More Fun To Lose As Humans Than Aliens

DekanDekan Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9623Members
Someone mentioned this in a game, and I think it has a lot to due with why the marines always seem to have more people on their team than aliens do, and why many times the 'line' into the marines from the readyroom is jammed. I've never seen the line into the aliens filled.

Basically, it's more fun to lose as a marine than an alien. This is partly due to how much more powerful a strong, equpped human is over a weak alien than a strong alien is over a weak, unequipped human.

Humans, once they get the arms lab upgrades, always keep them, and they remain a potent force until the end. They can stave off the final alien assault for quite a while, welding stuff, being healed, etc. There is even hope to strike back at aliens by merely taking out a hive by getting three people to fly to one with jetpacks and hmgs. You'll generally see the whole marine team stick with it until the end; there is always the opportunity for a quick strike back that turns the tide.

However, aliens, down to just one hive, are incredibly demoralized. The final assault by humans is just utterly unstoppable or even slowed. Their defenses will be utterly destroyed by siege/hmgs/gls. Down to just one hive, you'll rarely see more than a few players left on the aliens. The rest know it's over, and have left to the readyroom, because they know there is no chance of getting back a hive. Aliens just can't strike back enough to get a hive and build it in time for a second chance.

This is just observation, however, and I really have no good ideas on how to solve the issue. But I do think there is a legitimate problem with the morale difference between losing aliens vs losing humans.


  • RavlenRavlen Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7713Members
    Personally, I HATE the loss as a marine. When they have three hives and we're pinned in our base with no hope of winning, I'd rather just have the game end so we can play again.

    I don't understand people who enjoy camping base, doing nothing but waiting for the end. What's the fun in that? The marines lost, get over it, everyone hit F4 and we'll play again. Waiting 30-40 minutes for the aliens to finish you off because the commander dropped 40 turrets in front of a door is not fun, it is BORING.

    When you lose as aliens, you generally just lose, you can play again. I don't mind being killed by a HA if I'm a lowly skulk because I only have one hive, that's fine. The game will be over soon, we can play again. sitting on my butt waiting for the end SUCKS.

  • DekanDekan Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9623Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Ravlen+Nov 22 2002, 03:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ravlen @ Nov 22 2002, 03:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally, I HATE the loss as a marine. When they have three hives and we're pinned in our base with no hope of winning, I'd rather just have the game end so we can play again.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The thing is, I've taken a third hive out *twice* as marines when they had us pinned in our base. We still had a remote phase gate up, took 3 people with jetpacks and hmgs, sped to their hive, and took it down with 10 seconds of firing. And once the hive is down, you can build an expansion base *very* quickly, especially if you get a phase gate up and get everyone to come through.

    So, for me, I always have hope as a marine, but none as alien.
  • RavlenRavlen Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7713Members
    If you had a remote phase gate, then you weren't pinned in your base, were you?

  • DekanDekan Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9623Members
    edited November 2002
    <!--QuoteBegin--Ravlen+Nov 22 2002, 03:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ravlen @ Nov 22 2002, 03:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you had a remote phase gate, then you weren't pinned in your base, were you?

    Ravlen<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    True, we weren't *physically* pinned, but my team was largely *psychologically* pinned had pretty much given up, as onos were starting to hit our main base. They were working too hard defending the main base, and didn't realize the quick strike we could perform until I rallied a couple with me. And it wasn't like the phase gate was right by their hive; that's why we neeeded jetpacks.

    Actually the second time wasn't with an existing remote phase gate, but rather just me with a jetpack, flying out and then building a phase gate near a hive so that we could siege it.
  • RavlenRavlen Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7713Members
    I'm talking about being physically pinned. Fades / Lerks, Onos outside base with a wall of defensive turrest too far away to seige.... half the time the aliens just rush in one at a time, so that they either die or have to run away, and the marines just sit and wait, bored like mad.

    I've taken out third hives many times, just did it 20 minutes ago with a squad of LA LMG marines, but that's because we weren't pinned.

    If I'm commander, and the team is completely and utterly pinned, I'd rather recycle the spawns so we can play another game. No fun in just waiting for death, not able to leave, not able to attack, not able to do anything.

    I'd rather be playing.

  • bitninebitnine Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9283Members
    Yeah, it's a definate tendancy. Winning marines can blast the last remaining hive to shreds. They can build up sieging stations and destroy the hive from afar, and have very little to worry about lerks overpowering their HA marines and scores of turrets. Winning aliens can be held off for hours by grenade spam and hundreds of turrets and welding marines. It's related to the fact that aliens loose power as they lose hives, whereas the marines cannot have their power similarly revoked. Compounded to this is that bile bomb is not fully functional, that sieges are much more effective weapons that deny aliens the ability to fully turtle up, and that marines can have an unlimited number of turrets in an area.

    Whereas I'm not going to complain too much about the way this balances during the course of the game mostly (I still think that marines should have a turret limit in general), this has a particular effect at the end of the game so that marine victories fall into place quickly, whereas alien victories can be delayed so long that many people get bored and give up.
  • Secret_NinjaSecret_Ninja Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9286Members
    Those points are all true. I generally play alien more than marine simply because I join the team with fewer players (we all know that story). Anyways, winning as an alien usually requires some huge onslaught of onos' and fades and maybe some any case, a team effort. Winning as marines, on the other hand...well, once you have the aliens down to one hive, two HA HMG marines welding each other with good commander oversight will absolutely obliterate anything and everything they run into. There is absolutely nothing you can do as a skulk to stop even a single upgraded HA marine (unless of course you are skilled like a mofo). The endgame for a losing alien team isn't rewarding at all. At least as a marine, you can maybe bag a fade or two if you're lucky.
  • JujiJuji Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9153Members
    I think the reason why marines aren't getting utterly demolished once aliens have 3 hives up and all the resource nodes on the map, is the fact that xenocide and bile bombs aren't doing the correct damage to buildings.

    Once those are fixed, I don't think you will be seeing marines last very long after aliens get 3 hives.
  • Paladyne-TPFPaladyne-TPF Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7762Members
    I don't know, it's somewhat fun destroying buildings and such as the winning force; it feels good to clear out all enemy structures and players, and survey a newly cleared map.

    On the opposite end, it's still fun trying to hold off the attackers if you have a decent team. If you don't, it's usually better to join the ready room and let them reap the rewards of their own stupidity. <!--emo&:D--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

    I should also point out that it's possible to salvage a losing game from both sides, but it's still difficult. Marines must throw together a small team of elite soldiers that know enough to go directly to the hive; do not pass go, do not collect $200. Aliens need a couple ninja skulks to bypass the marines and their defenses to munch on the crunchy insides. I do think that taking down the appropriate structure should (temporarily) remove the upgrades as well; no observatory, no motion tracking until it's put back up. No arms lab, no extra armor or damage until it gets replaced. This would make it somewhat easier for aliens to turn the game around. Keep in mind that killing players isn't the goal, destroying structures is. If you hit the appropriate base structure, most or all of the opposition's players will pull back to defend. If they don't, count yourself lucky and cripple them. <!--emo&:D--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • BigwigBigwig Join Date: 2002-10-27 Member: 1646Members
    It's fun losing as marines because it feels like you're being swarmed (starship troopers, aliens). Losing as aliens isn't fun because it's just a bunch of HA marines marching into your base and obliterating everything, and you are helpless to do anything about it.
  • GibbyGibby Join Date: 2002-04-26 Member: 518Members
    From the mouth of a strictly-alien player (me):

    Marines WILL stave off that final assault. Especially on that map with the Mess Hall, they've got naught but to spam that tunnel with turrets.

    I'm sure any player will say, losing sucks no matter what team you're on. Though marines do have a better chance at the end to win than the Aliens.
  • WindelkronWindelkron Join Date: 2002-04-11 Member: 419Members
    Yeah. Marine players have to admit it, it is FUN having your base overrun. If you hate losing as a marine, you shouldn't have built 50 turrets in your base that kill the Onos that are trying to make it quick for you.

    Losing as an alien... sucks. You're right, it is quite demoralizing when your attacks do nothing (literally) against the HA, and you die in ~3 shots (HMGs :\ ). <!--emo&:(--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->

    you know what I think... I think aliens should have all of the weapons available from the beginning (1st hive). However with only 1 hive these abilities are very weak as they get more complicated (so 1 hive xenocide would be pretty weak, 1 hive leap a little weak, 1 hive parasite normal, 1 hive bite normal). Losing as an alien would be more fun if you had the option to run to them in droves and at least blow yourself up, instead of just getting gunned down again.. and again... and again...
  • WolfWolf Join Date: 2002-08-07 Member: 1100Members
    I love it when a marine gets the bright idea to knife a newly-secured hive that isn't "secure" with offensive chambers.

    Since I'm a Lerk as much as possible, I am there within seconds and have a nice Marine breast fillet.
  • preacherpreacher Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5130Members
    i play aliens mostly and would be **obscenity**, if near the end, all the marines hit f4. there goes our hour worth of work and dont even get to enjoy the spoils.
  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    edited November 2002
    <!--QuoteBegin--Windelkron+Nov 22 2002, 11:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Windelkron @ Nov 22 2002, 11:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you know what I think... I think aliens should have all of the weapons available from the beginning (1st hive).  However with only 1 hive these abilities are very weak as they get more complicated (so 1 hive xenocide would be pretty weak, 1 hive leap a little weak, 1 hive parasite normal, 1 hive bite normal).  Losing as an alien would be more fun if you had the option to run to them in droves and at least blow yourself up, instead of just getting gunned down again.. and again... and again...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Wow. Even at 1:00 AM you can make me laugh out loud. Just what I want: Instead of a horde of little skulks coming out of the air ducts and through the doorways you have Ohnos climbing up your butt and fades ripping the commander chair apart before anyone eevn gets in it.
  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--preacher+Nov 23 2002, 01:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (preacher @ Nov 23 2002, 01:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i play aliens mostly and would be **obscenity**, if near the end, all the marines hit f4. there goes our hour worth of work and dont even get to enjoy the spoils.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    By 'the end' you mean when you get the 2nd hive built and have access to the most powerful alien (IMO) in the game? <!--emo&:D--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • preacherpreacher Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5130Members
    second hive, third hive, doesnt matter. if the marines end the game themselves, that would be messed up for the aliens not being able to do what they have been working to do. the majority of the aliens offense, imo happens after the second hive anyways. i can picture a marine now: (say team) *Player* Oh damn, I just seen a fade, everyone hit f4.
  • VoltaisVoltais Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8673Members
    In My Opinion, the biggest dullness about losing as an alien is the spawn timers;

    The Marines can build as many infantry portals as they want, hence as many spawn points as they want. The typical marine base has 2-4 infantry portals in it, usually at the back. This means that when 8 players wipe out, they respawn in 2-4 cycles, and can get back to their last stand defense. Thus, even though the marines are dropping left and right, they're not out too long until the base is finally cracked and the Infantry portals go down, at which point the game is pretty much over.

    From the Alien perspective, you spawn in at your hives; so every hive is a spawn point. This leaves the aliens with 1-3 spawn points, depending on how many hives they have left... Since losing implies the final siege, this means that the aliens only have 1 spawn point. So when 8 alien players wipe out, they need to wait 8 cycles to spawn back in. This is quite awhile taken out from the action.

    Now, in the final siege, Everyone is really outclassed. Whether it's five onos's charging in or five HA/HMG marines, freshly spawned in players don't stand a chance. The difference is, that when those five HA/HMG marines wipe out 8 skulks, the skulks are then waiting an insane ammount of time to get out of spectator mode and back into the action.

    Thus, the reason I hate losing as an alien but don't mind losing as a marine is that, as a Marine, I can be fighting until the bitter end, when the aliens bust down the turrets and come for our infantry portals. But if I'm an Alien... hello spectator mode.

    Also, it could be worth noting that Marines generally don't hide as well as Aliens, thus it is less common for the entire marine team to be following this one marine hiding in some obscure, dark corner in the middle of nowhere, as it is for the entire alien team to be waiting for the marines to hunt down that one blasted skulk who think's it's clever to hide in an out-of-the-way Vent.

    Just my opinions, but I think it's waiting to respawn that makes the Alien defeat much more boring than the marine defeat. Of course, the problem is greatly exacerbated in larger games, which we're seeing more and more of.

  • bonoryebonorye Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7998Members
    I REALLY enjoy being the marines/losing at times. I think the programmers of this mod did an incredible job of capturing the essence of other 'alien' movies with the stress for the commander to get things done and the marines doing their best to survive in a claustrophobic dark environment while you have nasty creatures coming at you from all directions....2 BIG thumbs up to Flayra and the rest of the NS crew!! thanks guys for allowing me to be scared **obscenity**- less!!
  • QuietMischief1QuietMischief1 Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7456Members
    Best Map to lose as Marines on, Bast, with out any shadow of doubt

    With that gigantic elevator shaft, the revolving door, the vent, dear god, it's fun losing on that map towards the end, and no, not by turret farming, that's too expensive, you need the money for Distress Beacon, WOOHOOO GO GO GADGET RESPAWN

    Cause seriously, respawn the marines instead of motionless turrets, they do more damage then those sissy turrets and can instead save all teh cash for welders and the like
  • BattousaixBattousaix Join Date: 2002-06-25 Member: 822Members
    I remember once at eclipse, we had a long game, a struggle defending the third hive, the aliens just kept pushing forward until they got it, and after the onos appeared we where totally cornered, when i asked the comm for a shotty, and a jetpack.... One of my clanmates told me: umm batt... what are you up to?.
    I sayed: im takin that freakin hive, theres a vent leading to comp core nearby, with a jetpack i can avoid the aliens and get into the vent, most of em will just go along and keep attacking....
    he sayed: umm so you gonna strike a hive byurself trought the vent? ur getting on comp core?? alone with a shottie?
    I: Yeah....
    Him: comm, gimme jetpack and hmg
    After we had enough resources, we wait for an alien attack after like 3 onos died, we head trough the right door, then turn to left, then an onos appears behind us and we fly at max speed trough the ramp with the node, once we are at the other side we see the vent and we get in it, after a while moving trought vents we get on comp core, i peak, and i see 6 offensive chambers on each entrance... but the hive itself was clean....
    We both get on top of the hive and we kill it, after killing it we clean 2 entrances and when we where going to kill the last off chambers a cc drops in the middle of the hive and the comm can barely say: build that **obscenity** and get ips! *cc explodes* *comm gets pwned by the aliens*
    we build the cc we get 2 ips and a turret fac, we make like 5 turrets and the resource tower, then we keep making stuff until we have again full power, after a while some fades start attacking the base, so we kill em, then we push over eclipse command but we couldnt kill all the damned chambers, when a marine with a jetpack and a gl just rushes in and starts a spam at the hive, and he kills it....
    we where nuts, we had just made a cool comeback, when the comm says omg base! when we get back in there just 2 turrets are still alive and the tf heavily damaged, after a hard fight we kill all the fades and we get back on eclipse command to kill all the chambers and stablish a base, we built and we had nice fights, the alien attacks where desperate, but we just kept pushing forward.... after like 1 hour we finally kill the hive, and we kill all the buggers..... We had just won a 5 hour match.... we had came back when there was no hope....
  • Alien_BobAlien_Bob Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8185Members
    Losing as a marine is great - it's invariably an epic battle to the very last bullet, and hugely enjoyable even though you know you're doomed. But as long as you have fun that's all that matters.

    Losing as an alien is a sad, dreary experience, usually reduced to the tricked-out marines hunting down the last surviving skulks and lerks one by one.

    Aliens don't get to go out with a bang like the marines do. <!--emo&:)--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • SmellslikefecesSmellslikefeces Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8194Members
    I agree the major issue is that the marines never lose their 'upgrades' no matter what happens. The aliens can take out their arms lab and their prototype lab and they still have the upgrades. However as an alien once you lose the second or third hive you lose everything. You can no longer be a fade/onos and there is basically nothing you can do to stop the ha/hmg assault. I think the aliens should be able to keep their ability to evolve into a fade/onos even if the aliens lose a hive or two. Thus the aliens don't get totally screwed and maybe people wouldn't jump ship so quickly. It would also help to make the siege turrets less powerful or more expensive.
  • ShockehShockeh If a packet drops on the web and nobody&#39;s near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    I'd reckon the reverse.

    Losing their upgrades, if the buildings in question were destroyed... would...

    1) Encourage the Marines to actually BOTHER to defend these after upgrading
    2) Give the aliens a reason to bother to destroy them ("No Jetpacks for J00, MARINES!")
  • ShingyBoyShingyBoy Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9086Members
    edited November 2002
    I really hate this we were getting caned by marines but we managed to get second hive i was playing with a bunch of n00bs who didn't even know how to evovle we still won but wen we got 3 hives they destroyed it and we got it back again now the marine team knew how 2 play it took them agez to kill me as a fade and i did a big deal of damage after that 4 of their players say **obscenity** game and leave just coz we started to kick their **obscenity** how bloody crap is that then wen we all become onos we destroy them i didn't take our their turret factory but i managed to kill most of them
    i just hate it wen people just cant take losing
    EDIT:Has Bin Moved To Where The Post Will have Purpose Read If U Want
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