Balancing issues, map change suggestions, my big list of ideas.
Eesu
Join Date: 2012-08-08 Member: 155099Members
Join Date: 2012-08-08 Member: 155099Members
Hot on the heels of 244, I decided to finally put all my ideas down on "paper". (Especially since my usual servers still aren't updated yet). This isn't a flame post or anything, I love this game just like I loved NS1. I just want to voice my opinions (and put my 800+ hours of gameplay experience) to some use in the off-chance that someone agrees, or can help build on these ideas.
Start with map changes.
Refinery
Alien turbine hive disgustingly easy to arc from chasm.
Long hallway exit from turbine with cover (pipes on right wall) means gorges will never be able to hit arcs at the far north end, either due to LOS or pure distance factor. With changes to spawn locations in refinery this could be a problem very early in the game, aliens smelting, marines containment, turbine will essentially be unviable as a second hive for aliens. Add that the corridor in question is not flankable from turbine, or conduit, only routing (and also a long hall with little to no cover). Obvious solution is to add another vent (like was done in 244), shorten the hall (move the whole thing south, adding a right and left bend to also shorten the whole chasm hallway and probably the hallway from routing).
Mineshaft
New changes appear great. Cave still going to really suffer (still really far away from most of the map, especially all-important central drilling). Closest res towers quite far (no inherent extractors, especially if marines start repair). Cavern will immediately be contested by marines (all they need to do is snipe cysts), as will crusher. Solution would be to re-add the north point res tower, and / or move sorting further east (also separating it from deposit slightly). Or make crusher smaller, move the RT further north and move Cave south / west closer to the map in general.
Veil
(I imagine the creator wants to keep this map as true to the original as possible, but some changes are needed)
Vent at skylights, skulk gets in early, gorges, and skylights extractor is essentially unobtainable for marines. Solution is to modify the vent so that there is a vertical drop in it such that going from skylights to overlook means climbing up, and let marines back into the vent skylights side. Or, cover the vent exit like most of the other vent exits in Veil. Second problem is Overlook path to subsector hive. Its long straight, some cover, but very wide and leads to a fairly open room. Countless times I see Marines rush this location and easily hold it. Solution is a vent from the sub extractor to the hall outside overlook, or into overlook itself, and or more cover in overlook / subsector approach. Second issue is the crane structure in cargo, should marines hold cargo, it is a simple matter for a skulk to evolve gorge and then bile the entire marine base with nothing for marines to easily respond with. There needs to be a ladder to get up there for marines, or an opposing catwalk marines can get to to fire across from. I also feel pipeline as a starting hive is very problematic, but have no solution for that atm.
Docking
First and foremost remove locker as possible starting point for marines. Courtyard causes massive problems for alien harvesters, which are easily harassed (for Marine locker / terminal start). And should marines start cafeteria, locker and terminal essentially are given to them. No immediate solution comes to mind, but something that should be looked into is combining the terminal north exits into 1 exit (like a capital "T") except with the left tunnel going to courtyard being offset vertically from the right going to east wing. The problem arises when aliens start Departures and Marines start cafe. The distance is very far for aliens who then need to defend terminal ( a very open techpoint) from 2 opposing directions. Another option is to move the path between terminal and courtyard, to between courtyard and the tunnel leading to east wing (A north exit from the tunnel that turns left and meets courtyard on the right side, at the base of the catwalk stairs perhaps). Swap east wing power / extractor locations (cysts can be sniped from eastwing hallway should aliens try to keep it). Maintenance vent to stability, raise the maintenance exit up so marines cant just walk in, or put a vertical drop in to limit their penetration.
General balance / gameplay issues
I do not mean that these issues are horrible and make the game unplayable, there are obvious strategies that can be used to counter these scenarios from either side, the problem is the difference in difficulty / viability of the problem verses the solution.
Scenario:
Close start on summit, both teams even split rush the 2 nearest res nodes. Who wins? With marine speed the way it is, they get to the shared res node as fast (or faster depending on distance) as the aliens, because not every alien can wall-jump, while every marine can press shift. The go-to strategy for skulks being ambush, aliens are at a very large disadvantage.
Solution : Slow marines down some.
Alien spawncamping vs marine spawncamping.
Early game :
Marines require ammo drops, maybe health drops, unchallenged 2 marines can keep a new hive free of eggs easily.
Aliens get no help (maybe enzyme) camping 1 IP, 2 aliens will probably win (if comm doesn't get out), however the fact that 3 bites required to kill a spawning marine, each marine has a chance to do damage / get away and distract the skulks for the next spawning marine.
Mid game :
Marines have a few upgrades, shotguns, still easy to keep 1 hive egg free (and slow alien spawn rate enough to matter). Not an insurmountable problem for aliens now that they have 2nd hive (and higher LF, at least 1 lerk hopefully).
Even harder for aliens, marines have upgrades, phase gates and 2 IP's at this point, unless the marines aren't dying out in the field, camping an IP is naught but a distraction, maybe a way to cause a beacon, but not likely.
Late game:
Marines have full upgrades including jetpacks, 2 shotgun shells to kill an egg, 2 grenades to kill 5 eggs. And / or 1 shotgun shell or 1 grenade to kill a newly spawned skulk. With ammo / health / welders 2 marines can do alot of damage quickly.
Aliens, not so much, camping IP's late game is only viable for fades because of their speed, and only effective if the bulk of the marine team is out away from phase gates. Skulks / lerks are incapable because of the amount of damage it takes to kill a fully upgraded marine vs lmg damage output.
Solution : Alien eggspawn timer (if it isn't already) needs to be tied to the # of aliens on the team, with a minimum value. Or egg spawn rate can be tied to hive maturity level. Or shift egg spawning needs to be cheaper, 2 eggs for 3 or 4 res. And give alien commander an egg count icon somewhere on the HUD (like at the top center with the other counters).
This problem was partially addressed (intentionally or not) by the cost of IP increase to 20 res for marines in 244 (instead of speeding alien spawn, marine was slowed / made more costly).
Spawncamping related problem (upgrades)
Marines spawn with armor / weapons upgrades. Aliens do not. I have mentioned this once before on the forums. Dead aliens get to sit for 1-24 seconds after they die, depending on wave spawn timer and egg availability. Let aliens choose at least 1 upgrade if not all available / appropriate upgrades to spawn with while they are waiting. Or, make marines visit the arms lab (and hit "use" on it, to receive their armor / weapons upgrades after spawning.
Variety / General :
Marines have alot of variety, 3 different exos, jetpacks, 3 weapons (besides lmg). Aliens have 4 lifeforms (aside from skulks).
This is not a problem. Just a statement. Give onos devour, and fade acid rocket, gorge web, make them 4 hive abilities if you must. There needs to be some help in ending the dreaded marine turtle late game (especially if they have an exo or 2 in base still). Have acid rocket do only armor / structure damage like bile, or the reverse like lerk gas, or both and do only small amounts of damage. Devour will help keep the marines from endlessly recycling purchased weapons. I know the statement that you don't want to remove player control, but what is the possible 24 second spawn wait time for aliens if not lack of control, or vortex from fade. Let the marine being devoured axe the onos, or keep firing his weapon (maybe at reduced damage, or increased damage if its just axe, after all onos insides are squishy). I think it would be fun. 4th hive upgrades (maybe "Mutation" hive) add Focus and hypermutation back in. Bring back Marine HMG and nerf shotty a little bit. Shotgun seems to be trying to perform dual-duty at the moment. Reduce shotgun research costs to account for added costs of researching HMG. Lerk gas, while the damage is still a little high i think, more a problem because of its opacity and prevalence (how wide the dispersion is). Many corridors, one lerk gasing makes the corridor death, and impossible to see aliens. I just think it needs toned down a little. While on the subject, it really feels like lerks are REQUIRED for aliens to win, and 2 or 3 good lerks, can almost gaurantee an alien win.
Late game skulk viability :
In a word, useless. Jetpacks, exos, turrets. Skulks are fodder at best and target practice at worst. Give (at least skulks) a % damage / carapace increase based on the number of MATURE hives the aliens have, maybe even a speed boost as well, or instead, just to try. Giving this bonus to all alien lifeforms would also help with late game marine turtle, and to balance against the numerous methods of attack marines have vs the more limited aliens.
Start with map changes.
Refinery
Alien turbine hive disgustingly easy to arc from chasm.
Long hallway exit from turbine with cover (pipes on right wall) means gorges will never be able to hit arcs at the far north end, either due to LOS or pure distance factor. With changes to spawn locations in refinery this could be a problem very early in the game, aliens smelting, marines containment, turbine will essentially be unviable as a second hive for aliens. Add that the corridor in question is not flankable from turbine, or conduit, only routing (and also a long hall with little to no cover). Obvious solution is to add another vent (like was done in 244), shorten the hall (move the whole thing south, adding a right and left bend to also shorten the whole chasm hallway and probably the hallway from routing).
Mineshaft
New changes appear great. Cave still going to really suffer (still really far away from most of the map, especially all-important central drilling). Closest res towers quite far (no inherent extractors, especially if marines start repair). Cavern will immediately be contested by marines (all they need to do is snipe cysts), as will crusher. Solution would be to re-add the north point res tower, and / or move sorting further east (also separating it from deposit slightly). Or make crusher smaller, move the RT further north and move Cave south / west closer to the map in general.
Veil
(I imagine the creator wants to keep this map as true to the original as possible, but some changes are needed)
Vent at skylights, skulk gets in early, gorges, and skylights extractor is essentially unobtainable for marines. Solution is to modify the vent so that there is a vertical drop in it such that going from skylights to overlook means climbing up, and let marines back into the vent skylights side. Or, cover the vent exit like most of the other vent exits in Veil. Second problem is Overlook path to subsector hive. Its long straight, some cover, but very wide and leads to a fairly open room. Countless times I see Marines rush this location and easily hold it. Solution is a vent from the sub extractor to the hall outside overlook, or into overlook itself, and or more cover in overlook / subsector approach. Second issue is the crane structure in cargo, should marines hold cargo, it is a simple matter for a skulk to evolve gorge and then bile the entire marine base with nothing for marines to easily respond with. There needs to be a ladder to get up there for marines, or an opposing catwalk marines can get to to fire across from. I also feel pipeline as a starting hive is very problematic, but have no solution for that atm.
Docking
First and foremost remove locker as possible starting point for marines. Courtyard causes massive problems for alien harvesters, which are easily harassed (for Marine locker / terminal start). And should marines start cafeteria, locker and terminal essentially are given to them. No immediate solution comes to mind, but something that should be looked into is combining the terminal north exits into 1 exit (like a capital "T") except with the left tunnel going to courtyard being offset vertically from the right going to east wing. The problem arises when aliens start Departures and Marines start cafe. The distance is very far for aliens who then need to defend terminal ( a very open techpoint) from 2 opposing directions. Another option is to move the path between terminal and courtyard, to between courtyard and the tunnel leading to east wing (A north exit from the tunnel that turns left and meets courtyard on the right side, at the base of the catwalk stairs perhaps). Swap east wing power / extractor locations (cysts can be sniped from eastwing hallway should aliens try to keep it). Maintenance vent to stability, raise the maintenance exit up so marines cant just walk in, or put a vertical drop in to limit their penetration.
General balance / gameplay issues
I do not mean that these issues are horrible and make the game unplayable, there are obvious strategies that can be used to counter these scenarios from either side, the problem is the difference in difficulty / viability of the problem verses the solution.
Scenario:
Close start on summit, both teams even split rush the 2 nearest res nodes. Who wins? With marine speed the way it is, they get to the shared res node as fast (or faster depending on distance) as the aliens, because not every alien can wall-jump, while every marine can press shift. The go-to strategy for skulks being ambush, aliens are at a very large disadvantage.
Solution : Slow marines down some.
Alien spawncamping vs marine spawncamping.
Early game :
Marines require ammo drops, maybe health drops, unchallenged 2 marines can keep a new hive free of eggs easily.
Aliens get no help (maybe enzyme) camping 1 IP, 2 aliens will probably win (if comm doesn't get out), however the fact that 3 bites required to kill a spawning marine, each marine has a chance to do damage / get away and distract the skulks for the next spawning marine.
Mid game :
Marines have a few upgrades, shotguns, still easy to keep 1 hive egg free (and slow alien spawn rate enough to matter). Not an insurmountable problem for aliens now that they have 2nd hive (and higher LF, at least 1 lerk hopefully).
Even harder for aliens, marines have upgrades, phase gates and 2 IP's at this point, unless the marines aren't dying out in the field, camping an IP is naught but a distraction, maybe a way to cause a beacon, but not likely.
Late game:
Marines have full upgrades including jetpacks, 2 shotgun shells to kill an egg, 2 grenades to kill 5 eggs. And / or 1 shotgun shell or 1 grenade to kill a newly spawned skulk. With ammo / health / welders 2 marines can do alot of damage quickly.
Aliens, not so much, camping IP's late game is only viable for fades because of their speed, and only effective if the bulk of the marine team is out away from phase gates. Skulks / lerks are incapable because of the amount of damage it takes to kill a fully upgraded marine vs lmg damage output.
Solution : Alien eggspawn timer (if it isn't already) needs to be tied to the # of aliens on the team, with a minimum value. Or egg spawn rate can be tied to hive maturity level. Or shift egg spawning needs to be cheaper, 2 eggs for 3 or 4 res. And give alien commander an egg count icon somewhere on the HUD (like at the top center with the other counters).
This problem was partially addressed (intentionally or not) by the cost of IP increase to 20 res for marines in 244 (instead of speeding alien spawn, marine was slowed / made more costly).
Spawncamping related problem (upgrades)
Marines spawn with armor / weapons upgrades. Aliens do not. I have mentioned this once before on the forums. Dead aliens get to sit for 1-24 seconds after they die, depending on wave spawn timer and egg availability. Let aliens choose at least 1 upgrade if not all available / appropriate upgrades to spawn with while they are waiting. Or, make marines visit the arms lab (and hit "use" on it, to receive their armor / weapons upgrades after spawning.
Variety / General :
Marines have alot of variety, 3 different exos, jetpacks, 3 weapons (besides lmg). Aliens have 4 lifeforms (aside from skulks).
This is not a problem. Just a statement. Give onos devour, and fade acid rocket, gorge web, make them 4 hive abilities if you must. There needs to be some help in ending the dreaded marine turtle late game (especially if they have an exo or 2 in base still). Have acid rocket do only armor / structure damage like bile, or the reverse like lerk gas, or both and do only small amounts of damage. Devour will help keep the marines from endlessly recycling purchased weapons. I know the statement that you don't want to remove player control, but what is the possible 24 second spawn wait time for aliens if not lack of control, or vortex from fade. Let the marine being devoured axe the onos, or keep firing his weapon (maybe at reduced damage, or increased damage if its just axe, after all onos insides are squishy). I think it would be fun. 4th hive upgrades (maybe "Mutation" hive) add Focus and hypermutation back in. Bring back Marine HMG and nerf shotty a little bit. Shotgun seems to be trying to perform dual-duty at the moment. Reduce shotgun research costs to account for added costs of researching HMG. Lerk gas, while the damage is still a little high i think, more a problem because of its opacity and prevalence (how wide the dispersion is). Many corridors, one lerk gasing makes the corridor death, and impossible to see aliens. I just think it needs toned down a little. While on the subject, it really feels like lerks are REQUIRED for aliens to win, and 2 or 3 good lerks, can almost gaurantee an alien win.
Late game skulk viability :
In a word, useless. Jetpacks, exos, turrets. Skulks are fodder at best and target practice at worst. Give (at least skulks) a % damage / carapace increase based on the number of MATURE hives the aliens have, maybe even a speed boost as well, or instead, just to try. Giving this bonus to all alien lifeforms would also help with late game marine turtle, and to balance against the numerous methods of attack marines have vs the more limited aliens.