Did Exos get indirectly overbuffed recently?

CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
While they were in a too bad place before, I feel like Exos are in a too good place now.
Their buffed movement speed adds a bit to that, but the main shift in balance came indirectly from the recent introduction of Weld & Follow MACs. The commander can basically pay 5 res to give an Exo a constant mid-combat healing aura that can only be countered by Bile Bomb. And those 5 res can be stacked as the commander desires.

Some thoughts in that regard:
-Before this feature was introduced, it actually took a dedicated management from the commander to provide this kind of healing buff, preventing him from performing other supportive duties at the same time such as medpack spamming somewhere else.
-Alternatively it was tying up marines to weld the Exo, shifting some combat power to supporting power, similar to how a Gorge can't participate in a fight while it is actively healing an Onos.
-The Bile Bomb nerf bat also hit the only counter to excessive MAC spam hard by getting the range so low that a Gorge can't reliably support his team by taking the MACs out because it will be dead before it even gets into range.

There is nothing wrong with having a comfort feature like Weld & Follow in place, it was somewhat needed. But other things might need to be looked at now in terms of balance because the power of that feature might have been underestimated. You can basically double the life expectancy of any marine unit just by investing those 5 res into a MAC.

Some suggestions:
-Buff Bile Bomb range and splash range again. The damage nerf can remain to prevent the easy base takedowns, but the ability should retain it's aspect of countering everything related to a Robotics Factory.
-Reduce the number of MACs that can be built per CC to 3 instead of the current 5. Currently they can be mindlessly spammed, even on 1 CC already. It would also make it more attractive for marines to actually take a third CC if they really want that kind of support from MACs.
-Give the khammander a similar automated buff for his troops by allowing a "Follow & Enzyme" command for Drifters that will make the Drifter buff aliens in fixed intervals with Enzyme as soon as the followed alien starts an attack. (Only problem with that is that Enzyme costs tres and could drain the bank account unwillingly, so it should maybe rather be a free ability on a longer cooldown then).


Opinions?

Comments

  • KamamuraKamamura Join Date: 2013-03-06 Member: 183736Members, Reinforced - Gold
    I agree that weld and follow MAC is too good a unit for just 5 tres, but I think giving MAC more intelligence and autonomy is a good thing overall. I like autonomous units, not constant click-an-ability systems like Starcraft which I consider obsolete. If MAC is too good now, maybe it should cost more. I agree about drifters, it's true that they should be able to do something on their own too.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    edited March 2013
    Personally I've always felt that MACS, although lovable, don't really fit in all that well, simply because they're designed to take over tasks that are supposed to be marine jobs.

    For instance, making the exo vulnerable enough so it has to move out with at least one marine welder creates a bit of teamwork, and compensates for their DPS strength. Being able to build a MAC train and ordering it to follow around an exo undermines that. It also clutters up everything.
  • kingkrabbe.#bofkingkrabbe.#bof Join Date: 2012-10-21 Member: 162892Members
    I didn't play much NS2 recently but the movement buff is a great buff for EXOs. What you described adds to that. So I see the problem too.

    I think your 2nd solution (reduced number of MACs) is a valid suggestion because

    - MACs are not as vital as Drifters (now with foresight removed) and you don't really need that many
    - MACs are more versatile than Drifters (weld, build, emp)

    When I think about it, another solution would be to increase the price of MACs to 7 or 10.

    The other 2 suggestions seem not as good: buffed bilebomb would be op in many other situations (ninja gorge, stuff like that) and the khammander can easily follow aliens with 1 drifter and enzyme them because he doesn't have to support them in any other way (except bonewall)
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    edited March 2013
    In my experience exos are fine so long as you don't play on servers with very large player counts. The game kind of breaks with any more than 8v8 or 9v9. Mech trains are more powerful as you have more units to support them while leaving stuff behind to defend and, of course, eggs are a nightmare.

    That said the MAC change does give a considerable boost to the marines and I've seen a few games now where getting one or two MACs even fairly early on to serve as support units was surprisingly effective. It's definitely something to keep an eye on but given that the change is fairly recent and that an awful lot of the games over the past week have been chock full of inexperienced players I think it's a little early to call a verdict on it. If it does seem to be a big issue then reducing the maximum number of MACs may be in order; AI units tend to put a huge strain on both the server and client performance as well so any excuse to lower the total number of AI things is kinda nice.

    I definitely don't think that the problems are the exos themselves, and they sorely needed the mobility boosts. The railgun in particular was downright useless before it got its hitscan width and speed boosted in early tests.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Heh, just wait until commanders figure out they can put MACs to auto-follow jetpackers. Every jetpacker with his/hers own auto-repair. Armor 3 is nothing to scoff at, add a comm that keeps HP topped you've got yourself an unstoppable force.

    However, before an increase in cost (please for the love of God forget about limits...) I'd like to see bilebomb back in its former glory. Previously you could just bile the MACs from a mile away, 2 biles would mean ALL dead MACs, which drastically reduced their effectivity. Why is my effectivity red. Is it not a word? Pffprptpft. Anyway, keeping your MACs repairing a frontline exo basically meant you'd likely lose them all.
  • KamamuraKamamura Join Date: 2013-03-06 Member: 183736Members, Reinforced - Gold
    However, before an increase in cost (please for the love of God forget about limits...) I'd like to see bilebomb back in its former glory. Previously you could just bile the MACs from a mile away, 2 biles would mean ALL dead MACs, which drastically reduced their effectivity. Why is my effectivity red. Is it not a word? Pffprptpft. Anyway, keeping your MACs repairing a frontline exo basically meant you'd likely lose them all.

    Before bile bomb is restored to its former glory, I would like to see commander warnings about attacked powernodes repaired. Nothing is more exploity than a single gorge ninja bile bombing mainbase power node, immediately ending the game.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    That's why I said that the damage nerf should be kept but only the range and splash increased. Gorges should be able to stun those MACs on the Exos from far away, not instantly deplete the HP of a Power Node in a base.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    I don't know, I feel like the damage is awfully low too. But in any case, lets just buff it somehow and see how it looks then. :p
  • YMICrazyYMICrazy Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165986Members
    However, before an increase in cost (please for the love of God forget about limits...) I'd like to see bilebomb back in its former glory. Previously you could just bile the MACs from a mile away, 2 biles would mean ALL dead MACs, which drastically reduced their effectivity. Why is my effectivity red. Is it not a word? Pffprptpft. Anyway, keeping your MACs repairing a frontline exo basically meant you'd likely lose them all.

    What exactly happened to bile bomb? I noticed when I was in an exo it barely did as much damage and they had A LOT of trouble hitting me from the distance even though they were pretty close. Seems useless now though I never go Gorge unless the team is rushing. I sort of agree with Kamamura in notifications because the power nodes (a disliked mechanic) ruined the best ability of the Gorge because of how fast it could take out a base when the problem was with the node itself.

  • ShakerShaker Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9582Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I have come to really hate where exos have taken the game. They are fun to be in, sure, but they have had a negative affect on the rest of the game. You have a ton of pub players that spend 0 res all game in hopes of getting an exo, win or lose. You have comms holding off all tech and trying to rush exos ("trust me, we will win the game this way!") You can trounce a team with a good player in a dual exo with a single guy welding. They dominate new players to the point of frustration. They lock down a hive solo by crushing all the eggs and doing a ridiculous amount of dps to the hive. They have eliminated the idea of a mid game for marines (this is where true heavy armor and hmg should be, i guess).

    Although it is fun to watch a winning marine team all buy exos and march away from there base only to lose it to a few skulks.

    I hate exos.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    All sorts of nerfs during a rather small period of time. Damage nerf, nerf in the AoE range, nerf at the range, ...just ALOT_normal.png of nerfs.
  • YMICrazyYMICrazy Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165986Members
    ^Ouch. I never thought bile bomb was a problem vs marines except on nodes which took out an entire base pretty fast. But a better solution could have been better base notifications, more HP/Armor to the node, or just removing an entire base going down because of one node and replacing the function with one of the many ideas people suggested in the suggestions forums. Removes the fun aspect of the Gorge tbh. Hope something is done about it.
  • GorgenapperGorgenapper Join Date: 2012-09-05 Member: 157916Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I am okay with the bile bomb damage and AOE nerf, this forces gorges to group up for effective results, or it takes one good sneaky (and patient) gorge with adrenaline and carapace to take out the power in base. What I dislike is the way they went about nerfing the range. The bombs don't move as quickly as they used to, and they occasionally fly off to the left or right, one wasted bile bomb for no apparent reason.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited March 2013
    Only thing you'd have to do is limit one Mac per player/unit.
    Now you can balance the weld rate, price, and prevent op trains where anything but bile bomb can't realistically kill all Macs without dying first.
  • bongofishbongofish Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19893Members
    ALL dead MACs, which drastically reduced their effectivity. Why is my effectivity red. Is it not a word? Pffprptpft.

    Effectiveness is the word you meant. Effectivity may technically be a word, but it is a wanky psuedo word made up by someone who forgot that the word effectiveness existed.
  • AkimotoAkimoto Norway Join Date: 2013-03-03 Member: 183642Members
    edited March 2013
    Lets give drifters the ability to heal other players to balance it out. :P
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    I've come to the point where it almost feels pointless to go on as aliens as soon as the marines have Exos on the field.
    Basically every aspect that made alien game fun becomes pointless suddenly:
    -No more sneaky, you appear as white circle in the Exo HUD for whatever reason ("screw gameplay, it just looks cool").
    -Most of the lifeforms that you saved a long time for die in an instant as soon as an Exo looks at them and they can't do much about it.
    -No more jumping around the enemy, taking a few shots and catching him in a defenseless moment while he reloads or runs out of ammo: Exo has infinite ammo and is with his fist far from vulnerable while he is on cooldown, if that is ever going to be the case.
    -As said above, you can essentially lock an entire Hive down with a single Exo just by walking over the eggs (which may be worth several tres from Shift Hatching), all the while continuing to shoot stuff without any impact. The closest thing aliens have as similar spawn lockdown ability is using Vortex on an IP as Fade, but that does not only require one Fade per IP to be effective but also binds the Fade actively to that duty, so it can't attack anything else while vortexing.

    The Exo is basically the noobtube of NS2. You want it in the game because it gives even the worst player a chance to shine and kill some pros. What is problematic is if the weapon with the lowest skill floor becomes the best one available in the game, i.e. when there is no weapon with a higher skill floor that can effectively counter this weapon. Good weapon/game mechanic design in multiplayer games does not only ask "is this weapon fun to use for the player" but also "is this weapon fun for the player that it is being used against". In other words: does the weapon open up some nice new mechanics to counter it (a good example would be the Shock Combo from UT2k4: other players can shoot the enemy Shock Core with their own Shock Rifle to deny that combo or even kill the enemy with it).

    Things you could try to balance the Exo more:
    -Reduce the cooldown amount of the weapons (i.e. it takes longer for the weapon to cool back to 0, regardless of overheating). By doing that you make the Exo more vulnerable if he keeps his constant fire up and can be caught off guard if aliens decide to close in. Basically it creates a similar reload period that normal marines would have, giving aliens a chance to counter it.
    -Remove the egg-squashing ability by walking over them. It's just way too powerful for 50 res. If they want to clear that Hive area they should have to use their weapons like everyone else or wait for Grenade Launcher support. (You might consider to only make it available to the "heavy" dual-minigun Exo, though that might confuse players for consistency and honestly I'd rather prefer to have that feature gone entirely).
    If you adjust the egg HP/armor ratio to be the same for normal weapons by reducing the HP but increasing the armor, you can make Exos extra-effective against eggs because they won't see a difference between armor and HP.
    Example: If the current egg health/armor ratio was 100/25 = 150 normal damage HP and 125 heavy damage HP, then a new ratio 50/50 = 150 normal damage HP and 100 heavy damage HP would favor Exos (and disadvantage pistols).
  • EucomolhamasEucomolhamas Join Date: 2013-03-10 Member: 183841Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Hmm, I've killed a decent player in an exo 1v1 as a skulk a few times, is this bad? :D
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Kamamura wrote: »
    I agree that weld and follow MAC is too good a unit for just 5 tres, but I think giving MAC more intelligence and autonomy is a good thing overall. I like autonomous units, not constant click-an-ability systems like Starcraft which I consider obsolete. If MAC is too good now, maybe it should cost more. I agree about drifters, it's true that they should be able to do something on their own too.
    This.

    Balancing AI by making them act stupid is a terrible method for a RTS interface. Better to make commands work well and balance them in another method. Possible ideas include:
    - Increase cost
    - Reduce health
    - Only one MAC repair by player/structure
    - MACs stop repairing when under attack
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited March 2013
    Increasing their cost limits their functionality in areas other than combat, as well as impacting robotics factory viability.

    Any less health and they aren't worth their res - or worse it becomes a binary mechanic and again impacts their usefulness in other areas , which isn't needed.

    Best to go with #3

    Again, it would have a large enough impact by allowing all lifeforms to disable the often used mac train (that could still happen with only those other options implemented) and finally allow for more fine tuning.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited March 2013
    Hmm, I've killed a decent player in an exo 1v1 as a skulk a few times, is this bad? :D

    I just so nearly killed a railgun exo as a skulk, while it was in warehouse with 3 light marines all shooting at me. I did about 500 damage to it before I died!
    The marines weren't derpy on the whole, it was an awesome close game with some real talent on their team. Just at that point I think the talent was on the other side of the map :D

    (edit for clarity, I've taken down a *lot* of exos 1v1 as skulk, some as fade (I tend to be more cautious) and a couple as lerk with spikes (!), too.)
  • GrizeenGrizeen Join Date: 2013-03-17 Member: 184036Members
    when an exo has like... 5 macs and a regular marine welding him... basically invincible if the exo knows to avoid bb and just kill the gorge... when exos like that come out ppl say gg... when an onos or 2 come out no one automatically say gg.
  • ruprechtruprecht Join Date: 2013-03-16 Member: 184022Members
    i cant bite then like i used to; lost a lot of jump circle strafe ability.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    You especially can't circle non-dual Exos easily anymore because their fist got buffed so much that they will easily hit any Skulk without even really trying.
  • XaoXao Join Date: 2012-12-12 Member: 174840Members
    These are the worst threads, people taking a loss personally and blaming perfectly viable strategies or elements of a game that would have taken over 20-30 minutes of game play holding 3-4+ RTs all game long to roll out this kind of hardware.

    All the suggestions in them are horrible and reek of "I did X and it didn't beat Y, buff X or nerf Y".

    Anything that comes remotely close to buffing gorges makes me want to smash my face into a desk, if anything the fat fucks are still OP and people still temp/perm gorge at all times during comp play.

    Saying the exo is the noobtube of NS2 is so incredibly wrong I wouldn't even know where to start, not a day of NS2 goes by that someone either new or extremely arrogant doesn't get solo'd as a single/rail/dual by 3-4 skulks walking in the wrong area alone. I thought this thread was going to complain about exos being able to walk backwards as fast as forwards, I was going to agree there should be a slight speed nerf as it's obvious in game that as an onos attacking an exo you constantly 'walk into' the exo and lose momentum, allowing them to gain precious seconds that can take you out while retreating. Instead this thread went in a whole other direction about MACs and exos being OP pub stompers, which they just aren't.
  • SeahuntsSeahunts Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151973Members
    I have no comment on balance in this matter. I just wanted to say that the follow AI did a great job at keeping two rookies alive in a dual and a rail on the weekend. I gave them two Macs each and was surprised how long they lasted when they walked out of base with no support.

    I'll definitely try assigning one to a jet packer next. Although I assume phase gates will see the Mac running all over the map on its own.
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Members
    Xao wrote: »
    These are the worst threads, people taking a loss personally and blaming perfectly viable strategies or elements of a game that would have taken over 20-30 minutes of game play holding 3-4+ RTs all game long to roll out this kind of hardware.

    All the suggestions in them are horrible and reek of "I did X and it didn't beat Y, buff X or nerf Y".

    Anything that comes remotely close to buffing gorges makes me want to smash my face into a desk, if anything the fat fucks are still OP and people still temp/perm gorge at all times during comp play.

    Saying the exo is the noobtube of NS2 is so incredibly wrong I wouldn't even know where to start, not a day of NS2 goes by that someone either new or extremely arrogant doesn't get solo'd as a single/rail/dual by 3-4 skulks walking in the wrong area alone. I thought this thread was going to complain about exos being able to walk backwards as fast as forwards, I was going to agree there should be a slight speed nerf as it's obvious in game that as an onos attacking an exo you constantly 'walk into' the exo and lose momentum, allowing them to gain precious seconds that can take you out while retreating. Instead this thread went in a whole other direction about MACs and exos being OP pub stompers, which they just aren't.

    i think you're using solo a bit too liberally there, and gorge got straight up abused by the past few updates.

    babblers? really? gorge tunnels? yeah fun to play with, but i don't think i've ever been in a situation where it would have saved much travel time. and spit got nerfed a while back, so did clogs, hydras can hit better, but they now leave trails. also, did i mention clogs? and now I gotta be to be in sentry distance to effectively bile sentries it seems...

    yay for nerfing 3 aspects of bile bomb where nerfing one would have sufficed.
  • SeahuntsSeahunts Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151973Members
    It does seem that the nerf bat is often a sledgehammer when a small mallet would have sufficed. They should nerf things one at a time rather than in 2s or 3s, check the results then beef or nerf more.
  • MrPinkMrPink Join Date: 2002-05-28 Member: 678Members
    If you don't pay close attention to your MAC train, it's going to be 50 tres down the drain and 1 minute of building real quick
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Marine Commander is inherently more difficult than khammander because it requires a much more responsive team and a closer level of contact and communication. I don't see it as a major problem that MACs are a bit easier to use than Drifters now.
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