Balance Test Input/Suggestions on the changelog
ezekel
Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
Alright, so I'm going to pretty much copy the entire changelog here and everything I agree with, don't agree with, and suggestions etc etc and want everyone to discuss the points and all that stuff.
I think this is a major change to game progression, and am not entirely sure if I think having structures build that much slower is a good thing. Every single alien is pretty important on the field, and taking one off early game for building may be a pretty big issue. I don't mind the trade-off between making a drifter help build a structure quicker compared to having it scout the map for enemies/supporting team mates with abilities. Reduced gorge cost seems fine in making it more easy to quickly swap to, use for what you need to, then swap back to skulk or another life form without setting yourself too far behind.
Getting minor res for no RTs seems fine,
increased team starting res helps change up early game strats
increased resource tower is the obvious, doesn't seem to be an issue after dozens of hours in BT
No res while dead removed seems great, keep it
Reducing pres but you still receive it when dead makes sense, agree with pretty much everything here
I'm going to assume gradual melee attacks is glancing bites - 100% agree with this change, it removes a lot of accidental biting from skulks just spamming bite and running near you and landing low-mid damage bites, now from experience it seems that only bites directly on the marine count, and do full impact
Makes sense, you could go to RR then rejoin immediately, now movement code let me get into that
I personally believe skulk should require wall jumping for speed gaining but strafing should be a big requirement in it, it's just another skilled based movement mechanic and something I believe this game needs badly; making it too simple or making it simple and having it nerfed (how it feels right now as of 5/21/2013 due to air friction) just doesn't feel good, and having it too simple doesn't feel good either. Being rewarding for proper wall jumps and A/D strafe with mouse movement feels like the way to go. For those who can't do it, honestly sorry I don't think an entire function should be eased down just because you have trouble learning it.
Making it give you high speeds for properly executing it seems perfect, I'd also like the -jump spam- aspect of it to be removed, I'm not asking for perfect timed jumps though those are awful and promote scrollwheel use/macro use, just keep it jump when you feel like you've landed if that's possible but not to the point where you can just keep mashing spacebar if that's NOT possible, then leave the spacebar mashing. I think perfect timed jumps is too much and literally promotes cheating, as of now people can macro and it won't make a difference compared to someone just using their jump key.
Marines feel fine, onos feels too slow even with celerity; I seriously think onos needs a speed rework with celerity because as of now you can go adren or celerity and noticed nearly no difference what so ever.
Lerk while trying to attempt to make it more of a support player, I don't think speed nerfs were the way to go. If anything add a more global swoosh sound when a lerk is gliding, however make it quiet to the client itself so that they can know they're making the noise but not loud enough to disturb them from other important sounds. This should solve the so few flaps issue, making the lerk slow ultimately forces him to keep distance and not be aggressive, however this can be debated; I just don't like that getting close to a marine can mean death from a level 0 lmg
Fade can be debated, both the vanilla fade and BT fade are good. Vanilla fade requires more skill to master in my opinion, while BT fade raises the skill floor and ceiling at the same time, so a newbie can have an easier time with the fade; while an experienced player can have a lot to do with the fade itself. Removing double jump feels weird, but it seems to play fine without it
I'm not sure about the resource tower, makes sense I guess but if the com wants to attempt to block a structure and blow x amount of res from the other com then they should be able to.. besides if say aliens were there and the com dropped a RT they'd blow 10x res, but I guess they could keep doing it to deny an alien structure but still they'd be losing x amount of res doing so.. debatable
Crag/shade/shift moving is great
Supply limit is fine, more supplies per tech point gives another reason for more tech points
Macs not welding each other obviously makes sense, keep
macs/drifters not being able to attack makes sense, however macs can currently follow aliens and I think that should be removed
not weld the same target, meh; makes sense but a limit, like 2-3 per exo or what not
I'd rather have crags stack, they heal too slow and force retreat to hive or a gorge requirement
Shift not stacking makes sense, they recharge fast enough
Experimental:
-?? alien structures auto build rate is reduced by 70%, drifters speed up build time to normal rate
-?? reduced gorge cost to 5 (down from 10)
I think this is a major change to game progression, and am not entirely sure if I think having structures build that much slower is a good thing. Every single alien is pretty important on the field, and taking one off early game for building may be a pretty big issue. I don't mind the trade-off between making a drifter help build a structure quicker compared to having it scout the map for enemies/supporting team mates with abilities. Reduced gorge cost seems fine in making it more easy to quickly swap to, use for what you need to, then swap back to skulk or another life form without setting yourself too far behind.
Resource System:
- team resources when no RT active (counts as 0.5 active RTs)
- increased starting team resources to 70
- increased resource tower costs to 12
- removed "no res while dead" rule
- reduced personal resource income per RT from 0.125 to 0.1
Getting minor res for no RTs seems fine,
increased team starting res helps change up early game strats
increased resource tower is the obvious, doesn't seem to be an issue after dozens of hours in BT
No res while dead removed seems great, keep it
Reducing pres but you still receive it when dead makes sense, agree with pretty much everything here
General:
-? disabled gradual melee attacks
- added additional 6 second respawn time when rejoining a team, suiciding or when killed by a death trigger
- movement code rewritten
I'm going to assume gradual melee attacks is glancing bites - 100% agree with this change, it removes a lot of accidental biting from skulks just spamming bite and running near you and landing low-mid damage bites, now from experience it seems that only bites directly on the marine count, and do full impact
Makes sense, you could go to RR then rejoin immediately, now movement code let me get into that
I personally believe skulk should require wall jumping for speed gaining but strafing should be a big requirement in it, it's just another skilled based movement mechanic and something I believe this game needs badly; making it too simple or making it simple and having it nerfed (how it feels right now as of 5/21/2013 due to air friction) just doesn't feel good, and having it too simple doesn't feel good either. Being rewarding for proper wall jumps and A/D strafe with mouse movement feels like the way to go. For those who can't do it, honestly sorry I don't think an entire function should be eased down just because you have trouble learning it.
Making it give you high speeds for properly executing it seems perfect, I'd also like the -jump spam- aspect of it to be removed, I'm not asking for perfect timed jumps though those are awful and promote scrollwheel use/macro use, just keep it jump when you feel like you've landed if that's possible but not to the point where you can just keep mashing spacebar if that's NOT possible, then leave the spacebar mashing. I think perfect timed jumps is too much and literally promotes cheating, as of now people can macro and it won't make a difference compared to someone just using their jump key.
Marines feel fine, onos feels too slow even with celerity; I seriously think onos needs a speed rework with celerity because as of now you can go adren or celerity and noticed nearly no difference what so ever.
Lerk while trying to attempt to make it more of a support player, I don't think speed nerfs were the way to go. If anything add a more global swoosh sound when a lerk is gliding, however make it quiet to the client itself so that they can know they're making the noise but not loud enough to disturb them from other important sounds. This should solve the so few flaps issue, making the lerk slow ultimately forces him to keep distance and not be aggressive, however this can be debated; I just don't like that getting close to a marine can mean death from a level 0 lmg
Fade can be debated, both the vanilla fade and BT fade are good. Vanilla fade requires more skill to master in my opinion, while BT fade raises the skill floor and ceiling at the same time, so a newbie can have an easier time with the fade; while an experienced player can have a lot to do with the fade itself. Removing double jump feels weird, but it seems to play fine without it
Anti Spam:
- resource towers and command structures will now block re-creation for 5 seconds after destruction (enemy team is allowed to drop something)
-? crag, shade, shift are now moveable
- added supply limit for specific units, 100 supply per captured tech point
-? MACs can no longer weld each other
- MACs and Drifters are no longer able to attack
- multiple MACs are no longer able to weld the same target
- crags no longer stack their healing with each other and can heal a maximum of 3 targets at once
- shift energize no longer stacks
I'm not sure about the resource tower, makes sense I guess but if the com wants to attempt to block a structure and blow x amount of res from the other com then they should be able to.. besides if say aliens were there and the com dropped a RT they'd blow 10x res, but I guess they could keep doing it to deny an alien structure but still they'd be losing x amount of res doing so.. debatable
Crag/shade/shift moving is great
Supply limit is fine, more supplies per tech point gives another reason for more tech points
Macs not welding each other obviously makes sense, keep
macs/drifters not being able to attack makes sense, however macs can currently follow aliens and I think that should be removed
not weld the same target, meh; makes sense but a limit, like 2-3 per exo or what not
I'd rather have crags stack, they heal too slow and force retreat to hive or a gorge requirement
Shift not stacking makes sense, they recharge fast enough
Comments
Slowing down marine important arm/wep upgrades seems fine, makes them come out essentially still early or near the first lerk possibly
nano shield research makes sense, also I believe now it was returned to former glory of longer time; which makes sense for the tres trade off
Fine, now arms lab can be first
Welders no longer require research for the obvious, since they're essential to the team and promote teamwork
exosuits - makes sense, requires robo factor
flame/GL auto unlocked with advanced is good, however if they get adjustments to be more viable (no offense GL I feel isn't too viable) then I think auto research would need to be removed
jp/exo on 1 com makes sense, can cause comebacks and the obvious etc
everything here makes sense, however I want melee to do heavier structure damage since it requires you to be in the immediate range of the structure and thus more vulnerable to alien attacks
love it all
Needs adjustments, personally I think GL is just something to spam a corner and not very viable and a waste of pres. I was thinking a possible charge up to launch a grenade at a high max speed instead of an arc (straight line) and give it an increased damage per charge, so a skilled shot can essentially be like a quick rocket into an alien or structure; charge time would obviously be a little while to prevent it becoming something like a rocket launcher. Just an idea
Makes sense, no argument here
All good changes, however arcs are quite slow -maybe a research to make them the same speed as vanilla? Sort of like the previous MAC speed upgrade of 50%, and I love ink clouds now being viable to delay arcs
I don't like the damage via infestation, it's a disturbance to the marine commander saying a structure is under attack
Making phase gates weaker seems fine
Infinite sprint obviously makes sense, very obnoxious to run out of sprint
Allow them to build on infestation but slower than 25% and remove the armor damage
power surge - perfect, great ability for commander to possibly turn a game around or save a base
armores no longer healing armor - one of the better additions of BT, forces welder teamwork or com mac to players. Also helps late game when marines have high armors and take chip damage to make them taken down via skulks etc.
reduced welder for its importance to teamwork, good
Raised medpack cost to make spamming an option, but detrimental to team resources
I like seeing that things are damaged, but try and remove the circle icon which is just annoying to player vision; same for seeing a marine with a blue circle rounding him or the option to turn it off, just want to see the wrench
auto weld order seems ok, but again the annoying blue icon needs to go
jp cost increase makes sense because jetpack is more viable now with new thrust/movement
I don't like mac EMP being removed, drifters have a lot of abilities giving mac an ability seems useful, however the EMP never did enough adren damage to be viable. High adren damage for a high cooldown and only one mac so a global cooldown
obscuring removal - good
Parasited them makes sense, but infinite parasite on them is just annoying; your team will know when an RT is there should be a teamwork aspect to notify your team of an RT or if it's down
spawn time increase is fine
I believe the 50 res is a typo, I think it's 5 res atm, all of this is fine however I've noticed aliens now spawn much faster, not sure how I feel about that - debatable
love every change here
love everything here, however debate still needs to be there about cara/regen and celerity/adren, sometimes it feels like there's always only one option - not sure if this wants to be changed
all good, still needs more testing to see if this fade or the old one is more desirable. I do enjoy this fade and still need to test it more as energy costs are being tested
All good, but I'd like spores to be shootable like umbra, if you want the lerk to be a support player; if not then the lerk speed needs to remain vanilla since he has to enter the area to use his spores and etc. having him slow just makes him target practice and is already extremely easy to kill when shotguns are out
Onos can't crouch while jumping, I want this back
Onos feels too slow with celerity, needs speed buff imo - or else adren is only choice
all fine
xenocide seems a bit more useful now that armor doesn't regen, however making this ability cost pres for higher damage would be a better trade-off, if you're going to just run into marines and essentially nuke them, make it cost pres so it's a detriment on your side (besides dying) I don't really know just a suggestion, I don't see xenocide being useful at any point
all interesting, but I feel cysts build up too slowly; if structures are going to remain at a slower build rate I think cyst should build quicker
All good changes, however mucous membrane and storm cloud can block marine vision, I think that should be removed; the benefits from them are fine.
As for hallucinations, as soon as they are used it would be useful if they were all automatically selected by the marine commander, because once made they all stand still; so having them immediately become all highlighted then having the alien com be able to move them along with the current team in the area would be pretty viable.
I love the new drifters
Allowing main structures to be built without hive requirement is very useful
fade/onos requiring higher biomass for tRes drop is good
change upgrades is debatable for me, even if it cost pRes I think it should be an ultimate decision of the player if they should get this upgrade now or wait for the possible upgrade later, sure it punishes you for living long but it's a choice; however debatable if you can only change near hive and have it cost pRes then it can be good as well
shift moving structures quicker makes sense
cloaked units always being slightly visible is awesome, love it on phantom (I suggested this!
will need to test regen more, maybe now it's more viable early game.. however carapace later on must be used simply due to marine tech advancements and shotguns
rupture is useful, destroy a cysts to blind a marine
shift echo - all good here
parsite only makes sense
makes sense, no longer 2 second onos spawn from Tres
shift echo is another option for alien kham, useful and no longer requiring maturity is good.
Suggestions: not entirely related to balance
1) Make macs on follow work like babblers, visible on the person but not blocking the players vision (also marines cannot shoot through macs, so a mac set to follow a marine can essentially blind them AND make them miss shots)
2) Make onos faster via celerity -- also boost overall ground speed, so that celerity won't be the only option over adrenaline, gore range decrease is fine but slow movement speed is so "meh"
3) Return A/D strafe + mouse movement to former glory, and lower air friction back to previous value, limited movement in air doesn't feel good
4) I'd like to see alien structures back to building quicker, this is something major that changes the progression of the game especially early on
5) Make leap cost more to research, but make leap use less adrenaline (NS1 adren usage style)
6) Add a charge to grenade launcher as an experiemental, hold to charge(4-x seconds?) - fast non arced shot with high damage output
7) Make exosuit melee/punch deal high damage to alien structures
8) Re-add mac EMP, give global cooldown and only allow one mac per time, but make it do HEAVY adrenaline damage - also remove mac follow, and possibly add a charge before the emp is released so you hit emp, then move mac towards alien and it goes off in say 3-5 seconds, this will prevent spam imo and make it pretty useful like drifter abilities
9) Catalyst packs for marines (xDragon!) - faster marine fire rate (NS1)
10) Make rookie status on players extended to 15 hours - 4 hours is not enough time to fully understand the game in my opinion
11) Remove rookie filter servers, if a server wants to be rookie friendly leave it in the server title --this separates playerbase, and rookie servers barely have rookies in them
12) Experimental - add competitive filter, server only joinable by 100~ hours of playtime? (may be a poor suggestion, but can give more experienced players a place to go; just a placeholder until possible ?? implementation of a pug or matching system??)
13) keep glancing bites removed -this is just such an improvement I can't even explain, aliens should have to aim at the marine to get their bites; not miss and still output damage.. if a marine misses he misses, same should apply to an alien.
14) Make alien structures return to previous build speed, but just allow drifters to help build them up quicker if they choose to; or keep them slower but reduce the slowness slightly (it feels very slow imo)
15) Add research for ARCs to increase movement speed by 50% (this will make them same speed as vanilla)
16) Show range of observatory before placement, scan before placement, shade before placement
This was a tl;dr post but I did spot this gem.
Yep, this post is geared towards developers mainly, and those vigorously playing BT/know most of the changes, however everyone is free to comment
Now that umbra is the lerk's strong point and has some slight feedback to it (orange shader on friendlies) you will notice how often it does not engage.
It needs to be faster/hitscan to keep up with the leaping/flying/blinking/charging/sliding "mobile" team..
OR .. it needs to remain active on the target longer after touching said cloud so that the lerk can shoot it ahead of his teamates at the very least.
It also needs to be less opaque for both sides.. no one enjoys the wall of orange.
it also needs to be able to be switched to, using the mwheel (bug)
it also needs to be able to be switched between bite and spikes far faster (the lerk in general swaps weapons at a painful rate)
Also, while i get that only the skulk should be highlighting with parasite - the lerk spikes previously highlighting a marine was FAARRR more useful to that individual lerk picking out some small pixels in the far distance... forget about scouting for a second...without this feature its essentially forcing me to use alien vision (which i do not like to use for various reasons) just to utilize the weapon of that lifeform??
It doesn't have to highlight it for the entire team.. thats not needed. Just for the lerk ... it already has a steep skill requirement for new players - picking out a few dark pixels in the far corner of central drilling is annoying and i find this to be a nerf mostly to poor aiming/tracking players, but also to those that don't use alien vision 100% of the time.
Thats what i can think of right now without getting into lerk overhauls in design (spores, poison bite, pancaking etc)
But if the lerk is going to be support then I think spores should have the ability to be shot forward in a cloud, having to actually run into the fight to drop these things is dangerous. Any group of shotgunners even if you go as a group, you're probably going to be a primary target and dying in a 6v6 immediately as a lerk is not good.. I mean I haven't played the lerk in a few bt updates because of how slow he became (may have changed) I just think his vanilla speeds are fine
But on that matter, if everything I posted were adjusted I think this mod would be pretty near perfect, and maybe some of those suggestions got in (but that's just assuming)
edit: Also I don't think there's a single time when you'd want to have alien vision off, have you tried using custom alien visions? I can't use the default one for too long because it's an eye-sore for me. I use the original gliss vision or whatever, the greyscale is just perfect
I can live with Drifters no longer being able to follow marines (and thus block their shots automatically), but then make it at least so that they still move to the spot if you click on a marine and don't just keep sitting at their old location without doing anything.
ARC speed nerf is fine. It encourages the placement of forward ARC Factories instead of making the entire army in your base and sending it out. Perhaps give them slightly more armor to make up for the slower movement speed, so they have more chances to escape. They would still be as vulnerable as usual while deployed.
The problem with MAC EMP is that it's too powerful to screw you over. MACs tend to follow Exos by nature. Having EMP on the MAC, especially if it is supposed to drain even more energy than before, allows to screw any Onos completely over that charges at the Exo - it won't have any energy left to attack the Exo and it won't have any energy left to escape.
Besides that I never really saw how an "EMP" would do something to an organic lifeform like aliens but neither to marines nor their equipment.
Well the thing about the mac emp like I said would require a 3-x second charge, only be usable by 1 mac, and have a heavy cool down and have tres cost.. but do heavy adren damage, so it's strategic and stuffs (plus it needs to be researched)
forward arc factories happen regardless, if you had a tres option to make their 50% faster speed what the speed is in vanilla I don't see an issue (plus it's a heavy tres cost, so I don't think you'd see it in a competitive match unless one team is seriously dominating)
drifters/macs shouldn't follow enemies what so ever since they can no longer attack