Making AA the only one to heal armor isnt a bad Idea, but if you wanna just take it away outright you have to be fair... Crags and hives should lose the ability to heal alien armor, and only gorges can heal spray it back, or crags can only heal health and armor and gorges and hives cant. because marines right now only have 2 ways to get armor back while aliens have 3.
Life isn't fair. Natural Selection is a struggle for the survival of the fittest. Which will win? The race that builds superior tools due to technology, or the race that has superior physical traits due to genetic alteration?
Well life isnt fair but this isnt life its a game, about balance. most people hear are complaining about fight full strength marines, Well I hate fighting an onos that always has life and can get it alll back at a forward base and on the move and at a hive.
are you suggesting that welding buildings is a boring mechanic and needs to go away in favor of self-regenerating buildings?
Welding buildings is a boring mechanic. But it needs to stay, because (as I mentioned here and here) the man-seconds spent welding buildings are a valuable resource and thus an important element of the strategic gameplay.
but they are artificially resource-intensive, just as interpersonal welding would be.
Metal ManJoin Date: 2011-11-13Member: 132717Members
BAH! The difference is, in NS1 marines needed full armor to combat focus among other things. Now it is impossible for skulks and fades to kill late game marines because it is so easy for them to have full armor. Add focus and/or remove armor healing from non-advanced armories. Both would be the best choice imo.
the problem with armory and armor is merely small problem within much larger issue.
Much of the game "features" which are being forced to stay no matter created problems like these.
Developers and many players who already accepted these changes as "features" of the game, fighting losing battle since the bigger issues will still exist end of the day.
The game already caters to the casual players, with much of its "features" completely watered-down for easy playing, your idea is free welders?
armory should not heal armor, its that simple. You want be team player? get a welder. how much more you want things handed to you?
some of you should watch
while it may be an old video, the sad part many of the core features which are still biggest problem with this game still exist.
the reason why this video matters? the problem we're debating about is just small problem of the bigger mess.
end of the day the current gameplay mechanics adds to much restrictions to players, to top it with complicated unenjoyable bordem of what players being forced to do.
Fix the broken core features of the game, and the smaller issues will be less of hassle.
the problem with armory and armor is merely small problem within much larger issue.
Much of the game "features" which are being forced to stay no matter created problems like these.
Developers and many players who already accepted these changes as "features" of the game, fighting losing battle since the bigger issues will still exist end of the day.
The game already caters to the casual players, with much of its "features" completely watered-down for easy playing, your idea is free welders?
armory should not heal armor, its that simple. You want be team player? get a welder. how much more you want things handed to you?
some of you should watch
while it may be an old video, the sad part many of the core features which are still biggest problem with this game still exist.
the reason why this video matters? the problem we're debating about is just small problem of the bigger mess.
end of the day the current gameplay mechanics adds to much restrictions to players, to top it with complicated unenjoyable bordem of what players being forced to do.
Fix the broken core features of the game, and the smaller issues will be less of hassle.
I watched 2:30 of that video before having to turn it off. Aside from it being old, in all that time the commentator managed to make one point (poorly) and it isn't even a strong argument. Whoever posted that video needs to make their own game and stop whinging publicly about features they don't like personally (while the game is also in beta!).
I simply don't agree that this game has major design flaws. Yes, it can be improved, and it's exciting to see what uwe is working on.
one thing you forgot about this discussion is that there are people out there who love to play support roles. When i play pub games (balance mod or vanilla ns2) im all the time surprised how many people are using welders, and you see in general a lot of gorges who arguably lose quite some combat effectiveness. i dont have any statistics here now, but when in your team are about 20% players who like support roles, then that armory change wont do much to gameplay, and so far this theory got confirmed by the games i was playing. im saying theory since i dont have any facts on this, probably better to call it a feeling.
If that is the case, why make the change?
If players are happy to weld as is, and you have a pleasant number of people who enjoy it, and you're perfectly free to pursue a combat focused or support focused role in the team, depending on your preference, and the change is not anticipated to have any overall effect on gameplay, why does the change need to occur?
It would seem the only thing it would achieve if that were to be the case, is to annoy people who just want their armor back with the minimum of hassle.
People who weld are appreciated, they are not generally necessary to succeed but they are helpful in doing so, a person who welds and fights is better than one who just fights, usually, and there's a lot of factors to consider about when you should be welding and when you should not. I don't see why the game needs to be forcibly shoved into a state where everyone gets out welders after every piddly encounter and shoves blue sparks into each other for ten seconds. People don't do that now because it's a pain in the arse, so either they won't do it with the welding change or they will have to do it and not enjoy it.
are you suggesting that welding buildings is a boring mechanic and needs to go away in favor of self-regenerating buildings?
Welding buildings is a boring mechanic. But it needs to stay, because (as I mentioned here and here) the man-seconds spent welding buildings are a valuable resource and thus an important element of the strategic gameplay.
but they are artificially resource-intensive, just as interpersonal welding would be.
Welding buildings is something you don't have to do constantly and is an understandable compromise. Buildings can't really be allowed to regenerate because it doesn't fit the aesthetics of the game, and well, it'd probably be a bit overpowered if it was many of the things that actually get attacked, like extractors and power nodes, because aliens do sometimes need to wear those things down, and you'd have problems where bases would regenerate too slow or too fast, so having the ability for marines to pay money to fix buildings works, even if it is a little dull.
But it's a bit different from welding people, welding people is something you would have to do constantly, after every fight, because why not? It's not like there's a better way to do it. You would also probably end up doing it for five seconds or so, but adding another five seconds just to start and finish welding if you including travel time, weapon switching, and the like. With base welding you get out your welder, fix stuff for 30s to a minute, and you're done. You spend most of your time performing a very productive if a little dull task, putting lots of HP back into important structures you get a lot of use out of. With players you let them take an extra bite. Woop de do, is it really worth your time? When there's a much better way to do it?
That's why building welding and player welding are different, one's a very useful necessity that could do with being perhaps a bit more interesting, the other is something that has an existing, much better mechanical replacement to cover most instances where it'd be needed, and rarely manages to have the up-sides of building welding.
This would accomplish what I believe is the intention behind removing armory repair, namely to encourage more use of welders and to reduce the amount of retreating to armories (and incidentally reduce the effectiveness of having a nearby armory). But it would also be a less drastic change.
Getting welders is already a good idea (in many cases, but not all) and is underutilized by inexperienced players. This would make it even more of a good idea, and also make it more obviously a good idea, so that even new players will more rapidly pick up on the concept of "Hey, maybe I should get a welder". But it would still be a situational call, not the near-certain necessity it would be without armory repair.
Also, by increasing the welder armor-repair speed, you're requiring less busy-work from marine players. It's still more busy-work than there is at present (because there would be more welding overall), but the trade-off of less retreating to armories should compensate for that - I think the only thing more annoying than doing nothing while welding is running back to an armory two rooms away.
I'd also recommend allowing self-weld (at greatly reduced speeds and/or requiring you to look down to impair your vision) as a further incentive to buy welders, but I think just doing the two things I listed above would be a good change all by themselves.
This would accomplish what I believe is the intention behind removing armory repair, namely to encourage more use of welders and to reduce the amount of retreating to armories (and incidentally reduce the effectiveness of having a nearby armory). But it would also be a less drastic change.
Getting welders is already a good idea (in many cases, but not all) and is underutilized by inexperienced players. This would make it even more of a good idea, and also make it more obviously a good idea, so that even new players will more rapidly pick up on the concept of "Hey, maybe I should get a welder". But it would still be a situational call, not the near-certain necessity it would be without armory repair.
Also, by increasing the welder armor-repair speed, you're requiring less busy-work from marine players. It's still more busy-work than there is at present (because there would be more welding overall), but the trade-off of less retreating to armories should compensate for that - I think the only thing more annoying than doing nothing while welding is running back to an armory two rooms away.
I'd also recommend allowing self-weld (at greatly reduced speeds and/or requiring you to look down to impair your vision) as a further incentive to buy welders, but I think just doing the two things I listed above would be a good change all by themselves.
I think that'd be a good compromise. It'd at least remove those annoying situations in NS1:
*Finish killing off 4 skulks 5m outside base*
Weld me! Someone weld me! You! You running to the second base, weld me you Onos-frakker... damn it, he's out of the base. Oh! You, random marine, who just spawned, I dropped my welder and am Jumping up and down. Weld me! Oh, he phased away... screw it, I'll just ram my crotch into a skulk and respawn.
===
The memories of "kill myself so I'll get my armor back" ring a bell.
Refusing to buy a welder does weaken the team, but there's still a choice. Refusing to buy one also benefits the team by saving res, which may be needed to buy a shotgun or mines, which will benefit the team.
You would be right, *IF* this change was already in place and I was arguing to have it removed.
Right now people are spending their p-res on upgrades. I'm not understating it when I say there are many people who have never bought a welder in the entire time they have played NS2. They're not going to start buying welders, and the team will suffer for it. Don't underestimate the psychological impact that this change will have. A selfish person won't start buying welders when they know it will reduce the number of upgrades they can buy. Why should they? What fun is it running around with a welder when they can buy a shottie? Who will suffer? The marine team.
If they're free, then everyone gets welders, and people who want to weld will weld and people who don't want to weld will get a welder anyway "just in case". If they cost, then only people who REALLY DO want to weld will get them, and people will have to think twice about whether or not they should buy one. Do we have enough on the team already? Am I better off getting a welder or saving up for a shotgun? Is the team better off?
If you want to go this way then other costs have to come down. If you want to force marines to spend resources on welders - resources that they never used to spend before - then let's drop shotties down to 15 res. Flamers and GLs can drop by 5 res too. Fair is fair.
NOW you have balance. A marine is still spending the same amount of res on their upgrades, even with the additional requirement to buy welders.
This is what I've been trying to impress upon people - you are ADDING a cost to marines that was not there before. This is a new cost, and it will drain resources from marines when it did not do so before. If marines have fewer p-res, then they will have fewer weapon upgrades. It's simple math. If they have fewer upgrades then they are at a disadvantage. Plain and simple.
Bottom line, do marines HAVE to buy welders now? No. They can play the entire game without them. With this change marines will HAVE to buy welders to stay competitive. Otherwise they go into a battle at a significant disadvantage. An armor 3 marine that would have taken 4 bites to kill goes down in 2 without armor. That's a HUGE impact. All for the lack or a welder because a person was unwilling or unable to afford it.
We can't have it both ways. We can't say that people have to pay for welders and then say that we're not going to give you any more res to do it. If you do that you weaken the marines. It's not maybe weaken, it's weaken - straight by the numbers.
Did people not see the impact tweaking one small aspect of the skulk had on the game? Seriously, the change wasn't as huge as people made it out to be, and Charlie even said that. Yet the impact was significant. The game went from 60/40 balance to 50/50 balance. This is why small changes can have huge impacts. (Charlie has said that too.)
Do people really think "It's only 5 res, what will it hurt?" Yes it will hurt. The economy is balanced on the thin edge of a knife, and tinkering with it thinking that it will have no impact on gameplay is... Let me be polite and call it 'unwise'.
@savant, if your point is that removing armory repair without reducing welder cost will shift the balance against marines, I don't think anyone will disagree with you. But that balance shift can almost certainly be offset by some other change unrelated to welders and armories and armor. All the other changes being mooted by Sewlek's mod will also undoubtedly shift the balance too, and it's not necessarily clear which way or to what extent without actual gameplay experience to show us.
But the worthiness of a change can be evaluated separately from its affect on balance. Does it make for more interesting, fun, challenging, and rewarding gameplay? If so, then it's worth considering, and if it also happens to shift the balance then something else can be done as well to compensate and shift the balance back.
I'm not convinced that removing armory repair makes for better gameplay. I am convinced that IF we remove armory repair, then having welders cost something will make for better gameplay than having them be free. If marines then need a compensating buff someplace else to go with it, well, that's okay too.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
i know it wont convince probably anyone of you who are against the armory change (yes i read all posts) but i tweaked the MAC AI a bit to allow smart follow orders (will follow and prioritize a primary target and weld/construct secondary targets in range). i hope that this will make "field macs" more likely, though i dont want to fixate too much on the MAC. i would appreciate it if you try out the changes and write feedback based on the actual gameplay (negative and positive are both welcome!). thanks for all your time writing so much!
@savant, if your point is that removing armory repair without reducing welder cost will shift the balance against marines, I don't think anyone will disagree with you. But that balance shift can almost certainly be offset by some other change unrelated to welders and armories and armor. ... But the worthiness of a change can be evaluated separately from its affect on balance. Does it make for more interesting, fun, challenging, and rewarding gameplay? If so, then it's worth considering
Hey, I've said it many times, I'm totally in favour of the *machanic* of taking armor repair off the armory and having marines do it with welders. I'm totally on board with that. My issue is not the mechanic of that aspect of gameplay, but the *economic* impact, and the impact on 'fun'.
From a 'fun' standpoint, if marines are spending res on welders they aren't spending it on jetpacks, shotties etc. We can say what we want, but if we are honest we admit this is less fun to many people. Playing with a jetpack = fun. Not playing with a jetpack and instead buying a couple welders? Not fun.
From an economic standpoint, if marines are spending res on welders then they aren't spending it on weapons that improve their damage and increase marine team effectiveness. Again, we can say what we want, but the resources that are lost will limit marine effectiveness. If all marine costs were dropped by 5 res, then this could balance out. If shotguns are 15 res then paying for a 5 res welder is far less of an impact. I don't see that happening though.
Let me use a simple example. I pulled this NSL game off NS2stats five minutes ago. The marine team there, in total, died ~60 times. Now, let's say they need to buy welders. If they only buy 20 welders the entire game, that's 100 resources. If they are really good and recycle the welders so they only need 10, that is 50 resources. That's a railgun EXO right there. Will not having that EXO make a difference? Of course it will. That game was a 6v6. I picked a random 8v8 pub game here, and the marines died 100 times. How many welders will they buy and lose in that game? It will be more than a few, we both know that. They could spend over 100 res easy on welders.
Like I said, it's not the mechanic that I have a problem with. Marines welding marines? No problem.
It's the *price* of that mechanic that worries me. The res has to come from somewhere, and if they are spending it on welders then they are not spending it on other weapons. And if they aren't spending it on other weapons then that is less fun and makes for a weaker marine team.
Part of the changes includes slowing both the spawn times of each side, so less deaths overall. Other changes include the removal of no pres when dead, which helps give players more pres. Marine pRes is by no means in a bad place currently, it is extremely easy to keep weapons on your team, especially when you consider a 20 pRes shotgun can 2 shot a 50 pRes lifeform on aliens. The marines currently NEED a valid sink for their pres, to keep both shotgun spam down and to help reduce mine spam. Welders being more important will help with that a little, but no where near the massive issue you are trying to make it sound like. Also consider that in larger games that pRes scales with player counts, so the costs are less impacting there. In that 6v6 you have no clue how many welders were bought and lost, many teams I know currently already use atleast a welder or 2 in most pushes, which means the costs are already reflected there in their pRes.
Also, people like welding, and like playing support. Its not for everyone no doubt, but many of the people that like to go gorge and muck around healing players and buildings, are the people that will be buying welders and keeping bases healed.
You dont know what the potential resource impacts are, and it is no where near the massive issue you are trying to make it out to be. While it will reduce marine pRes amounts, that currently is a needed change, and I imagine that the removal of no pres when dead will offset it largely.
I dont see the need the keep posting the same argument over and over, if it becomes a problem during testing it will be addressed, otherwise its such a miniscule problem that its hardly worth mentioning.
I would be interested to see if this kind of a change promoted marines to more actively /kill themselves in console.
Its affect on mobility cannot be understated. Perhaps players would also choose to kill themselves during times of low offence in order to be more effective when an attack does come.
In fact, this brought to my attention the single reason why this change worries me so much. Its the idea that certain misguided or inexperienced marines will actively spend resources in order to keep marines alive who don't need to be kept alive.
Its the equivalent of a marine commander dropping medpacks to a marine being attacked by 5 skulks who is busy trying to knife a cyst. Its hopeless, and represents a pointless res investment.
I am perfectly willing to admit that there are certainly times when marines do need to be kept alive, and that it is worth expending resources to do so (many appropriate medpack drops are examples of this), but not every marine needs to be saved, and not every marine is worth saving (you don't drop medpacks for every marine that takes damage).
The problem is that it is incredibly difficult to know who is worth saving, and who isn't. Even as commander, when you have perfect knowledge of your strategy, and an overview of the battlefield, its hard to know. Having to know in advance whether someone may be worth saving, and whether or not you can even save them would be much more difficult.
Having these complexities can be a good thing, because with experience you become better at knowing what you should do, and therefore you become better at the game. But in this scenario, it isn't scaffolding upon which you build to become better, its an active pitfall into which players will fall and be punished for.
Making AA the only one to heal armor isnt a bad Idea, but if you wanna just take it away outright you have to be fair... Crags and hives should lose the ability to heal alien armor, and only gorges can heal spray it back, or crags can only heal health and armor and gorges and hives cant. because marines right now only have 2 ways to get armor back while aliens have 3.
This is a terrible argument. Within the asymmetric gameplay the aliens are more independent and should have more ways to heal while marines should rely on each other. Again, we've done this in NS1 and it worked VERY well. The logic you used to apply effects from one team to another is much too simple in this type of game. There should be distinct difference.
On top of that marines currently have 3 (armory, welder, mac) and aliens also have 3 (hive, crag, gorge). For this type of game when you do one thing to one side you don't HAVE to do the same for the other. This isn't counter strike or algebra.
I would be interested to see if this kind of a change promoted marines to more actively /kill themselves in console.
i didnt encounter this so far, but ~30 games is not enough to say how people would play in general. ns1 was another game, but it indicates that people wont type kill on low armor since even when theoretically less effective with not full armor, it still better to stay alive and be able to shoot something.
I would be interested to see if this kind of a change promoted marines to more actively /kill themselves in console.
Its affect on mobility cannot be understated. Perhaps players would also choose to kill themselves during times of low offence in order to be more effective when an attack does come.
In fact, this brought to my attention the single reason why this change worries me so much. Its the idea that certain misguided or inexperienced marines will actively spend resources in order to keep marines alive who don't need to be kept alive.
Its the equivalent of a marine commander dropping medpacks to a marine being attacked by 5 skulks who is busy trying to knife a cyst. Its hopeless, and represents a pointless res investment.
I am perfectly willing to admit that there are certainly times when marines do need to be kept alive, and that it is worth expending resources to do so (many appropriate medpack drops are examples of this), but not every marine needs to be saved, and not every marine is worth saving (you don't drop medpacks for every marine that takes damage).
The problem is that it is incredibly difficult to know who is worth saving, and who isn't. Even as commander, when you have perfect knowledge of your strategy, and an overview of the battlefield, its hard to know. Having to know in advance whether someone may be worth saving, and whether or not you can even save them would be much more difficult.
Having these complexities can be a good thing, because with experience you become better at knowing what you should do, and therefore you become better at the game. But in this scenario, it isn't scaffolding upon which you build to become better, its an active pitfall into which players will fall and be punished for.
so you ask your commander for a mac.
how would you repair armour if the commander didn't drop an armory? it's commander prerogotive how best he keeps his marines alive.
I would be interested to see if this kind of a change promoted marines to more actively /kill themselves in console.
i didnt encounter this so far, but ~30 games is not enough to say how people would play in general. ns1 was another game, but it indicates that people wont type kill on low armor since even when theoretically less effective with not full armor, it still better to stay alive and be able to shoot something.
You have more faith in the average player than I, because I'm pretty damn sure that that is not the reason most people won't type kill in the console.
I think it was something to do with them being to busy pressing tab to hit the ~ key.
You have more faith in the average player than I, because I'm pretty damn sure that that is not the reason most people won't type kill in the console.
I think it was something to do with them being to busy pressing tab to hit the ~ key.
If MACs became more accessible to compensate I would be more than happy. Not to weld marines mind you, but to build with them. In their current state, MACs simply are not feasible in the first 10 minutes of a fair game.
"If marines can't do <x>, why should aliens get to do <x>?"
I'm surprised you don't see why this logic doesn't hold up and you should instead focus on the dumbness of the statement "well if armories don't heal armor why don't we remove all healing from aliens except gorges"
I would be interested to see if this kind of a change promoted marines to more actively /kill themselves in console.
In NS1 it was commonplace for people to kill themselves (or 'get themselves killed' by going on a suicide run) when parasited rather than be a liability and give their squad's location away. Did I do it? Occasionally. I'd by lying if I said I didn't.
As for your question, think about it... You happen to be at marine start, and you only have 100 health. There is no one else in base and you see from hitting tab no one in the spawn queue. Are you going to run out with 100 health, or suicide to get your armor back up? I know what I'm doing... An extra death on my stats means nothing to me. Buying a welder and running out of base with the hopes to stay alive long enough to reach a team-mate and get welded seems pretty foolish.
Well I tried the mod today, and I can confirm that my subjective, biased opinion was not proved wrong.
No-body voiced any opinion against the armour change, and everyone seemed very happy to weld up in a lovey dovey marines-all-mucking-in-together attitude.
What we need is for some of the nay-sayers to get in there, play how they would normally play and do the things they describe (like /kill - really, you'd do this?!), to see how it plays out.
So far, no problems in the couple of hours I've spent playing. I found it very enjoyable (the whole mod), and the armoury not repairing armour was not an issue, even with our team turtling on 1 res node (because of recycling).
I am very interested to see if there really is ANY basis for the fears being put forward in this thread, and would very gladly play the mod again with as many of you as possible so we can thoroughly test this.
I would be interested to see if this kind of a change promoted marines to more actively /kill themselves in console.
In NS1 it was commonplace for people to kill themselves (or 'get themselves killed' by going on a suicide run) when parasited rather than be a liability and give their squad's location away. Did I do it? Occasionally. I'd by lying if I said I didn't.
As for your question, think about it... You happen to be at marine start, and you only have 100 health. There is no one else in base and you see from hitting tab no one in the spawn queue. Are you going to run out with 100 health, or suicide to get your armor back up? I know what I'm doing... An extra death on my stats means nothing to me. Buying a welder and running out of base with the hopes to stay alive long enough to reach a team-mate and get welded seems pretty foolish.
Even now I frequently run into hives with a para and no armor rather than go get armor (unless I'm very close) because doing damage right now is usually a better choice than holding back. You're basically suggesting that people will kill themselves for 1 or 2 extra hits of health. In that case I suppose I'd say that yes, some players will play badly and there's nothing you can do to stop that.
In NS1 getting yourself killed is different than suicide. Not only are you not giving away your allies position, but you could frequently mislead the opponents or actively pressure them. That's not suicide even if it's a suicide mission. You continue to provide value to the team. It in fact encouraged players to be more aggressive since it emphasized your expendable nature.
Comments
Well life isnt fair but this isnt life its a game, about balance. most people hear are complaining about fight full strength marines, Well I hate fighting an onos that always has life and can get it alll back at a forward base and on the move and at a hive.
but they are artificially resource-intensive, just as interpersonal welding would be.
Much of the game "features" which are being forced to stay no matter created problems like these.
Developers and many players who already accepted these changes as "features" of the game, fighting losing battle since the bigger issues will still exist end of the day.
The game already caters to the casual players, with much of its "features" completely watered-down for easy playing, your idea is free welders?
armory should not heal armor, its that simple. You want be team player? get a welder. how much more you want things handed to you?
some of you should watch
while it may be an old video, the sad part many of the core features which are still biggest problem with this game still exist.
the reason why this video matters? the problem we're debating about is just small problem of the bigger mess.
end of the day the current gameplay mechanics adds to much restrictions to players, to top it with complicated unenjoyable bordem of what players being forced to do.
Fix the broken core features of the game, and the smaller issues will be less of hassle.
I watched 2:30 of that video before having to turn it off. Aside from it being old, in all that time the commentator managed to make one point (poorly) and it isn't even a strong argument. Whoever posted that video needs to make their own game and stop whinging publicly about features they don't like personally (while the game is also in beta!).
I simply don't agree that this game has major design flaws. Yes, it can be improved, and it's exciting to see what uwe is working on.
If that is the case, why make the change?
If players are happy to weld as is, and you have a pleasant number of people who enjoy it, and you're perfectly free to pursue a combat focused or support focused role in the team, depending on your preference, and the change is not anticipated to have any overall effect on gameplay, why does the change need to occur?
It would seem the only thing it would achieve if that were to be the case, is to annoy people who just want their armor back with the minimum of hassle.
People who weld are appreciated, they are not generally necessary to succeed but they are helpful in doing so, a person who welds and fights is better than one who just fights, usually, and there's a lot of factors to consider about when you should be welding and when you should not. I don't see why the game needs to be forcibly shoved into a state where everyone gets out welders after every piddly encounter and shoves blue sparks into each other for ten seconds. People don't do that now because it's a pain in the arse, so either they won't do it with the welding change or they will have to do it and not enjoy it.
Welding buildings is something you don't have to do constantly and is an understandable compromise. Buildings can't really be allowed to regenerate because it doesn't fit the aesthetics of the game, and well, it'd probably be a bit overpowered if it was many of the things that actually get attacked, like extractors and power nodes, because aliens do sometimes need to wear those things down, and you'd have problems where bases would regenerate too slow or too fast, so having the ability for marines to pay money to fix buildings works, even if it is a little dull.
But it's a bit different from welding people, welding people is something you would have to do constantly, after every fight, because why not? It's not like there's a better way to do it. You would also probably end up doing it for five seconds or so, but adding another five seconds just to start and finish welding if you including travel time, weapon switching, and the like. With base welding you get out your welder, fix stuff for 30s to a minute, and you're done. You spend most of your time performing a very productive if a little dull task, putting lots of HP back into important structures you get a lot of use out of. With players you let them take an extra bite. Woop de do, is it really worth your time? When there's a much better way to do it?
That's why building welding and player welding are different, one's a very useful necessity that could do with being perhaps a bit more interesting, the other is something that has an existing, much better mechanical replacement to cover most instances where it'd be needed, and rarely manages to have the up-sides of building welding.
- Increase the welder armor-repair speed.
- Reduce the armory armor-repair speed.
- Leave everything else as it is.
This would accomplish what I believe is the intention behind removing armory repair, namely to encourage more use of welders and to reduce the amount of retreating to armories (and incidentally reduce the effectiveness of having a nearby armory). But it would also be a less drastic change.Getting welders is already a good idea (in many cases, but not all) and is underutilized by inexperienced players. This would make it even more of a good idea, and also make it more obviously a good idea, so that even new players will more rapidly pick up on the concept of "Hey, maybe I should get a welder". But it would still be a situational call, not the near-certain necessity it would be without armory repair.
Also, by increasing the welder armor-repair speed, you're requiring less busy-work from marine players. It's still more busy-work than there is at present (because there would be more welding overall), but the trade-off of less retreating to armories should compensate for that - I think the only thing more annoying than doing nothing while welding is running back to an armory two rooms away.
I'd also recommend allowing self-weld (at greatly reduced speeds and/or requiring you to look down to impair your vision) as a further incentive to buy welders, but I think just doing the two things I listed above would be a good change all by themselves.
I think that'd be a good compromise. It'd at least remove those annoying situations in NS1:
*Finish killing off 4 skulks 5m outside base*
Weld me! Someone weld me! You! You running to the second base, weld me you Onos-frakker... damn it, he's out of the base. Oh! You, random marine, who just spawned, I dropped my welder and am Jumping up and down. Weld me! Oh, he phased away... screw it, I'll just ram my crotch into a skulk and respawn.
===
The memories of "kill myself so I'll get my armor back" ring a bell.
Right now people are spending their p-res on upgrades. I'm not understating it when I say there are many people who have never bought a welder in the entire time they have played NS2. They're not going to start buying welders, and the team will suffer for it. Don't underestimate the psychological impact that this change will have. A selfish person won't start buying welders when they know it will reduce the number of upgrades they can buy. Why should they? What fun is it running around with a welder when they can buy a shottie? Who will suffer? The marine team.
If you want to go this way then other costs have to come down. If you want to force marines to spend resources on welders - resources that they never used to spend before - then let's drop shotties down to 15 res. Flamers and GLs can drop by 5 res too. Fair is fair.
NOW you have balance. A marine is still spending the same amount of res on their upgrades, even with the additional requirement to buy welders.
This is what I've been trying to impress upon people - you are ADDING a cost to marines that was not there before. This is a new cost, and it will drain resources from marines when it did not do so before. If marines have fewer p-res, then they will have fewer weapon upgrades. It's simple math. If they have fewer upgrades then they are at a disadvantage. Plain and simple.
Bottom line, do marines HAVE to buy welders now? No. They can play the entire game without them. With this change marines will HAVE to buy welders to stay competitive. Otherwise they go into a battle at a significant disadvantage. An armor 3 marine that would have taken 4 bites to kill goes down in 2 without armor. That's a HUGE impact. All for the lack or a welder because a person was unwilling or unable to afford it.
We can't have it both ways. We can't say that people have to pay for welders and then say that we're not going to give you any more res to do it. If you do that you weaken the marines. It's not maybe weaken, it's weaken - straight by the numbers.
Did people not see the impact tweaking one small aspect of the skulk had on the game? Seriously, the change wasn't as huge as people made it out to be, and Charlie even said that. Yet the impact was significant. The game went from 60/40 balance to 50/50 balance. This is why small changes can have huge impacts. (Charlie has said that too.)
Do people really think "It's only 5 res, what will it hurt?" Yes it will hurt. The economy is balanced on the thin edge of a knife, and tinkering with it thinking that it will have no impact on gameplay is... Let me be polite and call it 'unwise'.
But the worthiness of a change can be evaluated separately from its affect on balance. Does it make for more interesting, fun, challenging, and rewarding gameplay? If so, then it's worth considering, and if it also happens to shift the balance then something else can be done as well to compensate and shift the balance back.
I'm not convinced that removing armory repair makes for better gameplay. I am convinced that IF we remove armory repair, then having welders cost something will make for better gameplay than having them be free. If marines then need a compensating buff someplace else to go with it, well, that's okay too.
From a 'fun' standpoint, if marines are spending res on welders they aren't spending it on jetpacks, shotties etc. We can say what we want, but if we are honest we admit this is less fun to many people. Playing with a jetpack = fun. Not playing with a jetpack and instead buying a couple welders? Not fun.
From an economic standpoint, if marines are spending res on welders then they aren't spending it on weapons that improve their damage and increase marine team effectiveness. Again, we can say what we want, but the resources that are lost will limit marine effectiveness. If all marine costs were dropped by 5 res, then this could balance out. If shotguns are 15 res then paying for a 5 res welder is far less of an impact. I don't see that happening though.
Let me use a simple example. I pulled this NSL game off NS2stats five minutes ago. The marine team there, in total, died ~60 times. Now, let's say they need to buy welders. If they only buy 20 welders the entire game, that's 100 resources. If they are really good and recycle the welders so they only need 10, that is 50 resources. That's a railgun EXO right there. Will not having that EXO make a difference? Of course it will. That game was a 6v6. I picked a random 8v8 pub game here, and the marines died 100 times. How many welders will they buy and lose in that game? It will be more than a few, we both know that. They could spend over 100 res easy on welders.
Like I said, it's not the mechanic that I have a problem with. Marines welding marines? No problem.
It's the *price* of that mechanic that worries me. The res has to come from somewhere, and if they are spending it on welders then they are not spending it on other weapons. And if they aren't spending it on other weapons then that is less fun and makes for a weaker marine team.
Also a note that testing may be a bit biased.
I mean, folk against it will test less right?
Also, people like welding, and like playing support. Its not for everyone no doubt, but many of the people that like to go gorge and muck around healing players and buildings, are the people that will be buying welders and keeping bases healed.
You dont know what the potential resource impacts are, and it is no where near the massive issue you are trying to make it out to be. While it will reduce marine pRes amounts, that currently is a needed change, and I imagine that the removal of no pres when dead will offset it largely.
I dont see the need the keep posting the same argument over and over, if it becomes a problem during testing it will be addressed, otherwise its such a miniscule problem that its hardly worth mentioning.
Its affect on mobility cannot be understated. Perhaps players would also choose to kill themselves during times of low offence in order to be more effective when an attack does come.
In fact, this brought to my attention the single reason why this change worries me so much. Its the idea that certain misguided or inexperienced marines will actively spend resources in order to keep marines alive who don't need to be kept alive.
Its the equivalent of a marine commander dropping medpacks to a marine being attacked by 5 skulks who is busy trying to knife a cyst. Its hopeless, and represents a pointless res investment.
I am perfectly willing to admit that there are certainly times when marines do need to be kept alive, and that it is worth expending resources to do so (many appropriate medpack drops are examples of this), but not every marine needs to be saved, and not every marine is worth saving (you don't drop medpacks for every marine that takes damage).
The problem is that it is incredibly difficult to know who is worth saving, and who isn't. Even as commander, when you have perfect knowledge of your strategy, and an overview of the battlefield, its hard to know. Having to know in advance whether someone may be worth saving, and whether or not you can even save them would be much more difficult.
Having these complexities can be a good thing, because with experience you become better at knowing what you should do, and therefore you become better at the game. But in this scenario, it isn't scaffolding upon which you build to become better, its an active pitfall into which players will fall and be punished for.
This is a terrible argument. Within the asymmetric gameplay the aliens are more independent and should have more ways to heal while marines should rely on each other. Again, we've done this in NS1 and it worked VERY well. The logic you used to apply effects from one team to another is much too simple in this type of game. There should be distinct difference.
On top of that marines currently have 3 (armory, welder, mac) and aliens also have 3 (hive, crag, gorge). For this type of game when you do one thing to one side you don't HAVE to do the same for the other. This isn't counter strike or algebra.
i didnt encounter this so far, but ~30 games is not enough to say how people would play in general. ns1 was another game, but it indicates that people wont type kill on low armor since even when theoretically less effective with not full armor, it still better to stay alive and be able to shoot something.
so you ask your commander for a mac.
how would you repair armour if the commander didn't drop an armory? it's commander prerogotive how best he keeps his marines alive.
You have more faith in the average player than I, because I'm pretty damn sure that that is not the reason most people won't type kill in the console.
I think it was something to do with them being to busy pressing tab to hit the ~ key.
If MACs became more accessible to compensate I would be more than happy. Not to weld marines mind you, but to build with them. In their current state, MACs simply are not feasible in the first 10 minutes of a fair game.
It's the same logic being used.
"If marines can't do <x>, why should aliens get to do <x>?"
I'm surprised you don't see why this logic doesn't hold up and you should instead focus on the dumbness of the statement "well if armories don't heal armor why don't we remove all healing from aliens except gorges"
As for your question, think about it... You happen to be at marine start, and you only have 100 health. There is no one else in base and you see from hitting tab no one in the spawn queue. Are you going to run out with 100 health, or suicide to get your armor back up? I know what I'm doing... An extra death on my stats means nothing to me. Buying a welder and running out of base with the hopes to stay alive long enough to reach a team-mate and get welded seems pretty foolish.
No-body voiced any opinion against the armour change, and everyone seemed very happy to weld up in a lovey dovey marines-all-mucking-in-together attitude.
What we need is for some of the nay-sayers to get in there, play how they would normally play and do the things they describe (like /kill - really, you'd do this?!), to see how it plays out.
So far, no problems in the couple of hours I've spent playing. I found it very enjoyable (the whole mod), and the armoury not repairing armour was not an issue, even with our team turtling on 1 res node (because of recycling).
I am very interested to see if there really is ANY basis for the fears being put forward in this thread, and would very gladly play the mod again with as many of you as possible so we can thoroughly test this.
Roo
Even now I frequently run into hives with a para and no armor rather than go get armor (unless I'm very close) because doing damage right now is usually a better choice than holding back. You're basically suggesting that people will kill themselves for 1 or 2 extra hits of health. In that case I suppose I'd say that yes, some players will play badly and there's nothing you can do to stop that.
In NS1 getting yourself killed is different than suicide. Not only are you not giving away your allies position, but you could frequently mislead the opponents or actively pressure them. That's not suicide even if it's a suicide mission. You continue to provide value to the team. It in fact encouraged players to be more aggressive since it emphasized your expendable nature.