You can't honestly blame their intuitions. Automated construction units are pretty much the most standard units in every RTS game, and popular game winners are siege units. Combine both in one building, and suddenly it sounds like the best thing to build to any inexperienced commander.
Yeah, new guys tend to go for whatever seems the most cool thing to do.
Same in SMNC: newbies preferred to go Commando as their first character archetype, despite them being one of the hardest to play due to their squishiness and being dependent on good positioning. Because they prefer to be the cool ninja chick or super hero over some tanky bearded Tank guy that would have been more suitable.
All you can do is to teach them better. That is if they listen at all.
I was in two games where the marine comm was obviously a rookie. For two games straight he insisted on building sentries around everything. I pointed out that sentries weren't the way to go and he said "What sort of on-site defense should I build then?" I said "people." Another few games recently where the Khamm was doing something similar by putting whips around every extractor.
It's weird having to trust people to defend your structures. Not really many other games do that. And considering their previous experiences with NS2 (being nil) and having teams that don't know much, it's understandable. People jump in the comm chair because they think it's just like any other RTS out there. They don't put two and two together to realize that instead of AI, people are what you command and that's how you win.
With all the rookies, I actually found sentries to be required if you wanted reliable defenses. Put them on your phase gate in the front lines and you never have to worry about it dieing that game. Your teammates can slowly figure out how to get there to protect it on their own time. Plus they are like auto-aim for rookies. It helps kill stuff so they don't have to land as many shots.
After spending half a match trying to get one marine to go Bar and Cafe to build the extractors, just sending MACs there is a lot easier too. It is an RTS where your units ignore your orders and call you a noob. :P
Can't blame them for UWE not knowing how to properly implement sentries.
Why even have it in the game if you're just going to offer it in a practically useless state. Fixing them shouldn't be all that hard with the current hard cap mechanism in place to be honest.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
So why dont you state a way to 'fix sentries'.
Right now its either they are weak and we do not use them, or they are to strong and you spam them everywhere. I prefer them being weak, looking at the alternative
Because the robotics facility is not in the advanced building tab, where it should be.
Rookies just build the stuff in order. Many don't read by line, but by column. The robo fac is the second building then (first option as you already have #1, the CC).
Anybody who ever played Starcraft should have seen this coming ("engineering bay" was a secondary structure in the EXACT same spot, and guess what happened...)
Also, structures are poorly named.
People think robo factory = sounds cool = where you build the robots = EXOS! Ever noob wants an exo! I've seen tons of people wondering why they can't buy a "mech" from the robo factory.
Who would think you have to go to a "prototype lab" to buy a "robot"? Makes no sense.
Prototype lab should get a better, more striking name (like "Advanced Combat Hyper Mega Something", or just call it "Mech and Jetpack Lab"), and robo factory should be renamed so it is clear it's a secondary, less important structure.
Same with Armory vs. Arms Lab (tons of people tyring to get weapons from the Arms Lab).
Arms Lab should be renamed to Infantry Upgrades Lab, Infantry Lab, Upgrade Lab, or something.
Also, rename Exo Suit to Mech Suit.
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That, and newbies are drawn to sentries like crazy. I was commanding one game, and had to constantly say "NO TURRETS! NO!" to a player demanding them over voip, "because they are good and I know how this game works" :P
Sentries are useful, but only in rare circumstances. Personally I feel that they are perfectly fine as-is.
Like teams of less than 6. Heck, less than 8. These 24 player server should basically never see sentries used. Unless they're solely for preventing a rarely visited base from getting infested.
I still see people playing sentries in dumb ways, like all of them pointing in one direction and leaving the battery completely vulnerable. **** like that makes me shake my head, then go buy mines to secure the sentry's flank and sides.
I still see people playing sentries in dumb ways, like all of them pointing in one direction and leaving the battery completely vulnerable. **** like that makes me shake my head, then go buy mines to secure the sentry's flank and sides.
I always point all my sentries forward on the front line bases. Usually against a wall. I want them shooting at whats coming so its weak for the marines to kill. I don't need them to be self sufficient completely.
I still see people playing sentries in dumb ways, like all of them pointing in one direction and leaving the battery completely vulnerable. **** like that makes me shake my head, then go buy mines to secure the sentry's flank and sides.
I always point all my sentries forward on the front line bases. Usually against a wall. I want them shooting at whats coming so its weak for the marines to kill. I don't need them to be self sufficient completely.
I generally place sentries in areas where I don't expect reliable Marine support so they gotta be somewhat self sufficient. Frankly, the only reason I build them is to prevent harassment. If I had regular Marine support there, I wouldn't need to place sentries.
I don't bother placing sentries where marines are actively attacking. Rather use the money to get upgrades and research. Or building forward bases, nanoshielding and scanning. And the occasional ARC push. Between an ARC on the front lines or a sentry? I'm going with the ARC
The RARE occasion I do use them where marines are attacking is to give Exos time to fall back and get MAC repaired, and in that case, I do place them all facing forward. But that's because the Exos are there to shoot the aliens and the aliens are almost always more focused on the exos than the sentry.
As a gorge heavy player, the vulnerable sentry placement just makes it an easy 20 res drain on Marines. Sentries are already pretty crappy at gorge killing. But when they place them in a way where I can send babblers and bile them without risk of any harm? Easy.
The optimal sentry structure I've found is like a 4 cornered diamond where 3 corners are sentries facing the battery in the middle and the 4th corner is the direction you want the entire thing to face. All 3 sentries can cover the door and the sentry battery, and each sentry has 2 sentries covering it due to the 180 degree firing arc.
Sentries aren't useless, they're just expensive (and with good reason.) They're a luxury item is kind of what it really boils down to, they're great to have if you can afford them, but they are unnecessary.
Sentries aren't useless, they're just expensive (and with good reason.) They're a luxury item is kind of what it really boils down to, they're great to have if you can afford them, but they are unnecessary.
The problem here is, the time you need them most (the early game) is the time you cannot afford them, since every other tech you could research at that point of the game is more important. Mid to late game they become useless, since bile bomb completely decimates every notion of sentries having ever existed, and a lone fade can do the same even to a well placed battery.
They can be useful if you know the opponent team don't know what they're doing, though, but that's a terrible pole to balance a game mechanic against.
So why dont you state a way to 'fix sentries'.
Right now its either they are weak and we do not use them, or they are to strong and you spam them everywhere. I prefer them being weak, looking at the alternative
How does one spam hardcapped sentries?
Just look at NS 1, sentries worked even without hardcaps.
Here's some good ideas:
- Make sentries require Robo factories or only power nodes, none of that ridiculous sentry battery nonsense, hardcap sentries to 4 per RB (and force users to place them near the RB, with 1 rb per power node if need be)
- Buff sentry hp, nerf upward vertical LOS (So they no longer can track things way above them) again to old NS1/NS2 beta stats
- Increase sentry cost to 10 t.res again
- Re-enable lerk gas 'confusing' sentries
- Increase the range in which you can place sentries around a RB or power node, i.e single bilebomb will no longer deal with the entire sentry investment.
Any or all of the above would already be a significant step in making them an actual, viable T.res sink again. Anyone who played NS1/Ns2 beta will attest to the fact that UWE only had to hardcap them, but instead they went overkill on the nerf train.
How does one spam hardcapped sentries?
Just look at NS 1, sentries worked even without hardcaps.
The spam was a problem, but the core issue is that PvE isn't particularly exciting in a FPS environment. As long as its weak and limited (think sentries in TF2), then the majority of the game will revolve around the more exciting PvP.
For example of how bad it can turn out, just check out Nuclear Dawn.
Comments
You can't honestly blame their intuitions. Automated construction units are pretty much the most standard units in every RTS game, and popular game winners are siege units. Combine both in one building, and suddenly it sounds like the best thing to build to any inexperienced commander.
Same in SMNC: newbies preferred to go Commando as their first character archetype, despite them being one of the hardest to play due to their squishiness and being dependent on good positioning. Because they prefer to be the cool ninja chick or super hero over some tanky bearded Tank guy that would have been more suitable.
All you can do is to teach them better. That is if they listen at all.
It's weird having to trust people to defend your structures. Not really many other games do that. And considering their previous experiences with NS2 (being nil) and having teams that don't know much, it's understandable. People jump in the comm chair because they think it's just like any other RTS out there. They don't put two and two together to realize that instead of AI, people are what you command and that's how you win.
See, you still give thema object to help defend and more comms take it.
After spending half a match trying to get one marine to go Bar and Cafe to build the extractors, just sending MACs there is a lot easier too. It is an RTS where your units ignore your orders and call you a noob. :P
Why even have it in the game if you're just going to offer it in a practically useless state. Fixing them shouldn't be all that hard with the current hard cap mechanism in place to be honest.
Right now its either they are weak and we do not use them, or they are to strong and you spam them everywhere. I prefer them being weak, looking at the alternative
Rookies just build the stuff in order. Many don't read by line, but by column. The robo fac is the second building then (first option as you already have #1, the CC).
Anybody who ever played Starcraft should have seen this coming ("engineering bay" was a secondary structure in the EXACT same spot, and guess what happened...)
Also, structures are poorly named.
People think robo factory = sounds cool = where you build the robots = EXOS! Ever noob wants an exo! I've seen tons of people wondering why they can't buy a "mech" from the robo factory.
Who would think you have to go to a "prototype lab" to buy a "robot"? Makes no sense.
Prototype lab should get a better, more striking name (like "Advanced Combat Hyper Mega Something", or just call it "Mech and Jetpack Lab"), and robo factory should be renamed so it is clear it's a secondary, less important structure.
Same with Armory vs. Arms Lab (tons of people tyring to get weapons from the Arms Lab).
Arms Lab should be renamed to Infantry Upgrades Lab, Infantry Lab, Upgrade Lab, or something.
Also, rename Exo Suit to Mech Suit.
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That, and newbies are drawn to sentries like crazy. I was commanding one game, and had to constantly say "NO TURRETS! NO!" to a player demanding them over voip, "because they are good and I know how this game works" :P
Like teams of less than 6. Heck, less than 8. These 24 player server should basically never see sentries used. Unless they're solely for preventing a rarely visited base from getting infested.
I still see people playing sentries in dumb ways, like all of them pointing in one direction and leaving the battery completely vulnerable. **** like that makes me shake my head, then go buy mines to secure the sentry's flank and sides.
I generally place sentries in areas where I don't expect reliable Marine support so they gotta be somewhat self sufficient. Frankly, the only reason I build them is to prevent harassment. If I had regular Marine support there, I wouldn't need to place sentries.
I don't bother placing sentries where marines are actively attacking. Rather use the money to get upgrades and research. Or building forward bases, nanoshielding and scanning. And the occasional ARC push. Between an ARC on the front lines or a sentry? I'm going with the ARC
The RARE occasion I do use them where marines are attacking is to give Exos time to fall back and get MAC repaired, and in that case, I do place them all facing forward. But that's because the Exos are there to shoot the aliens and the aliens are almost always more focused on the exos than the sentry.
As a gorge heavy player, the vulnerable sentry placement just makes it an easy 20 res drain on Marines. Sentries are already pretty crappy at gorge killing. But when they place them in a way where I can send babblers and bile them without risk of any harm? Easy.
oh how i well and truly miss that.
The problem here is, the time you need them most (the early game) is the time you cannot afford them, since every other tech you could research at that point of the game is more important. Mid to late game they become useless, since bile bomb completely decimates every notion of sentries having ever existed, and a lone fade can do the same even to a well placed battery.
They can be useful if you know the opponent team don't know what they're doing, though, but that's a terrible pole to balance a game mechanic against.
How does one spam hardcapped sentries?
Just look at NS 1, sentries worked even without hardcaps.
Here's some good ideas:
- Make sentries require Robo factories or only power nodes, none of that ridiculous sentry battery nonsense, hardcap sentries to 4 per RB (and force users to place them near the RB, with 1 rb per power node if need be)
- Buff sentry hp, nerf upward vertical LOS (So they no longer can track things way above them) again to old NS1/NS2 beta stats
- Increase sentry cost to 10 t.res again
- Re-enable lerk gas 'confusing' sentries
- Increase the range in which you can place sentries around a RB or power node, i.e single bilebomb will no longer deal with the entire sentry investment.
Any or all of the above would already be a significant step in making them an actual, viable T.res sink again. Anyone who played NS1/Ns2 beta will attest to the fact that UWE only had to hardcap them, but instead they went overkill on the nerf train.
For example of how bad it can turn out, just check out Nuclear Dawn.