DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@Agiel
yes and I am strafing most of the time. I just read ezekel's OP as 'you can now also just go forward and jump/mouse' but i guess thats wrong.
Still doesnt solve any real problem
Personally, I think that wall jumping is pretty good and could be expanded upon (only talking skulk atm since the other aliens kinda have their own thing). Maybe giving some bonus so that if you use leap off a wall you get a larger speed boost. Or having multiple jumps off the same surface give an increasing speed boost (to a cap ofc) to encourage staying on the same surface for speed, but also forcing a decision when facing marines since you're easier to hit if you just run in a straight line on a single surface (just spit balling atm and don't have much time to think right now).
In the balance mod, you can hold forward while doing all the movements, it does feel a little different compared to not holding it, but doesnt really negatively impact your speed gain. When bhopping in other games like source/gldsrc, you couldnt be holding forward.
This game is just going to die a slow death like NS1.
UWE has no idea how to cater towards new players and keep retention of these players. What many FPS game developers have learned is that you need a xp/leveling/achievement system to keep players playing.
All UWE really knows how to do is cater to the comp scene.
No amount of balance changes or even performance improvements is going to change this. It is the psychology of gamers.
XP/Leveling/achievements turns off many players also, as many do not want to commit the time investment to level up/unlock the needed perks to be competitive with other players. What keeps people playing is good gameplay and a solid community, both which NS1 had an abundance off (was popular for 10 years, very few other niche games can claim that). As for new players, an RTS/FPS hybrid is essentially a niche game, and as such that already makes getting new players interested difficult. As for keeping the game approachable, that is something that NS has always suffered with, but the correct approach to fixing that is not to dumb down the game mechanics, it's to create solid mechanics that are intuitive and progressive if at all possible. Having a mechanic like the bhop in the BT mod currently will have a very limited impact on new players, simply because its benefits are very small, and its a very high level mechanic. More importantly to new players is their experience when playing the higher tier classes first - buying the first shotgun/exo, fade/lerk, and teaching them the basics of what and where to be during the game. NS2 completely overwhelms players on first launch, and if they manage to make it past those first games, then the few un-intuitive mechanics like walljump/bhop found later generally are not the problem.
Stick to posting honest discussion about mechanics instead of BS reasons why they are bad. So far no one has posted as single reasonable alternative, nor have they even posting a reasonable argument against the movement.
This game is just going to die a slow death like NS1.
UWE has no idea how to cater towards new players and keep retention of these players. What many FPS game developers have learned is that you need a xp/leveling/achievement system to keep players playing.
All UWE really knows how to do is cater to the comp scene.
No amount of balance changes or even performance improvements is going to change this. It is the psychology of gamers.
'Cuz like, Counter-Strike totally had an achievement system.
Oh wait, maybe people played THE GAME because it was FUN instead of getting a false sense of achieving something because there's no way you'd otherwise waste your time playing a piece of cr*p like that? "Well, atleast I ACHIEVED something... No wait I'm dumb as hell."
This game is just going to die a slow death like NS1.
UWE has no idea how to cater towards new players and keep retention of these players. What many FPS game developers have learned is that you need a xp/leveling/achievement system to keep players playing.
All UWE really knows how to do is cater to the comp scene.
No amount of balance changes or even performance improvements is going to change this. It is the psychology of gamers.
I think you overestimate how the WoWification of NS2 would improve player retention.
On the subject of player retention, rookies being overwhelmed, etc., the only good solution I can think of is to have both of these:
1) A complete and interactive tutorial system in which players learn every single aspect of the game, from basic to advanced, including all movement tricks, upgrades, tech, objectives, all of that. Give players a sense of progress, and make them feel that they're learning something. Example videos might help, but it's better to have the player actually do the stuff to learn it.
2) Offline practice mode with bots that can be as dumb as a rock or as competent as a reasonably high level player (pubstomper-good, perhaps, but neither Archaea-good nor aimbot-good) or anything in between. Let them choose the side and role. Give them directions the first few times they play as a field player or commander so they get a hold of what's going on in the game.
Since NS2 is not as simple as Counter-Strike, they really need to give players a way to learn the game without getting overwhelmed and destroyed every time.
Why does turning left an right make you go faster from a logic standpoint? It just looks sooooo dumb to have your view swinging back and forth just to go faster imho.
To make it a skilled mechanic, something you'd have to be good at. Same with aiming, if you can aim good you'll be good, if you aim bad, well you'll do bad
(plus it was similar to the first game, so a lot of players understand it and it makes sense to them) if you're going by logic.. well then majority of video games don't make any sense
This game is just going to die a slow death like NS1.
UWE has no idea how to cater towards new players and keep retention of these players. What many FPS game developers have learned is that you need a xp/leveling/achievement system to keep players playing.
All UWE really knows how to do is cater to the comp scene.
No amount of balance changes or even performance improvements is going to change this. It is the psychology of gamers.
Counter-strike source lost 40,000 players in 2 weeks after the june 2010 update, source: archive of steam stats before the update and two weeks after, and what did they add? an achievement system. Plus they moved the game to another engine (which made it worse in so many aspects I don't even want to go into detail) then removed server side fps variables, and made the game hard capped at 66 tic, when it was previously 100 (what in the actual fuck?) Then they changed the recoil of weapons, and nerfed the sniper rifle everyone was already accustomed to (also introducing new bugs which were never fixed) and then followed by abandoning the game entirely
Mainly because I'm not going to go read through 1.7k of posts in the balance mod thread, what was the reasoning for the change in the skulk movement? Was it really that bad that we had to change it up?
Mainly because I'm not going to go read through 1.7k of posts in the balance mod thread, what was the reasoning for the change in the skulk movement? Was it really that bad that we had to change it up?
Don't get me wrong, moving around in the map like in your videos looks brilliantly fun, but it would require a re balance would it not?
Aliens have much better logistics because of this.
Either maps need to be bigger or they need to die easier, something like that.
And what is the net effect of these nerfs (or buffs to marines) change? It punishes players who don't use this mechanic. Assuming you balance it for competitive.
I like the idea behind the system. It reminds me of how some games that rely on bhop mechanic to make the gameplay richer let you hold down space bar and you will nail the jump every time. Makes it a lot more intuitive, less need for uintuative mechanical coordination, but retains how interesting strafe jumping is and what it adds to the game play.
On this note I ask why the left and right movement keys are even required. Do they add anything to the game? It seems the mouse movement does at high speeds, the skill and game play ramifications of where you are aiming is huge while moving at high speeds wall jumping does. The movement keys matching which way you are strafing just seems like a useless addon that is a byproduct of what was required to exploit the physics bugs that enabled these movement techniques.
Throw on the control key and then you've got the player holding down how many movement keys when the only important ones are forward, the space bar, and where the mouse is aiming.
Mainly because I'm not going to go read through 1.7k of posts in the balance mod thread, what was the reasoning for the change in the skulk movement? Was it really that bad that we had to change it up?
Yes
Pretend I'm pretty dumb, which won't take much imagination. Whats wrong with the current skulk movement that makes it so bad?
Don't get me wrong, moving around in the map like in your videos looks brilliantly fun, but it would require a re balance would it not?
Aliens have much better logistics because of this.
Either maps need to be bigger or they need to die easier, something like that.
And what is the net effect of these nerfs (or buffs to marines) change? It punishes players who don't use this mechanic. Assuming you balance it for competitive.
I like the idea behind the system. It reminds me of how some games that rely on bhop mechanic to make the gameplay richer let you hold down space bar and you will nail the jump every time. Makes it a lot more intuitive, less need for uintuative mechanical coordination, but retains how interesting strafe jumping is and what it adds to the game play.
On this note I ask why the left and right movement keys are even required. Do they add anything to the game? It seems the mouse movement does at high speeds, the skill and game play ramifications of where you are aiming is huge while moving at high speeds wall jumping does. The movement keys matching which way you are strafing just seems like a useless addon that is a byproduct of what was required to exploit the physics bugs that enabled these movement techniques.
Throw on the control key and then you've got the player holding down how many movement keys when the only important ones are forward, the space bar, and where the mouse is aiming.
marine hitreg was improved, thus skulks get more wiggle room
Mainly because I'm not going to go read through 1.7k of posts in the balance mod thread, what was the reasoning for the change in the skulk movement? Was it really that bad that we had to change it up?
Yes
Pretend I'm pretty dumb, which won't take much imagination. Whats wrong with the current skulk movement that makes it so bad?
Without knowing how long you've been playing the game build 240 completely dropped skulks flat on their arse in terms of chaining wall jumps for a moderate-significant speed gain as well nerfing their ability to turn in combat and keep built up speed, this wasn't done for balancing reasons so much as it was done because the models in NS2 were totally spazzing out in mid air/jumping off 2-3 things and made it very hard for marines to predict, track and register shots against skulks.
So the current movement paths for skulks in the last 7 builds have been total wank, the skulk went from semi successful mobile attacker/ambusher to straight out ambusher if you wanted to be effective.
I believe the bunnyhopping mechanic is trying to introduce a way for skulks to move around the map fast (like old wall jump) as well as possibly engage a room of marines with some speed/momentum (like old wall jump) without actually relying on jumping on walls/objects and causing the model to completely spin around itself mid combat, hence it's a chain floor jumping mechanic with speed boosts from singular, sporadic wall jumps.
Ahh, forgot about that part. I can't wait to actually go and try the new movement but it looks like it won't be functional because of the latest update.
What about the movement keys though. Do you think they actually add something to the game play or are there because they are designed to reflect bhop mechanics?
In BW to SC2, there was a similar argument. Automining meant players didn't have to fight the interface and order workers to mine every time you built one. This had actual game play ramifications because even pros couldn't effectively build their eco while harassing, you were limited by your skill in what you could do in a certain time. I'm not quite convinced this analogy could apply in this case however, but it could bring some insight.
Why does turning left an right make you go faster from a logic standpoint? It just looks sooooo dumb to have your view swinging back and forth just to go faster imho.
If you try in real life you get something to this effect:
This game is just going to die a slow death like NS1.
UWE has no idea how to cater towards new players and keep retention of these players. What many FPS game developers have learned is that you need a xp/leveling/achievement system to keep players playing.
All UWE really knows how to do is cater to the comp scene.
No amount of balance changes or even performance improvements is going to change this. It is the psychology of gamers.
If NS2 survives as long as NS1 did, that would be a big succes in my book.
@mechanicalDR There is currently jump queuing, meaning you can press and hold the jump key to jump as soon as you land. You still need to press once per jump, and I don't think we need to take it any further than that.
As for the strafe keys, the first version of the balance mod (and the internal movement test versions before that) didn't have bunny hopping and it still felt a million times better than vanilla due to the way momentum is preserved and manipulated with the new (and much cleaner) code. The problem was, back then you got speed from fall acceleration even on level ground, which the bunny hopping crowd obviously hated it because it was too easy.
There really seems to be no way to please everyone.
Comments
yes and I am strafing most of the time. I just read ezekel's OP as 'you can now also just go forward and jump/mouse' but i guess thats wrong.
Still doesnt solve any real problem
Personally, I think that wall jumping is pretty good and could be expanded upon (only talking skulk atm since the other aliens kinda have their own thing). Maybe giving some bonus so that if you use leap off a wall you get a larger speed boost. Or having multiple jumps off the same surface give an increasing speed boost (to a cap ofc) to encourage staying on the same surface for speed, but also forcing a decision when facing marines since you're easier to hit if you just run in a straight line on a single surface (just spit balling atm and don't have much time to think right now).
I understand the original reason, but that's not the case in NS2.
UWE has no idea how to cater towards new players and keep retention of these players. What many FPS game developers have learned is that you need a xp/leveling/achievement system to keep players playing.
All UWE really knows how to do is cater to the comp scene.
No amount of balance changes or even performance improvements is going to change this. It is the psychology of gamers.
Stick to posting honest discussion about mechanics instead of BS reasons why they are bad. So far no one has posted as single reasonable alternative, nor have they even posting a reasonable argument against the movement.
'Cuz like, Counter-Strike totally had an achievement system.
Oh wait, maybe people played THE GAME because it was FUN instead of getting a false sense of achieving something because there's no way you'd otherwise waste your time playing a piece of cr*p like that? "Well, atleast I ACHIEVED something... No wait I'm dumb as hell."
1) A complete and interactive tutorial system in which players learn every single aspect of the game, from basic to advanced, including all movement tricks, upgrades, tech, objectives, all of that. Give players a sense of progress, and make them feel that they're learning something. Example videos might help, but it's better to have the player actually do the stuff to learn it.
2) Offline practice mode with bots that can be as dumb as a rock or as competent as a reasonably high level player (pubstomper-good, perhaps, but neither Archaea-good nor aimbot-good) or anything in between. Let them choose the side and role. Give them directions the first few times they play as a field player or commander so they get a hold of what's going on in the game.
Since NS2 is not as simple as Counter-Strike, they really need to give players a way to learn the game without getting overwhelmed and destroyed every time.
To make it a skilled mechanic, something you'd have to be good at. Same with aiming, if you can aim good you'll be good, if you aim bad, well you'll do bad
(plus it was similar to the first game, so a lot of players understand it and it makes sense to them) if you're going by logic.. well then majority of video games don't make any sense
Counter-strike source lost 40,000 players in 2 weeks after the june 2010 update, source: archive of steam stats before the update and two weeks after, and what did they add? an achievement system. Plus they moved the game to another engine (which made it worse in so many aspects I don't even want to go into detail) then removed server side fps variables, and made the game hard capped at 66 tic, when it was previously 100 (what in the actual fuck?) Then they changed the recoil of weapons, and nerfed the sniper rifle everyone was already accustomed to (also introducing new bugs which were never fixed) and then followed by abandoning the game entirely
Yes
Don't get me wrong, moving around in the map like in your videos looks brilliantly fun, but it would require a re balance would it not?
Aliens have much better logistics because of this.
Either maps need to be bigger or they need to die easier, something like that.
And what is the net effect of these nerfs (or buffs to marines) change? It punishes players who don't use this mechanic. Assuming you balance it for competitive.
I like the idea behind the system. It reminds me of how some games that rely on bhop mechanic to make the gameplay richer let you hold down space bar and you will nail the jump every time. Makes it a lot more intuitive, less need for uintuative mechanical coordination, but retains how interesting strafe jumping is and what it adds to the game play.
On this note I ask why the left and right movement keys are even required. Do they add anything to the game? It seems the mouse movement does at high speeds, the skill and game play ramifications of where you are aiming is huge while moving at high speeds wall jumping does. The movement keys matching which way you are strafing just seems like a useless addon that is a byproduct of what was required to exploit the physics bugs that enabled these movement techniques.
Throw on the control key and then you've got the player holding down how many movement keys when the only important ones are forward, the space bar, and where the mouse is aiming.
Pretend I'm pretty dumb, which won't take much imagination. Whats wrong with the current skulk movement that makes it so bad?
marine hitreg was improved, thus skulks get more wiggle room
It's a piece of cement on the sidewalk
So the current movement paths for skulks in the last 7 builds have been total wank, the skulk went from semi successful mobile attacker/ambusher to straight out ambusher if you wanted to be effective.
I believe the bunnyhopping mechanic is trying to introduce a way for skulks to move around the map fast (like old wall jump) as well as possibly engage a room of marines with some speed/momentum (like old wall jump) without actually relying on jumping on walls/objects and causing the model to completely spin around itself mid combat, hence it's a chain floor jumping mechanic with speed boosts from singular, sporadic wall jumps.
Ahh, forgot about that part. I can't wait to actually go and try the new movement but it looks like it won't be functional because of the latest update.
What about the movement keys though. Do you think they actually add something to the game play or are there because they are designed to reflect bhop mechanics?
In BW to SC2, there was a similar argument. Automining meant players didn't have to fight the interface and order workers to mine every time you built one. This had actual game play ramifications because even pros couldn't effectively build their eco while harassing, you were limited by your skill in what you could do in a certain time. I'm not quite convinced this analogy could apply in this case however, but it could bring some insight.
If you try in real life you get something to this effect:
If NS2 survives as long as NS1 did, that would be a big succes in my book.
As for the strafe keys, the first version of the balance mod (and the internal movement test versions before that) didn't have bunny hopping and it still felt a million times better than vanilla due to the way momentum is preserved and manipulated with the new (and much cleaner) code. The problem was, back then you got speed from fall acceleration even on level ground, which the bunny hopping crowd obviously hated it because it was too easy.
There really seems to be no way to please everyone.