Mid-late game when you want to travel between two different areas of the map quickly. It is especially useful for onos so that they can defend multiple fronts and also in certain areas of maps that are wind-y and inefficient to run around otherwise. It is particularly useful on the new map because it is huge, but it depends on where your hives are.
Simple answer, never. There to expensive to delay the 2nd hive drop. specially in arcing maps where u can have 3 arcs out by 4 min mark.
They're only really usefull mid game where its a struggle and u have res.
What? First you say never, then you say they are useful in mid game. Personally I dont think the tunnels are 100% useful every time. I just use them when the opportunity arises as its hard to say when in each game they are needed. I like to use them in mid/late games to speed travel from hives like on mineshaft going from cave to everywhere else. Right now I dont see tunnels as a big game changer with being 30 res to research and 20 for both ends but thats a balance issue and can be fixed easily if needed.
Gorge tunnels are best used in mid and late game. They offer two distinct advantages of which one you've touched on. First is the defense on two fronts is fantastic for aliens. Second would be the offensive capability of them. Allowing aliens to get behind marine front lines is very powerful.
Also in pub games far too often do I see rampant spending of team resources. Mini bases, whips, and every upgrade are not necessary. That's not to say they are res efficient but they most certainly are not a waste of res, at least if your team uses it.
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From what I've seen, they are particularly useful for ninja hives. For example, if you start at sub or pipe on veil and marines take cargo, your only option is the tech node on the other side of the map. Before gorge tunnels, defending this hive was nearly impossible as there was no way to reinforce it. Now, gorge tunnels provides us the opportunity to protect this hive as its building.
Does gorge tunnel have to be built on infestation?
No, they can be built "anywhere"...when the gorge selects the Structure, it will light up green whenever the spot is suitable to build.
I love gorge tunnels, and found them very usefull when the Aliens have Camo - or even better, Silence.
Especially when the Alien comm lets me decide where to build a tunnel to and from.
1st Entrance isn't a problem, just make sure it's in an awkward spot, and well hidden (even vents are an option!), yet close to a spawn area.
But the 2nd entrance gets my special attention, and with camo or silence, I can penetrate deep into enemy territory...to their main base, just around the corner, for example.
Find an awkward spot again - where no Marine would normally take a step - and especially when I have Silence, I can build and heal the tunnel entrance without them hearing a sound.
Then jump into the tunnel and leave the scene, only to come back with a pack of Aliens :P
With Camo, it's obviously easier to get to that spot, but you just need to be more carefull when healing it up (healspray a couple of times, stop and listen, and continue etc).
Or go invisible and wait untill the entrance has auto-build itself...safest way, but takes a bit longer.
I've had a couple of games where I went about this way, and surprised my Alien team when I urged them to check their maps for a new Gorge tunnel.
Descent has some great spots, which I won't reveal here for now.
Since my original post in this thread, I've commanded as aliens and experimented with gorge tunnels probably a dozen times. Also, as gorge, I've experimented with building them half-a-dozen times.
I just don't understand the value proposition of gorge tunnels.
The benefit for marines to use phase gates far outweighs the benefits aliens get from using gorge tunnels.
Gorge tunnels vs phase gates:
1. Gorge tunnels are more expensive and require team + individual player res. Phase gates are cheaper and only require team res.
2. Travel time for aliens through gorge tunnels is delayed. Phase gate travel time is instant.
3. Placement of gorge tunnels is not controlled by the alien commander, whereas marine commanders can control placement. Commanders clearly have the upper hand in determining where portals should be placed. Marine commanders can build an "organized" network of phase gates to make sure marine movement is maximized. Usually if gorges are cooperative, they're very unorganized, sometimes duplicating travel paths - wasting res, and causing confusion.
4. Enemy units can use gorge tunnels. Enemy units cannot use phase gates.
The one benefit I can think of is that gorge tunnels can be "ninja" placed. However, I still have to play in a game where this has been effective. It's neat in theory, but usually it's from one hive to a ninja location. When this happens the aliens are too busy trying to reach gorge tunnel locations that they "orphan" the other hive(s).
When you think about it, most aliens move much faster (especially when upgraded) than marines do. So the accelerated travel for marines is much more valuable than it is for aliens. So for aliens, you're paying more for much less benefit.
I love the idea, and I love the look&feel, but I just don't find any value. I wish someone could enlighten me. Maybe it just needs some tweaking in the next build.
@ eliotmat
I think you're forgetting one important thing....phase gates have to be powered by a powernode, where as gorgetunnels don't have to be on infestation!
That's a pretty powerfull aspect, imo, and I hope it stays that way, because it balances the differences you listed a bit.
@ eliotmat
I think you're forgetting one important thing....phase gates have to be powered by a powernode, where as gorgetunnels don't have to be on infestation!
That's a pretty powerfull aspect, imo, and I hope it stays that way, because it balances the differences you listed a bit.
And what that also means is that marines can camp that unsupported gorge tunnel and the alien commander can't recycle it.
the aliens dont have to go through one at a time, and its one hop, not phase... phase... phase... phase.. yay i finally got there!
well sometimes there is a network of gorge tunnels as well, so the time it would take to phase through 3 or 4 gates would be faster than having to travel a tunnel, jump out to enter another tunnel and travel that one as well.
So, can you have a fight in a Gorge tunnel? Sounds like a really dumb question, but better to ask a dumb question and know, rather than not ask and never know.
So, can you have a fight in a Gorge tunnel? Sounds like a really dumb question, but better to ask a dumb question and know, rather than not ask and never know.
Yes. I think there is some detrimental effect to the marines also..... Someone told me their armor decays, but I've never tested it. So, the aliens should have the edge in the fight.
Yes. I think there is some detrimental effect to the marines also..... Someone told me their armor decays, but I've never tested it. So, the aliens should have the edge in the fight.
Yup there is. It's like bilebomb. So exos are in real danger and marines are down to 100/0 pretty quickly. I can't recall exact numbers, but I think of sth. round about 5 dmg to marine armor every tick and increased ammount for exo. I have no clue what about arc and mac. Not even if they're able to enter the tunnel or not.
Basically never imo. I can count on one hand the number of times I've even felt like a gorge tunnel was even slightly useful. I've never seen one that felt like it was more than that. Too expensive when they could potentially be used, not useful by the time they can be afforded.
Basically never imo. I can count on one hand the number of times I've even felt like a gorge tunnel was even slightly useful. I've never seen one that felt like it was more than that. Too expensive when they could potentially be used, not useful by the time they can be afforded.
Gorge tunnels are useful in getting an Onos out of danger quickly. Especially if you're being chased by JP marines. Many marines are hesitant to go into a GT by themselves as they take huge armor damage quickly and have no idea what's waiting for them on the other side. And an Onos heals very quickly by a hive. So an Onos can get out of danger fast, heal and be back in the fight. Also, they get other gorges to the front lines quickly.
Given that many marines just shoot a gorge tunnel, the danger initially considered in linking hives isn't that big of a threat.
In the current Balance Mod:
-Gorge Tunnels only cost 10 tres to be researched at the start of a match.
-Only cost 5 pres for the Gorge to build.
-Build twice as fast.
-Spread infestation around one end if the other end is placed on infestation. The khammander can't cyst from the Gorge Tunnel but he can place structures in it's vicinity. And the Gorge can grow it's Hydras faster on the infestation to guard the tunnel.
Hopefully this gets implemented in the main game soon. It makes them actually quite a lot more useful because the khammander can put a Crag base at the other end of the ninja tunnel and hide it with a Shade.
yesterday we were attacking marine base wih 2 onos gorge and crag base at the tunnel exit, the marines sent a group to our hive and attacked it while we were outside their base. all 10 of them scattered like roaches when 2 onos popped out of the gorge tunnel under their feet, one or two got away
Comments
My thoughts anyway.
Any other thoughts? Does gorge tunnel have to be built on infestation?
As alien comm it's hard for me to justify getting gorge tunnels rather than upgrades or abilities.
They're only really usefull mid game where its a struggle and u have res.
What? First you say never, then you say they are useful in mid game. Personally I dont think the tunnels are 100% useful every time. I just use them when the opportunity arises as its hard to say when in each game they are needed. I like to use them in mid/late games to speed travel from hives like on mineshaft going from cave to everywhere else. Right now I dont see tunnels as a big game changer with being 30 res to research and 20 for both ends but thats a balance issue and can be fixed easily if needed.
Also in pub games far too often do I see rampant spending of team resources. Mini bases, whips, and every upgrade are not necessary. That's not to say they are res efficient but they most certainly are not a waste of res, at least if your team uses it.
I love gorge tunnels, and found them very usefull when the Aliens have Camo - or even better, Silence.
Especially when the Alien comm lets me decide where to build a tunnel to and from.
1st Entrance isn't a problem, just make sure it's in an awkward spot, and well hidden (even vents are an option!), yet close to a spawn area.
But the 2nd entrance gets my special attention, and with camo or silence, I can penetrate deep into enemy territory...to their main base, just around the corner, for example.
Find an awkward spot again - where no Marine would normally take a step - and especially when I have Silence, I can build and heal the tunnel entrance without them hearing a sound.
Then jump into the tunnel and leave the scene, only to come back with a pack of Aliens :P
With Camo, it's obviously easier to get to that spot, but you just need to be more carefull when healing it up (healspray a couple of times, stop and listen, and continue etc).
Or go invisible and wait untill the entrance has auto-build itself...safest way, but takes a bit longer.
I've had a couple of games where I went about this way, and surprised my Alien team when I urged them to check their maps for a new Gorge tunnel.
Descent has some great spots, which I won't reveal here for now.
I just don't understand the value proposition of gorge tunnels.
The benefit for marines to use phase gates far outweighs the benefits aliens get from using gorge tunnels.
Gorge tunnels vs phase gates:
1. Gorge tunnels are more expensive and require team + individual player res. Phase gates are cheaper and only require team res.
2. Travel time for aliens through gorge tunnels is delayed. Phase gate travel time is instant.
3. Placement of gorge tunnels is not controlled by the alien commander, whereas marine commanders can control placement. Commanders clearly have the upper hand in determining where portals should be placed. Marine commanders can build an "organized" network of phase gates to make sure marine movement is maximized. Usually if gorges are cooperative, they're very unorganized, sometimes duplicating travel paths - wasting res, and causing confusion.
4. Enemy units can use gorge tunnels. Enemy units cannot use phase gates.
The one benefit I can think of is that gorge tunnels can be "ninja" placed. However, I still have to play in a game where this has been effective. It's neat in theory, but usually it's from one hive to a ninja location. When this happens the aliens are too busy trying to reach gorge tunnel locations that they "orphan" the other hive(s).
When you think about it, most aliens move much faster (especially when upgraded) than marines do. So the accelerated travel for marines is much more valuable than it is for aliens. So for aliens, you're paying more for much less benefit.
I love the idea, and I love the look&feel, but I just don't find any value. I wish someone could enlighten me. Maybe it just needs some tweaking in the next build.
I think you're forgetting one important thing....phase gates have to be powered by a powernode, where as gorgetunnels don't have to be on infestation!
That's a pretty powerfull aspect, imo, and I hope it stays that way, because it balances the differences you listed a bit.
And what that also means is that marines can camp that unsupported gorge tunnel and the alien commander can't recycle it.
Yes. I think there is some detrimental effect to the marines also..... Someone told me their armor decays, but I've never tested it. So, the aliens should have the edge in the fight.
Yup there is. It's like bilebomb. So exos are in real danger and marines are down to 100/0 pretty quickly. I can't recall exact numbers, but I think of sth. round about 5 dmg to marine armor every tick and increased ammount for exo. I have no clue what about arc and mac. Not even if they're able to enter the tunnel or not.
Gorge tunnels are useful in getting an Onos out of danger quickly. Especially if you're being chased by JP marines. Many marines are hesitant to go into a GT by themselves as they take huge armor damage quickly and have no idea what's waiting for them on the other side. And an Onos heals very quickly by a hive. So an Onos can get out of danger fast, heal and be back in the fight. Also, they get other gorges to the front lines quickly.
Given that many marines just shoot a gorge tunnel, the danger initially considered in linking hives isn't that big of a threat.
-Gorge Tunnels only cost 10 tres to be researched at the start of a match.
-Only cost 5 pres for the Gorge to build.
-Build twice as fast.
-Spread infestation around one end if the other end is placed on infestation. The khammander can't cyst from the Gorge Tunnel but he can place structures in it's vicinity. And the Gorge can grow it's Hydras faster on the infestation to guard the tunnel.
Hopefully this gets implemented in the main game soon. It makes them actually quite a lot more useful because the khammander can put a Crag base at the other end of the ninja tunnel and hide it with a Shade.