argue against that but the % do seem consistent across maps (Aliens ftw). Maybe I've just had a bad run on the map and since they've removed it from most servers I don't get enough opportunity to play it relative to other maps.

Just whatever you do, don't spawn in drone bay as marine (32% chance of winning).

Nailo

Have you ever tried a full base relocate? send 1 marines in each direction away from your base and send the rest to hydro and build up a full base there. I haven't tried it myself but I've seen the pro's do it once or twice, plus that would give you immediate map control if you managed to hold Hydro as you can hit energy, observation, gravity, and plaza with ease ^_^

Starstrider

Nailo wrote: »

Have you ever tried a full base relocate? send 1 marines in each direction away from your base and send the rest to hydro and build up a full base there. I haven't tried it myself but I've seen the pro's do it once or twice, plus that would give you immediate map control if you managed to hold Hydro as you can hit energy, observation, gravity, and plaza with ease ^_^

I do this about 3/4 of the time I command marines. That's the part of the map I hate the most: other maps have central locations that give strategic advantages (Central Drilling, Nanogrid), but none of them give such a big positional advantage as Hydroanalysis. In pub games I've played, the team who locks down Hydro wins the game the VAST majority of the time. If your on aliens and you start in Launch Control or Fabrication, and allow the marines to get Hydro, you are FUCKED. They can hit Gravity, Energy, and Plaza the entire game, while circumventing the large travel distances that the map seems to favor.

Descent is the most boring map because of how pivotal Hydro is... in my opinion.

DeskLamp

So it's not so much the implausibility of winning, as the limited strategies available to do so given the map layout?

Nailo

So would you then be in favor of maps like docking and tram where they see the least amount of fighting for said "central" areas? Its just a game design that is important to note and really neither team should allow the other to hold said area because of the benefits such a position has.

All maps have key positions in them that offer tempting benefits such as nano, lavafalls, hydro, hub, locker. These offer extra resources, a quick reinforcement to the front lines, or perhaps having said position shifts the front lines to your advantage. Some also offer increased mobility, or can give one team a good defensive position. Hence why they are always fought over.

As marines, abuse areas that are considered of little strategic value or see no enemy movement once lost due to a shift in the front lines. (and by abuse I mean ruin an aliens day by dropping a ninja phase) examples: Heatsink when aliens have pipe and containment, or routing when aliens have turbine and smelting.

Almost every room in veil has some strategic value In having a phase gate so if your desperate just try anywhere, dome, cargo (even if they have it already), east junction, west junction, overlook, the neck, ectera.

Marines had a nerf recently because they have the ridicules ability to come back even if forced into a last stand scenario on 1 base.

On the alien side of things I'm almost forced to put a drifter in every room late game to keep an eye out for sneaky ninjas.

Starstrider

I can only speak from experience, and in my experience, the team that holds Hydro wins the vast majority of the time. I'm not against strategic points in the middle of maps, but it gets really boring when every single match you play on the map is "bum-rush this spot and whoever gets it is 90% of the way to winning". Since its such an advantageous position for marines (they can even spawn there!), the aliens must keep them out. If the marines can't get it, they're forced to hoof it around this huge map while aliens constantly hit their back RTs. If the marines do get it, and get an IP or two up there, then all they have to do is harass alien res towers until the inevitable Exosuits are out. It also allows them to initiate easy two-pronged attacks on every other tech point from a single location. And easily kill every RT that isn't inside of a tech point. It's very hard to stand up to that.

It's just so GOOD. So good that every game I command on that map, I make it my #1 priority, and that becomes a little stale after a while. Surely you understand that? I just find the map flow of Descent to be boring.

DISCLAIMER: All of the above has come through pub games; I can't speak to competitive balance at all.

bERt0r

The thing about descent is that that central map position is a tech point which makes it easier to turtle there and increases the value of that central position even more.

Okxyd

Yeah, Hydro is the nevralgic point of the map for marines, most of the time if we don't take it we lose, the fact is hydro is very easy to defend or attack as alien, on the contrary of a lava, a crossroads or a hub room. But my main problem is the asymetry between north and south of the map, the Fabrication spawn prevent rines to pressure aliens and is very too far from the others tech point, on the contrary near Drone Bay it´s the paradise for skulks ambush, it´s intentionnal but it´s not working very well, it reminds me a lot Mineshaft pre patch in fact: too many ways on a side, not enough for the other.