The Kharaa and TSF Economy Discussion and Possible Changes Thread. (TKTEDPCT!)
Stripetails
Join Date: 2013-01-30 Member: 182644Members, NS2 Playtester
Join Date: 2013-01-30 Member: 182644Members, NS2 Playtester
Hello everyone! I've noticed a large amount of discussion on forums that revolves around how both teams in the game have an incredibly similar economy, with entirely different ways on which they exercise said economy.
From what I've seen through many games, one of the biggest controversies is with how Pres gets spent on both sides. With the exception of Gorges, the Kharaa must sink large amounts of Pres at once into their lifeforms while Marines comparably sink an increasingly larger amount as the game goes on unless they're saving for a massive purchase at the end game such a Dual Minigun Exo.
Before I continue I want to set out a small list that shows what each side can spend their Pres upon.
(All information taken from the NS2 Community Wiki.)
Kharaa Pres spending:
1. Gorge, 10 Pres. (Has the ability to build hydras at 3pres each, babblers which are 1pres each, Gorge Tunnels which are 10 Pres for each entrance. )
2. Lerk, 30 Pres. No further cost.
3. Fade, 50 Pres. No further cost.
4. Onos, 75 Pres. No further cost.
Marine Pres spending:
1. Welder. 5 Pres.
2. Shotgun. 20 Pres.
3. Mines. 15 Pres.
4. Flamethrower. 25 Pres.
5. Grenade Launcher. 25 Pres.
6. Jet Packs. 10 Pres.
7. Exo (Single arm). 50 Pres.
8. Dual Mini Exo. 75 Pres.
After looking over this list we can then take a look at how each team's Tres spending affect their Pres spending.
Kharaa Tres spending that directly influences a Pres purchase:
2nd and 3rd hive: 40 - 80 Tres.
1. Spurs, Shells, and Veils. (10 Tres, 15 Tres, 5 Tres.) Upgraded it would be. (15 - 30 Tres for Spurs. 10 - 25 for Shells. 10 - 20 for Veils.)
2. Gorge Tunnels. 30 Tres.
3. Bile Bomb. 20 Tres.
4. Leap. 25 Tres.
5. Xenocide. 30 Tres
6. Spores. 20 Tres.
7. Umbra. 30 Tres.
8. Blink. 30 Tres.
9. Vortex. 30 Tres.
10. Stomp. 30 Tres.
Total Investment 460 (All units fully upgraded cost)
Marine Tres spending that directly influences a Pres purchase:
2nd CC: 15 Tres.
Armory - 10 Tres.
1. Research Welder. 10 Tres.
2. Research Shotgun. 20 Tres.
3. Research Mines. 15 Tres.
Upgrade to Advanced Armory - 20 Tres.
4. Research Grenade Launcher. 20 Tres.
5. Research Flamethrower. 25 Tres.
Proto Lab - 40 Tres.
6. Research Jetpacks. 25 Tres.
7. Research Exosuit. 30 Tres.
8. Research Dual Mini. 20 Tres.
These Tres numbers don't really affect a players choice in any case with the exception of Exos.
Arms Lab:
Weapons lvl 1, 2, & 3. - 15, 25, 35 Tres.
Armor lvl 1, 2, & 3. - 15, 25, 35 Tres.
Total investment 400 Tres. (All units fully upgraded)
The major difference between both sides is that the Aliens spend their Pres for a new lifeform, and the commander outfits their lifeform with what they feel fits the situation. Though the initial cost is high, all alien Pres lifeforms will be upgraded for free as the game goes on. Nearly all the alien lifeforms are meant specifically for hit and run attacks, every alien unit has an escape mechanism that can quickly remove them from the battlefield while Marines do not have such a trait or ability that the aliens cannot counter (Besides beacon). Because of this alien higher life forms such as the Lerk or the Fade often pay for themselves far faster than a Marine investment because they spend less time dead. You seldom see a Lerk or Fade die unless they get into a situation that was very bad from the get go. (IE: Blinking into a group of marines with no distractions, clinging to the ceiling to spike a power node behind the enemy's lines.) This being said it's not impossible for them to die by other player skill, it's just much less likely to see a Fade go down than a Marine as A fade can easily solo one Marine, possibly more if they hit the field early.
The Kham doesn't have to research a lifeform for an alien player to acquire a higher life form while the Marine commander must research each item before the Marines even have the chance to use said item, then the commander must upgrade the Marine's weapon level to give the marines the full benefit from their purchase. Each weapon research costs Tres, then a fixed Pres from anyone wishing to use the item researched. Depending on the layout a Marine chooses to have, their Marine can cost anywhere from 5-55 Pres (Not regarding Exos) and though most of their weapons can be recycled Jet packs cannot (Not a bad thing) nor should we assume that every weapon has 100% chance to be recycled, especially after the Gorge buff.
Another important note I'd like to add which may come up later is that both commanders can spend Tres to drop their respective players lifeforms or weapons which they could purchase with their own Pres, the costs are all the same, but there is one key difference between the two sides. While the Kharaa can give a player an Onos egg, the 75 Pres alien tech equivalent to the TSF Dual Minigun Exo, the Marines cannot drop a Dual Exo for their players, this may seem like a small thing, but it means that if the Marine team's Pres economy gets shut down there is no chance of them coming back with the strength that they had, or could have had before that point.
The Kham is free to focus all their attention and Tres on expansion and upgrades with little worry about Marines sneaking behind their lines. (Something that is even less likely if the Kham sinks 3-9 res on drifters in most maps.) While the Marine commander is encouraged to focus on expansion, keep a keen defensive eye out, and in many situations spend valuable Tres on med packs, ammo drops, and eventually Nano Shield. All of which can be forced by lone wolfs on the Kharaa side especially mid to late game. (This being said, the commander is not necessarily forced to spend their res to aid their team, it's simply the smart thing to do if you wish to continue playing and eventually win/lose.)
I could continue comparing them but I want to leave room for others to comment, add, discuss. Not everything you read on this post should be considered 100% fact as I may have made an error or many. However, I wanted to post up some numbers and give a general comparison of the key parts that both sides share and do not.
Finally, after looking over this, what would you suggest that could change one or both sides economy for a more balanced match while keeping things in your opinion, fun?
_____________
As a few starter ideas:
What if the way both teams used their Pres and Tres were truly asymmetrical? Currently they are very similar, which I believe was intended to allow the developers to balance both sides more easily as they had relatively mirrored economies, which makes calculating what res will be spent and where simpler than having two entirely different systems of currency/spending. What if we kept the Marine economy the same and swapped the Alien economy of NS2 with one more similar to NS1, where players had to get their units dropped from the Kham? As we know it now, it's already a cushy job and giving the Kham more ways to directly affect what appears on the field would lead to a more structured strategy from the alien side than the current which in pubs often means on the fly attacks, many of which the Kham can have no idea are happening if they're focused elsewhere, simply because their players had the Pres, spent it, and did it? (Yes I understand the same could be said about Marines, this is just an example!)
What if we made a smaller compromise that would prevent the dreaded alien Lifeform Explosion? Say we gave players on the Alien side a max of 25-30 Pres, limiting their evolutions to Skulks, Gorges, or Lerks. Let higher life forms be dropped by the Kham spending T-res.
What if Marines had the ability to place power nodes in sockets and purchase Extractors and Sentry nests to be placed by Marines at their own Pres costs and instead of purchasing weapons had to have them dropped by the commander at their armories? (Personally I think Marines already have quite a lot to whittle down their Pres, but once again just a general idea.)
Discuss!
From what I've seen through many games, one of the biggest controversies is with how Pres gets spent on both sides. With the exception of Gorges, the Kharaa must sink large amounts of Pres at once into their lifeforms while Marines comparably sink an increasingly larger amount as the game goes on unless they're saving for a massive purchase at the end game such a Dual Minigun Exo.
Before I continue I want to set out a small list that shows what each side can spend their Pres upon.
(All information taken from the NS2 Community Wiki.)
Kharaa Pres spending:
1. Gorge, 10 Pres. (Has the ability to build hydras at 3pres each, babblers which are 1pres each, Gorge Tunnels which are 10 Pres for each entrance. )
2. Lerk, 30 Pres. No further cost.
3. Fade, 50 Pres. No further cost.
4. Onos, 75 Pres. No further cost.
Marine Pres spending:
1. Welder. 5 Pres.
2. Shotgun. 20 Pres.
3. Mines. 15 Pres.
4. Flamethrower. 25 Pres.
5. Grenade Launcher. 25 Pres.
6. Jet Packs. 10 Pres.
7. Exo (Single arm). 50 Pres.
8. Dual Mini Exo. 75 Pres.
After looking over this list we can then take a look at how each team's Tres spending affect their Pres spending.
Kharaa Tres spending that directly influences a Pres purchase:
2nd and 3rd hive: 40 - 80 Tres.
1. Spurs, Shells, and Veils. (10 Tres, 15 Tres, 5 Tres.) Upgraded it would be. (15 - 30 Tres for Spurs. 10 - 25 for Shells. 10 - 20 for Veils.)
2. Gorge Tunnels. 30 Tres.
3. Bile Bomb. 20 Tres.
4. Leap. 25 Tres.
5. Xenocide. 30 Tres
6. Spores. 20 Tres.
7. Umbra. 30 Tres.
8. Blink. 30 Tres.
9. Vortex. 30 Tres.
10. Stomp. 30 Tres.
Total Investment 460 (All units fully upgraded cost)
Marine Tres spending that directly influences a Pres purchase:
2nd CC: 15 Tres.
Armory - 10 Tres.
1. Research Welder. 10 Tres.
2. Research Shotgun. 20 Tres.
3. Research Mines. 15 Tres.
Upgrade to Advanced Armory - 20 Tres.
4. Research Grenade Launcher. 20 Tres.
5. Research Flamethrower. 25 Tres.
Proto Lab - 40 Tres.
6. Research Jetpacks. 25 Tres.
7. Research Exosuit. 30 Tres.
8. Research Dual Mini. 20 Tres.
These Tres numbers don't really affect a players choice in any case with the exception of Exos.
Arms Lab:
Weapons lvl 1, 2, & 3. - 15, 25, 35 Tres.
Armor lvl 1, 2, & 3. - 15, 25, 35 Tres.
Total investment 400 Tres. (All units fully upgraded)
The major difference between both sides is that the Aliens spend their Pres for a new lifeform, and the commander outfits their lifeform with what they feel fits the situation. Though the initial cost is high, all alien Pres lifeforms will be upgraded for free as the game goes on. Nearly all the alien lifeforms are meant specifically for hit and run attacks, every alien unit has an escape mechanism that can quickly remove them from the battlefield while Marines do not have such a trait or ability that the aliens cannot counter (Besides beacon). Because of this alien higher life forms such as the Lerk or the Fade often pay for themselves far faster than a Marine investment because they spend less time dead. You seldom see a Lerk or Fade die unless they get into a situation that was very bad from the get go. (IE: Blinking into a group of marines with no distractions, clinging to the ceiling to spike a power node behind the enemy's lines.) This being said it's not impossible for them to die by other player skill, it's just much less likely to see a Fade go down than a Marine as A fade can easily solo one Marine, possibly more if they hit the field early.
The Kham doesn't have to research a lifeform for an alien player to acquire a higher life form while the Marine commander must research each item before the Marines even have the chance to use said item, then the commander must upgrade the Marine's weapon level to give the marines the full benefit from their purchase. Each weapon research costs Tres, then a fixed Pres from anyone wishing to use the item researched. Depending on the layout a Marine chooses to have, their Marine can cost anywhere from 5-55 Pres (Not regarding Exos) and though most of their weapons can be recycled Jet packs cannot (Not a bad thing) nor should we assume that every weapon has 100% chance to be recycled, especially after the Gorge buff.
Another important note I'd like to add which may come up later is that both commanders can spend Tres to drop their respective players lifeforms or weapons which they could purchase with their own Pres, the costs are all the same, but there is one key difference between the two sides. While the Kharaa can give a player an Onos egg, the 75 Pres alien tech equivalent to the TSF Dual Minigun Exo, the Marines cannot drop a Dual Exo for their players, this may seem like a small thing, but it means that if the Marine team's Pres economy gets shut down there is no chance of them coming back with the strength that they had, or could have had before that point.
The Kham is free to focus all their attention and Tres on expansion and upgrades with little worry about Marines sneaking behind their lines. (Something that is even less likely if the Kham sinks 3-9 res on drifters in most maps.) While the Marine commander is encouraged to focus on expansion, keep a keen defensive eye out, and in many situations spend valuable Tres on med packs, ammo drops, and eventually Nano Shield. All of which can be forced by lone wolfs on the Kharaa side especially mid to late game. (This being said, the commander is not necessarily forced to spend their res to aid their team, it's simply the smart thing to do if you wish to continue playing and eventually win/lose.)
I could continue comparing them but I want to leave room for others to comment, add, discuss. Not everything you read on this post should be considered 100% fact as I may have made an error or many. However, I wanted to post up some numbers and give a general comparison of the key parts that both sides share and do not.
Finally, after looking over this, what would you suggest that could change one or both sides economy for a more balanced match while keeping things in your opinion, fun?
_____________
As a few starter ideas:
What if the way both teams used their Pres and Tres were truly asymmetrical? Currently they are very similar, which I believe was intended to allow the developers to balance both sides more easily as they had relatively mirrored economies, which makes calculating what res will be spent and where simpler than having two entirely different systems of currency/spending. What if we kept the Marine economy the same and swapped the Alien economy of NS2 with one more similar to NS1, where players had to get their units dropped from the Kham? As we know it now, it's already a cushy job and giving the Kham more ways to directly affect what appears on the field would lead to a more structured strategy from the alien side than the current which in pubs often means on the fly attacks, many of which the Kham can have no idea are happening if they're focused elsewhere, simply because their players had the Pres, spent it, and did it? (Yes I understand the same could be said about Marines, this is just an example!)
What if we made a smaller compromise that would prevent the dreaded alien Lifeform Explosion? Say we gave players on the Alien side a max of 25-30 Pres, limiting their evolutions to Skulks, Gorges, or Lerks. Let higher life forms be dropped by the Kham spending T-res.
What if Marines had the ability to place power nodes in sockets and purchase Extractors and Sentry nests to be placed by Marines at their own Pres costs and instead of purchasing weapons had to have them dropped by the commander at their armories? (Personally I think Marines already have quite a lot to whittle down their Pres, but once again just a general idea.)
Discuss!