Why would you need to strip those mechanics out - they quite nicely complement wallhopping without adding major speed increases. I personally would like to see them increased slightly in importance, similar to older versions of the BT movement - where max speed movement required a combination of good route planning to maximize turning radius, good strafe movement and wallhopping to gain speed and good spacing to maintain your speed.
As for the pros of the buttjumping, both good route planning and speed variety were satisfied in older versions of the BT movement, its just much of that speed was gutted to preserve balance. Your entire argument comes down to the skulk being too slow without the movement, which I can agree with, so argue about that.
The fact that people here are really trying to justify the butt jumping mechanic as something that was genuinely skill based is so laughable its actually sad. There was absolutely 0 additional skill required to perform the butt jumping over standard wallhopping, it was 100% game knowledge. By all means continue to delude yourselves about a mechanic you have little understanding of, but at least attempt to have a valid point.
One could definitely argue that learning, planning, and properly executing routes through the map is more skill based than the current boring-as-fuck space spam that we have. The actual mechanic didn't require much more skill though, it's the route planning and execution that makes a difference imo.
I'm fine with this being taken out if skulk speed is buffed, but the removal of this has made me significantly less interested in NS2. This got me excited about the game for the first time in months, now we're back to the boring, slow as shit vanilla wall jump.
As much as i miss how responsive and creatively free the old walljump was, in hindsight it was op as hell lol. Totally broke the speed/predictability tradeoff rule. But maan was it fun.
Why would you need to strip those mechanics out - they quite nicely complement wallhopping without adding major speed increases. I personally would like to see them increased slightly in importance, similar to older versions of the BT movement - where max speed movement required a combination of good route planning to maximize turning radius, good strafe movement and wallhopping to gain speed and good spacing to maintain your speed.
As for the pros of the buttjumping, both good route planning and speed variety were satisfied in older versions of the BT movement, its just much of that speed was gutted to preserve balance. Your entire argument comes down to the skulk being too slow without the movement, which I can agree with, so argue about that.
The fact that people here are really trying to justify the butt jumping mechanic as something that was genuinely skill based is so laughable its actually sad. There was absolutely 0 additional skill required to perform the butt jumping over standard wallhopping, it was 100% game knowledge. By all means continue to delude yourselves about a mechanic you have little understanding of, but at least attempt to have a valid point.
Yay! It's another of xDragon's Unwarranted Personal Attacks(TM).
The skulk speed difference isn't too much of a big deal for me, actually. I think the skulk speed right now is more or less all right. Maybe it could do with a small buff, not too sure tbh, I'd like to see that playtested before suggesting it's required. The buttjump skulk DID need a speed cap to be imposed, which I already mentioned. In fact, the routing required for butt jumping was quite different to that required for BT movement, and I liked that: you needed to take different routes in certain spots, eg comp-sub-vent if you were to put the butt jump in sub, you'd aim for the wall just before the stairs leading to the maintenance access entrance, and another to get over the railing into ventilation. But if that wasn't lining up (for whatever reason), you'd maintain speed normally without that additional butt jump and then the best route through that section would change.
The variation that involved was at least slightly more interesting than the non-buttjump version we're left with on its own, where there is one and only one decent way to move through any section of any map.
I will of course bow down to your ultimate and superior knowledge, just as soon as you get off your high horse and lose that utterly revolting attitude you exude. Here's a pro-tip for you: it doesn't make you look smart
ZZZ stick to banning people from your servers, its much funner to respond to.
As I said before, I liked the older walljump from BT that did require all the things you highlight as benefits of 'buttjumping', which include route planning and speed variations, along with also requiring good strafe movements and clever use of height for falling accel. Those mechanics were something that took time to master, and equally as such actually offered some quite interesting potential. Butt jumping didn't have nearly as much potential, simply because the only variation would be caused by fucking up, otherwise yes you would take a different route then standard wallhop, but it was the same route every single other buttjumper would take.
If i was going to personally attack you I would, infact i left that comment vague for that very reason. Many people have been trying to say, for some reason, that buttjumping takes more skill. There is no additional skill requirement in learning map routes or learning a minimum mouse angle, its just game knowledge. There is a small adjustment period for someone used to standard wallhopping to learn buttjumping, but that has nothing to do with a 'higher skill requirement'.
Beyond that, I have at no time said that the standard walljumping is 'better' than buttjumping was, quite honestly I can agree its boring, simply because its both slower and monotonous. That doesn't make buttjumping the answer however, improvements to the basic walljumping is the answer.
And your a little late eh, the mechanic has already been removed.
Oh wow, I forgot I made that video. I actually loved that implementation of walljump the most as the route planning & multiple chains was quite difficult to pull off.
I guess it is all about practice, but wanting an insanely hard way to jump with secret tricks to get that extra speed boost in strange ways.. come on. Don't you need to look for marines instead of boxes, walls and sharp turns? This isn't nascar in space hehe...
With that in mind I thought it was perfect with butt-jumping. Not to hard for casuals to get into. But they could've capped the speed a little bit as people suggested earlier.
TF2 has ridiculous, completely unintuitive rocket (and other) jumping techniques, and it is far more awesome for it.
What? I don't even
What's more intuitive than a rocket exploding at your feet sending you flying? Even if you don't think to try it yourself you will see others doing it, and it's overly clear what they're doing. "Buttjumping" is so non-obvious, along with most other NS2 movement tricks, that even if you see other players doing it you most probably won't see what they're actually doing, especially in normal gameplay.
Shooting rocket at your feet sends you flying -> intuitive.
Shooting rocket at your feet and crouch jumping at the right time sends you flying further -> ok, still kinda intuitive.
While in the air, crouch strafe and mouse movement gives you incredible amounts of air control (enough to zig-zag past obstacles) -> uhhh..
Combining the various techniques allows you to repeatedly wall jump off the same wall (think about it, you're shooting at a wall, but instead of flying off it, you're climbing up or moving along the same wall) -> In your words. What? I don't even.
Cut out a big chunk of skulk air control so you can't repeatedly jump off of one wall, leave the walljumping controls as-is, but make the minimum angle of walljump include a minimum 30 degree gap from the wall, maximum 80 (in the direction you're facing) and increase the speed boost a bit and the speed cap a tiny bit. Boom, butt jumping with slightly more intuitive mechanics, more interesting combat possibilities, and unlike build 228 you can't gain a preposterous amount of speed without a lot of skill and map knowledge because you wont be able to choose your wall and direction as much. Maybe mouse movement like facing away from the wall or a twitch could be added to increase the skill cap or allow for aiming the jump a bit. Specific numbers like where you can walljump while moving in which direction, speed boost, speed cap, and air control could easily be tweaked until it is not op.
Just brainstorming. Lots of possibilities here and Unknown seems to be trying things out still so the mechanic might get deeper.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2013
The TF2 rocket / demo jump nuances are pretty fun to play around with though. It's a nice example of not so well known mechanics that make the classes movement more enjoyable to master over a longer period of time.
ZZZ stick to banning people from your servers, its much funner to respond to.
...
And your a little late eh, the mechanic has already been removed.
Don't know if that first comment was aimed at me, but I haven't run or in any way adminned an NS server in about a decade!
Yes indeed, it's too late now that it's been removed (that comment was aimed at eh? but applies to all of us who liked the mechanic). I was expressing my disappointment at that removal, which is my subjective opinion to which I am entitled. I personally enjoyed the buttjump technique in addition to the normal walljumping/strafejumping more than the current, more limited movement. It is good, though, that you still can pull off the buttjump angles, as that gives a genuine utility to the mechanic in combat (allowing for faster changes of direction than otherwise).
If there are ways to improve the current walljumping to make it less tedious, then I would naturally support those, too.
By your arguments of skill, then I'm really not convinced that any movement mechanic in any game ever would actually fall into a 'skillful' category. They're all essentially just game knowledge when you break it down far enough.
There is no additional skill requirement in learning map routes
I agree that it doesn't require skill to learn them, but to properly execute them would ideally require more skill than what we have currently. I'd like to see a system that allowed you to move quickly, was easy to learn how to do, but required proper route planning and execution in order to pull off for any length of time. Sort of like how skiing in Tribes works if that makes any sense. I mean, obviously it wouldn't actually be like skiing, but it would rely on map knowledge and the ability to improvise in order to keep your speed up.
Comments
*Chocolate wall jump
Yay! It's another of xDragon's Unwarranted Personal Attacks(TM).
The skulk speed difference isn't too much of a big deal for me, actually. I think the skulk speed right now is more or less all right. Maybe it could do with a small buff, not too sure tbh, I'd like to see that playtested before suggesting it's required. The buttjump skulk DID need a speed cap to be imposed, which I already mentioned. In fact, the routing required for butt jumping was quite different to that required for BT movement, and I liked that: you needed to take different routes in certain spots, eg comp-sub-vent if you were to put the butt jump in sub, you'd aim for the wall just before the stairs leading to the maintenance access entrance, and another to get over the railing into ventilation. But if that wasn't lining up (for whatever reason), you'd maintain speed normally without that additional butt jump and then the best route through that section would change.
The variation that involved was at least slightly more interesting than the non-buttjump version we're left with on its own, where there is one and only one decent way to move through any section of any map.
I will of course bow down to your ultimate and superior knowledge, just as soon as you get off your high horse and lose that utterly revolting attitude you exude. Here's a pro-tip for you: it doesn't make you look smart
Love etc
Roo
As I said before, I liked the older walljump from BT that did require all the things you highlight as benefits of 'buttjumping', which include route planning and speed variations, along with also requiring good strafe movements and clever use of height for falling accel. Those mechanics were something that took time to master, and equally as such actually offered some quite interesting potential. Butt jumping didn't have nearly as much potential, simply because the only variation would be caused by fucking up, otherwise yes you would take a different route then standard wallhop, but it was the same route every single other buttjumper would take.
If i was going to personally attack you I would, infact i left that comment vague for that very reason. Many people have been trying to say, for some reason, that buttjumping takes more skill. There is no additional skill requirement in learning map routes or learning a minimum mouse angle, its just game knowledge. There is a small adjustment period for someone used to standard wallhopping to learn buttjumping, but that has nothing to do with a 'higher skill requirement'.
Beyond that, I have at no time said that the standard walljumping is 'better' than buttjumping was, quite honestly I can agree its boring, simply because its both slower and monotonous. That doesn't make buttjumping the answer however, improvements to the basic walljumping is the answer.
And your a little late eh, the mechanic has already been removed.
With that in mind I thought it was perfect with butt-jumping. Not to hard for casuals to get into. But they could've capped the speed a little bit as people suggested earlier.
Shooting rocket at your feet sends you flying -> intuitive.
Shooting rocket at your feet and crouch jumping at the right time sends you flying further -> ok, still kinda intuitive.
While in the air, crouch strafe and mouse movement gives you incredible amounts of air control (enough to zig-zag past obstacles) -> uhhh..
Combining the various techniques allows you to repeatedly wall jump off the same wall (think about it, you're shooting at a wall, but instead of flying off it, you're climbing up or moving along the same wall) -> In your words. What? I don't even.
Just brainstorming. Lots of possibilities here and Unknown seems to be trying things out still so the mechanic might get deeper.
Don't know if that first comment was aimed at me, but I haven't run or in any way adminned an NS server in about a decade!
Yes indeed, it's too late now that it's been removed (that comment was aimed at eh? but applies to all of us who liked the mechanic). I was expressing my disappointment at that removal, which is my subjective opinion to which I am entitled. I personally enjoyed the buttjump technique in addition to the normal walljumping/strafejumping more than the current, more limited movement. It is good, though, that you still can pull off the buttjump angles, as that gives a genuine utility to the mechanic in combat (allowing for faster changes of direction than otherwise).
If there are ways to improve the current walljumping to make it less tedious, then I would naturally support those, too.
By your arguments of skill, then I'm really not convinced that any movement mechanic in any game ever would actually fall into a 'skillful' category. They're all essentially just game knowledge when you break it down far enough.
I agree that it doesn't require skill to learn them, but to properly execute them would ideally require more skill than what we have currently. I'd like to see a system that allowed you to move quickly, was easy to learn how to do, but required proper route planning and execution in order to pull off for any length of time. Sort of like how skiing in Tribes works if that makes any sense. I mean, obviously it wouldn't actually be like skiing, but it would rely on map knowledge and the ability to improvise in order to keep your speed up.