That's what a couple of us were thinking, but again 2 seconds while in combat is a long time, if in 2 seconds you can't get the parasite kill, then more than likely he has already received a med pack., and it won't kill him either way.
This is a terrible idea, sure in the comp scene that statement may be true...but not in pubs.
Now a marine solo marine can repair his own armour...previously a lone marine in your base would be easier to kill over time as whilst he may be hetting med packs and ammo his armour would not replenish...thus making him easier to kill with each failed attempt.
If marines not welding and armoury's not healing armour is really an issue...this is most definately not the way to fix the problem as it screws up balance.
Make advanced armoury's repair armour (makes forward armour healing stations not cost effective) if you must...but this is just a silly idea.
Makes me wonder where the balance is.....
The tiny replenishment of his armor will have 0 effect on his lifespan in your base.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I do like the idea of the advanced armory healing armor as a compromise between the current iteration. Something that still has pub marines welding each other in the field during lulls in combat is good. Might be a good thing to test for the next version.
I do like the idea of the advanced armory healing armor as a compromise between the current iteration. Something that still has pub marines welding each other in the field during lulls in combat is good. Might be a good thing to test for the next version.
I disagree with it, nano armor is back for testing but even that I also disagree with
That's what a couple of us were thinking, but again 2 seconds while in combat is a long time, if in 2 seconds you can't get the parasite kill, then more than likely he has already received a med pack., and it won't kill him either way.
This is a terrible idea, sure in the comp scene that statement may be true...but not in pubs.
Now a marine solo marine can repair his own armour...previously a lone marine in your base would be easier to kill over time as whilst he may be hetting med packs and ammo his armour would not replenish...thus making him easier to kill with each failed attempt.
If marines not welding and armoury's not healing armour is really an issue...this is most definately not the way to fix the problem as it screws up balance.
Make advanced armoury's repair armour (makes forward armour healing stations not cost effective) if you must...but this is just a silly idea.
Makes me wonder where the balance is.....
The tiny replenishment of his armor will have 0 effect on his lifespan in your base.
Assuming you actually have eggs spawning or a built hive in said "base", if you only have a skulk arriving every 20-30 seconds that marine wont have anywhere near as much trouble....especially if the comm meds/nano's
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2013
Don't like auto weld, don't like armory hump (AA or otherwise), don't like armor regen.
To me, the BT has just proven how successful armor welding can be. In fact resulting in marines having full armor more often than vanilla outside of armory locations. Why add exceptions to something so simple.
Assuming you actually have eggs spawning or a built hive in said "base", if you only have a skulk arriving every 20-30 seconds that marine wont have anywhere near as much trouble....especially if the comm meds/nano's
If you're running in one skulk at a time... You're doing it wrong
Assuming you actually have eggs spawning or a built hive in said "base", if you only have a skulk arriving every 20-30 seconds that marine wont have anywhere near as much trouble....especially if the comm meds/nano's
If you're running in one skulk at a time... You're doing it wrong
Really? Even in a 6v6 game?
Assuming your trying to push another front at the same time.....you dont always want 2 or more skulks going to take out 1 marine.
You only have 5 in the field...sending 2 means your left with a 3v4 battle on other fronts.
Though if they can self heal up armour, get meds, ammo and nano...you will need to send 2-3 to take out 1 marine...thus leaving you exposed on other fronts and unable to hold ground on other fronts as your outnumbered.
Sorry its just a bad idea, it will simply mean good players will be able to pub stomp even harder..just what this gaming community needs.
It was bad enough that forward armouries offer armour healing...now that lone marine does not even need to find/build an armoury...just passivly regen armour.
Assuming you actually have eggs spawning or a built hive in said "base", if you only have a skulk arriving every 20-30 seconds that marine wont have anywhere near as much trouble....especially if the comm meds/nano's
If you're running in one skulk at a time... You're doing it wrong
Really? Even in a 6v6 game?
Assuming your trying to push another front at the same time.....you dont always want 2 or more skulks going to take out 1 marine.
You only have 5 in the field...sending 2 means your left with a 3v4 battle on other fronts.
Though if they can self heal up armour, get meds, ammo and nano...you will need to send 2-3 to take out 1 marine...thus leaving you exposed on other fronts and unable to hold ground on other fronts as your outnumbered.
Sorry its just a bad idea, it will simply mean good players will be able to pub stomp even harder..just what this gaming community needs.
It was bad enough that forward armouries offer armour healing...now that lone marine does not even need to find/build an armoury...just passivly regen armour.
You're being ridiculous, .5 armor per second is not giving anyone indefinite survivability. That's one extra bite worth of health every 76 seconds. And they spent 5 res on a welder they're not using to get it.
Assuming you actually have eggs spawning or a built hive in said "base", if you only have a skulk arriving every 20-30 seconds that marine wont have anywhere near as much trouble....especially if the comm meds/nano's
If you're running in one skulk at a time... You're doing it wrong
Really? Even in a 6v6 game?
Assuming your trying to push another front at the same time.....you dont always want 2 or more skulks going to take out 1 marine.
You only have 5 in the field...sending 2 means your left with a 3v4 battle on other fronts.
Though if they can self heal up armour, get meds, ammo and nano...you will need to send 2-3 to take out 1 marine...thus leaving you exposed on other fronts and unable to hold ground on other fronts as your outnumbered.
Sorry its just a bad idea, it will simply mean good players will be able to pub stomp even harder..just what this gaming community needs.
It was bad enough that forward armouries offer armour healing...now that lone marine does not even need to find/build an armoury...just passivly regen armour.
You're being ridiculous, .5 armor per second is not giving anyone indefinite survivability. That's one extra bite worth of health every 76 seconds. And they spent 5 res on a welder they're not using to get it.
It's not about regenerating the amount necessary to always take another full bite. It's about regenerating enough to make a difference between 2 and 3 bites after a parasite.
Don't like auto weld, don't like armory hump (AA or otherwise), don't like armor regen.
To me, the BT has just proven how successful armor welding can be. In fact resulting in marines having full armor more often than vanilla outside of armory locations. Why add exceptions to something so simple.
that reward should be and is independent of the armoury healing armour though. the armoury not healing armour is but a mechanism to get marines to carry welders more and thus have more marineonmarine welder action. if thats the goal though, there are other ways of achieving it that are less controversial and more accessible, while also leaving you to balance the armoury in otherways so that it remains an option on the battlefield. not to mention you dont make marines completely dependent on their teammates, and you dont have the illogicality of the current system.
In science, the more you find yourself 'fixing' and 'hacking' your theory, the more likely it is that there is some elemental error or flaw. i think the same could be said here - the mechanic is getting bloated and 'hacky' in its approach. I think its time to change tack.
you get your armor back if a mac or teammate welds you in vanilla aswell, thats not the point. more and more convoluted mechanics are being tacked on just so that this ns1 inspired change can force its way in. your armour ticks back slowly - but only if u have a welder being the obvious one. it just shows that the fundamental idea isnt sound.
The entire point of removing armoury armour healing is to
1) prevent the silly 1 base turtling you could do lategame with a3 and gl's etc. AA repair just defeats the point.
2) Increase marine pres sinks to combat shotgun proliferation and other tech explosions that are the natural consequence of ns2's tres/pres system.
3) Increase teamwork
Any proposed midway solution that breaks any of these 3 just defeats the entire point. Would rather the BT mod go either all the way, or not at all regarding welding gameplay. We shouldn't need gimmicks like your armour magically repairing if you weld someone else, free welders, or AA repairing armour.
Also, I think BT 'metagame' isn't yet very developed. Early robo is potentially quite powerful for early-mid arc plays due to cheap RT's and mines. Besides phasegate and jp rushing, nothing else really levers the cheap RT's like robo plays. Alot of potential for different viable marine builds such as having that early MAC just sitting on the armoury. And i like that - early robo being an interesting tech decision with nice feeling flexibility and tradeoffs.
And with later game you don't suffer from the same issues with MAC repair due to bilebomb/repair interupt, single MAC repair only, low hp, and MACS being soft targets (1 bite will hit all MACS in range).
If anything, the new system is simpler than the old one. Before it was:
-vet "So you get health and armor back from an armory, or you can get a welder and heal the armor of your teammates"
-newbie "But I can't heal health with a welder?"
-vet "No"
-newbie "So if armories heal both but welders don't heal health, should I ever get a welder?"
-vet "Yes. Well... maybe. It depends. Are you saving for a shotgun? Is there a forward armory? Are welders even researched yet?"
-newbie "..."
Or the new system:
-vet "So you get health from armories and armor from your teammates with a welder."
-newbie "So I should get a welder?"
-vet "Yes."
-newbie "Ok!"
It's really not any better at all, and while it might be slightly easier to explain to a green name within 5 seconds "buy a welder or you're fucked" it really narrows down what your average pub marine is now able to achieve.
Overall you're now completely reliant on a commander dropping med packs and the people left and right of you, something tells me your results may vary. I hardly see this affecting the vocal majority in the thread of Elodea, Scatter, MF, Jekt as they've all been involved in the clan scene and they've already been using welders effectively in pushes for the last 4 months as they're all very well aware of how to play this game at a high level.
If you truly think that eliminating all other ways of replenishing armour is the best way to highlight the use of 'tactical' welders then go ahead, pub marines now by and by large thanks to Archaea are very well used to the pointy end of the dick and having things taken away from them, I'm sure there's lots more interesting stuff in the BT mod I'm somehow unaware of that will balance out this new pres sink and otherwise punishing mechanic for the sake of forcing team work. As much as I want to believe raising the floor and ceiling at the same time will naturally force people to adapt and overcome I see a great many people just fucking off as both sides become more reliant upon a solid commander and more solid team work.
Really hoping the time frame for release at this stage is before the end of the month otherwise I see all this angst as being irrelevant.
I hear what you're saying Xao, but the fact of the matter is that NS2 is a team based game that does rely a good bit on teamwork for success. It may make things more difficult, but I would say that the heavy team focus is one of the shining highlights of the game. However, it is true that it makes it rather inaccessible.
It seems to me that this particular discussion, and many others that have come before, is breaking down into "The game is too complicated, we need to make it easier", "Well inexperienced players just don't know how to play, they should learn", "But nobody works together, we need to make it a more solo experience", "No, that just make the game suck. It's not that hard once you understand." and on and on it goes. And I think this is largely barking up the wrong tree as it focuses on changing the game rather than changing how people are introduced to the game. Removing teamplay elements for the sake of a more accessible solo experience is a vastly unwise decision in my opinion, but so is doing nothing about the brick wall of a learning curve.
Instead, lets focus on making the game as interesting as possible in it's niche, a team strategy shooter, but at the same time come up with new and better ways of introducing people to the necessary complexities. I understand that UWE does not have the resources to commit to an extensive tutorial system, but the game desperately needs one. Perhaps it's time the community take the reigns on this one and make it happen?
Time spent on Balance mod : around 20 hours. One clan match and 2 ensl gathers.
Changes, to my mind, are always good. But we have to make the correct changes, and not stupid stuff. So, i really like sewlek's way of working, taking in account a lot of feedbacks and all.
First, the general idea of getting more strategic decisions with more viable build orders as marine AND as alien is great. However, I feel like you are just copying marine's system for aliens. For example, alien comm can't really get out of hive a lot. So, now this game, on match, will be more a 5v5 on field. It's not THAT bad, but what I loved in ns1 was the balancing between 2 really different races. AND I MISS IT SOOOOOOOOOO MUCH !
Second, I'm afraid of not liking this movement code at all. I'll make a list on each side to give my point of view.
MARINES :
- Commanding : the fact you can have upgrades by skipping armory is good because you are comitting since you can't have mines as well.
Robo first, with an armory, unlocking mines : i really hated this, but actually it's a great idea. Getting a really useful building to unlock mines is fun. Moreover, we never saw a lot of time robotyc factories in games. The metagame on vanilla is to get full upgrades with jps and good pgs. Moreover, when you have a robo, it gives more possibilities (keeping a lot of pressure with all the marines while macs are building for example) so commander requires more skill and multi-tasking.
- Being able to get jetpacks without a second CC... I don't know if it's a good idea yet. Getting jps cost 15 instead of 10 P-res to make the balance, i'm not sure if it's the correct decision.
- Nano research in the CC : great, but maybe too powerful if nanoshield cost less than 5 t-res when dropping it.
- Flamethrower/GL in a single research : great. Anyway, it won't be used in match since these weapons are totally handicapping marines and are still really expensive to buy.
- SG cost 25 P-res... wth ! I found it way too much expensive, it's like you can only buy 1 SG per game, since you have to buy welders to weld your teammates' armor... Errrrrrrrh... In general, it's like too many things are depending on P-res and you go out of personal resources way too fast. Either decrease the cost of welders and sgs, either make them cheaper with T-res. Moreover, shotgun has been nerfed with damages. Changelog says the spread is adjusted, but i feel like it isn't at all. Sometimes, big full faces won't deal more than 12 dmgs !? I'm not whining, just wondering what is really "adjusted". I prefered vanilla SG.
It's like we are running out of options... GET HMG BAACK LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL ! Shotgun is a must-have to stay in the game as marine... If you make them THAT expensive, how can we make it ?
- Movement code : wOooooooooooOOOOOO00000000OOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooot. Sorry but, why would you make marines slower (no air control and some inertness on the floor after a jump) during the fights if the aliens are faster !? No air control at all is soooooo bad. Moreover, skulks stick easier on walls and roofs, so their movements look crazy sometimes... Ok, you have the infinite sprint, but think about the fights, which is the most important aspect of the game... Moreover, since there are no gradual melee attacks and skulks do 75 dmgs everytime, a marine without armor gets killed so easily. You out-dps meds’ healing every single fight (that give 50 hps) since there's a CD to drop them. Then, you run out of options since you can’t dodge any bites, and you are sure to die from a single skulk... You must kill the skulk before it gets on close-combat, but eh, NS2 fights never look like this situation, do they ?!
Sprinting infinitely is a good idea, it forces aliens to scout EVERY single room on the start of a game, and never forget that marines can come back to a position REALLY fast. It makes the game’s pace faster, like in good old ns1.
ALIENS :
- Commanding : Pros and cons... I don’t like the fact aliens look like marines now. The commander can’t really get out of the hive, since you must micromanage your drifters to build structures that you drop constantly (cysts, for example, MUST have a drifter to be build decently fast). Having the possibility to drop all kind of active chambers (crags/shifts/shades) isn’t a great idea. I’d really love to see another way to balance it up... I’d love to see a specialisation, a “commit” in a tech path to unlock upgrades for life forms and building drops. It’s like, whatever you’re doing, you still have access to everything except upgrades for the life forms. But since Silence/Camouflage and Celerity/adrenaline are still not viable as first upgrade, i understand Sewlek’s choice.
Max eggs per hive : 3... ? It’s not enough imo. Should be 4 at least, maybe 5. Just imagine your whole team dies once, you already run out of eggs and you must drop 2 egg that cost 5 T-res, which is quite expensive. Moreover, you have 5 T-res drifters that are a must-have to build stuff, expand your creep and scout marine’s movements. Egg life form are more expensive as well now. Crag upgrades cost now 15+20+20+20 : OK, it gives you the possibility to get cara and regen, but regen isn’t really viable... Except for res biters maybe, but still...
I feel like, in general, expending is hell to slow... Of course, in vanilla, it’s way too fast to get map control with shit 24239780345hps cysts. But now, building cyst buy cyst thanks to a drifter, then wait for the creep too expand, then drop the rt and build it with drifter. A single marine killing a single cyst during its growing kill all the cyst chain die soooooooooooooooooo fast... We can find a balanced system to make cyst expansion viable and not too much powerful at the same time.
- Movement code : errrrrrrrrrrrh. I don’t really like it. You have even less air control than vanilla and you have the bunnyhop system to keep your speed !? How the hell can we have both ? Bunnyhop needs air control... Moreover, fights are waaaaaaaaay more static and you can’t really get out of a critical situation as a skulk. It’s like we don’t see any skill-needed movements anymore. I love seeing right before the engage of the fight if the skulk is good or no. In ns1, you could judge this in a single second. On vanilla, sometimes you just simply can’t if the skulk got luck or if you missed something as marine. Of course, getting high speed requires skill and experience, but it’s only a travelling speed that you can’t really apply in fights.
- Skulk : you stick waaaay too much on walls and roofs. Vanilla system looked quite good to me on that point... Maybe it’s a way to make skulks use roofs more often, but it’s not effective at all. You wan’t to walljump, you’re getting an awesome speed and suddenly you stick to the roof while you were 282342 miles under it... !? (Yes, it’s an exaggeration) I started enjoying vanilla skulk, but now... without air control and this weird bunnyhop that can’t help you to keep your speed when jumping on a higher level (box, small stairs) i feel really sad
- Lerk : Stop da nerf please... First, it’s slower than vanilla. Second, you can’t fly on the floor, what was one of the most used escaping move you had as lerk. Thirdly, it has less HPs and APs. Fourthly, collisions are now fixed between marines and aliens, so it’s even harder to bite and dodge bullets at the same time. Wow, this is too many things you’ve done to my prefered alien class... I’m hell disappointed and I’m wondering why ALL these changes. Sure, marines can’t get AP back without welders, but eh, SGs’ spread is “adjusted” so you can easily snipe a lerk. Moreover, this class has always been and should always be the best defensive class ever. Sewlek, you’re making it useless and be a support class.
- Fade : It’s like you die sooooooooooooooo fast. Of course, I’ve not trained enough to judge correctly its changes. But, the shadowstep is sooo useless now. For traveling, with the bunnyhop system, it feels great. During fights, it seems like you can’t make 2 swipes without dying, and you run out of adren too fast. Fades were not that cheated and not that unbalanced on vanilla, to my mind. Of course, the fade “explosion” strategy in match is powerful, but there are counters to this. So, I feel like fade is weaker than ever here, just tell me if i’m wrong. But hell, it’s a pleasure to get down fades, solo with LMG and being able to hit them correctly when blinking/shadowsteping... I don’t know how to make it better balanced, so I’m just giving you my opinion.
- Onos : big nerf on the attacks, which are good to me. Range is retarded on vanilla. Dmg aswell. I don’t like this system, on vanilla of course, that gives you two types of attacks. One for buildings, one when not aiming at a building. It’s retarded... When you’re killing a phase gate and a marine gets out of it, of course you want to be able to hit him. But no, sometimes the “building attack” applies on the building’s hitbox instead of the marine you’re perfectly hitting... Maybe this is something to think about... Having only one type of attack.
To conclude, let’s just remind the important things. The differences between system races MUST STAY. This is what gives the beauty of this game.
Balance mod, now, seems to be positioning, fortifying war... No, no, and no. What i liked in vanilla is the fact you can, as alien, adapt quite fast to enemies’ movements and expand where they aren’t. Now, with this slow alien expansion, you must go for 1 rt, then upgrade a bit, get a shade or a crag, take another rt with a crag, be sure skulks cover it, etc... This kind of expansion doesn’t suit well with the idea I have of Natural Selection and the system of adaptability. It’s like you must fortify every structure you’re dropping, every single harvester. If all of your field players must be gorge once in a match to drop hydras and clogs, what the hell... ?!
Assuming you actually have eggs spawning or a built hive in said "base", if you only have a skulk arriving every 20-30 seconds that marine wont have anywhere near as much trouble....especially if the comm meds/nano's
If you're running in one skulk at a time... You're doing it wrong
Really? Even in a 6v6 game?
Yeah, really. 1 marine always has the advantage over 1 skulk, especially with meds and weapons upgrades vs a skulk just spawned with no upgrades.
This armor doesn't really make a huge difference in combat but I don't feel it's really necessary either.
Max eggs per hive : 3... ? It’s not enough imo. Should be 4 at least, maybe 5. Just imagine your whole team dies once, you already run out of eggs and you must drop 2 egg that cost 5 T-res, which is quite expensive. Moreover, you have 5 T-res drifters that are a must-have to build stuff, expand your creep and scout marine’s movements. Egg life form are more expensive as well now. Crag upgrades cost now 15+20+20+20 : OK, it gives you the possibility to get cara and regen, but regen isn’t really viable... Except for res biters maybe, but still...
The number of eggs is dynamic, more players on a team will mean more max eggs at each hive. Ultimately 12v12 teams should egg lock at the same rate as a 6v6 team.
Really? Even in a 6v6 game?
Assuming your trying to push another front at the same time.....you dont always want 2 or more skulks going to take out 1 marine.
You only have 5 in the field...sending 2 means your left with a 3v4 battle on other fronts.
Though if they can self heal up armour, get meds, ammo and nano...you will need to send 2-3 to take out 1 marine...thus leaving you exposed on other fronts and unable to hold ground on other fronts as your outnumbered.
Sorry its just a bad idea, it will simply mean good players will be able to pub stomp even harder..just what this gaming community needs.
It was bad enough that forward armouries offer armour healing...now that lone marine does not even need to find/build an armoury...just passivly regen armour.
1 skulk should not be engaging marines by itself... especially in 6v6. Instead of having 1 run in, have him wait, parasite, evade the marine until another shows up. Once you have two, kill him. You may be outnumbered 3v4 elsewhere (assuming the comm is in the hive at the time) but you're assuming that you need to attack those four marines. You don't. If there is one marine in your base and four marines in a ball somewhere, that means there aren't any other marines anywhere else on the map. Instead of trying to fight 3v4 you can just send the skulks to the marine base, an undefended PG, to bite res, etc.
If you really need to fight off the 4 marines, just have the 3 skulks wait until the other two have cleaned up the marine in base, then have everyone regroup and clear up the marine ball.
most games im still seeing marines put armories everywhere and marines hugging them for ammo/health so i dont think the change is particularly productive in this regard. i also often found myself as the only marine with a welder, welding everyone. i suppose this is the intended gameplay but i didnt find it particularly fun, especially as hardly anyone was welding me back. note that this was on a server full of experienced players.
i think another problem people arent considering much is that public comms dont really med, and this change kind of assume's that the comm meds like a comp comm - but thats mostly not the case on public. players will run back to armories for health, aswell as having to seek out a welder.
i think it would be better to make changes aimed at making armories less cost efficient and promoting marine welding and repairing through another method?
Ok, well how about this for a different idea. It may be rubbish, but I'll throw it out there for the sake of adding something new to the debate.
Repair stations. A separate building that would repair armor. Or perhaps it could be an upgraded version of the armory that would loose the health and ammo restoration. Either way, it would provide a place for marines to repair their own armor, but would be highly inefficient as it would be another 10 tres spent on something that's not tech. And as an added twist, perhaps it could also repair exos.
Or if we want to get really out of the box here, let macs "deploy". They would become stationary, but would receive a permanent nanoshield for increased durability.
My idea is to simply increase the cost of Armories to 15-20 tRes while still letting them repair armor. This makes forward Armories more of a risk. Also, decreasing the cost of Welders down to 2 or 3 pRes will further encourage their usage while not making them required.
- Movement code : errrrrrrrrrrrh. I don’t really like it. You have even less air control than vanilla and you have the bunnyhop system to keep your speed !? How the hell can we have both ? Bunnyhop needs air control... Moreover, fights are waaaaaaaaay more static and you can’t really get out of a critical situation as a skulk. It’s like we don’t see any skill-needed movements anymore. I love seeing right before the engage of the fight if the skulk is good or no. In ns1, you could judge this in a single second. On vanilla, sometimes you just simply can’t if the skulk got luck or if you missed something as marine. Of course, getting high speed requires skill and experience, but it’s only a travelling speed that you can’t really apply in fights.
Hmm... It's hard for me to comment on the skulk movement code as it seems to change daily. 1 week ago you had nearly no air control and loosed speed if trying to turn at anything over 45 degrees. 3-4 days ago I had NS1 air control. You can actually apply that speed in fights, 2-3 very quick succession walljumps will change your speed rapidly and due to the sporadic nature of jumping on the walls makes you quite difficult to hit. Just please remember that this is not a bhop implementation, it is a pseudo bhop & walljump combo.
Another match i've just plaied there. Umbra is way too early and powerful... I think it should be like in ns1, just covering the area where umbra is, not applying a buff on every lifeform going through it.
Alien wins so easily. Harvesters have 23425346523413423446436345 HPs. Marines don't have options in fight except dying, since there's no glancing bites and no air control so you can try to dodge alien's bites.
Moreover, skulks' speed is way too crazy. It should be blocked at some point !
My idea is to simply increase the cost of Armories to 15-20 tRes while still letting them repair armor. This makes forward Armories more of a risk. Also, decreasing the cost of Welders down to 2 or 3 pRes will further encourage their usage while not making them required.
Forward armories have never been the whole problem. Pub players will always flock to an armor-repairing armory like moths to a flame, and if it's in their home base then that's where they're gonna go no matter how far away it is. To some extent it's about taking away the security blanket to encourage better play.
My idea is to simply increase the cost of Armories to 15-20 tRes while still letting them repair armor. This makes forward Armories more of a risk. Also, decreasing the cost of Welders down to 2 or 3 pRes will further encourage their usage while not making them required.
Forward armories have never been the whole problem. Pub players will always flock to an armor-repairing armory like moths to a flame, and if it's in their home base then that's where they're gonna go no matter how far away it is. To some extent it's about taking away the security blanket to encourage better play.
And they'll flock to the Armory regardless of whether or not it repairs armor because it still heals health, gives ammo, and sells shotguns/welders/mines. We should probably remove those ASAP.
Forcing people to play a specific way because it will make them "play better" is a laughably bad concept. All it really does is make the good players better and the bad players worse. Good players often already bring welders and weld their teammates; don't force the playstyle onto everybody.
My idea is to simply increase the cost of Armories to 15-20 tRes while still letting them repair armor. This makes forward Armories more of a risk. Also, decreasing the cost of Welders down to 2 or 3 pRes will further encourage their usage while not making them required.
Forward armories have never been the whole problem. Pub players will always flock to an armor-repairing armory like moths to a flame, and if it's in their home base then that's where they're gonna go no matter how far away it is. To some extent it's about taking away the security blanket to encourage better play.
And they'll flock to the Armory regardless of whether or not it repairs armor because it still heals health, gives ammo, and sells shotguns/welders/mines. We should probably remove those ASAP.
Forcing people to play a specific way because it will make them "play better" is a laughably bad concept. All it really does is make the good players better and the bad players worse. Good players often already bring welders and weld their teammates; don't force the playstyle onto everybody.
Intuitively encouraging correct play is good game design. Now when you return to hump the armory you'll quickly realize that you're still missing something important, and you need teammates to get it. And when you're out and about with teammates who weld you, maybe you call for a medpack instead of going home. Currently in live nobody welds because they all hump the armory - thus, armory humping is reinforced as the only way to recover armor.
My idea is to simply increase the cost of Armories to 15-20 tRes while still letting them repair armor. This makes forward Armories more of a risk. Also, decreasing the cost of Welders down to 2 or 3 pRes will further encourage their usage while not making them required.
Forward armories have never been the whole problem. Pub players will always flock to an armor-repairing armory like moths to a flame, and if it's in their home base then that's where they're gonna go no matter how far away it is. To some extent it's about taking away the security blanket to encourage better play.
And they'll flock to the Armory regardless of whether or not it repairs armor because it still heals health, gives ammo, and sells shotguns/welders/mines. We should probably remove those ASAP.
Forcing people to play a specific way because it will make them "play better" is a laughably bad concept. All it really does is make the good players better and the bad players worse. Good players often already bring welders and weld their teammates; don't force the playstyle onto everybody.
Intuitively encouraging correct play is good game design. Now when you return to hump the armory you'll quickly realize that you're still missing something important, and you need teammates to get it. And when you're out and about with teammates who weld you, maybe you call for a medpack instead of going home. Currently in live nobody welds because they all hump the armory - thus, armory humping is reinforced as the only way to recover armor.
Encouraging better play is great. Forcing people to play a specific way is not. Encouraging players to buy welders and weld each other can be easily done by making welders a lot cheaper.
Experienced players will be just as strong no matter what direction you take the game. The only way to change that is to make the game so easy to play that everyone could play almost perfectly. The simplest way to do that is increase the hp on all lifeforms and slow them down. This would remove the alien ability to dodge and avoid bullets. That way marines will be able to hit the aliens pretty well no matter what and everyone would be able to master the movement mechanics quite easily since they require less skill to use. But at the same time it would make the game quite boring.
Good players depend on welding just like everyone else, its not like it affects some players more than others. Its just a poor argument for the issue. Its better to focus on gameplay facts.
Comments
The tiny replenishment of his armor will have 0 effect on his lifespan in your base.
I disagree with it, nano armor is back for testing but even that I also disagree with
Having to weld or macs only is tenfold better
Assuming you actually have eggs spawning or a built hive in said "base", if you only have a skulk arriving every 20-30 seconds that marine wont have anywhere near as much trouble....especially if the comm meds/nano's
To me, the BT has just proven how successful armor welding can be. In fact resulting in marines having full armor more often than vanilla outside of armory locations. Why add exceptions to something so simple.
If you're running in one skulk at a time... You're doing it wrong
Assuming your trying to push another front at the same time.....you dont always want 2 or more skulks going to take out 1 marine.
You only have 5 in the field...sending 2 means your left with a 3v4 battle on other fronts.
Though if they can self heal up armour, get meds, ammo and nano...you will need to send 2-3 to take out 1 marine...thus leaving you exposed on other fronts and unable to hold ground on other fronts as your outnumbered.
Sorry its just a bad idea, it will simply mean good players will be able to pub stomp even harder..just what this gaming community needs.
It was bad enough that forward armouries offer armour healing...now that lone marine does not even need to find/build an armoury...just passivly regen armour.
You're being ridiculous, .5 armor per second is not giving anyone indefinite survivability. That's one extra bite worth of health every 76 seconds. And they spent 5 res on a welder they're not using to get it.
It's not about regenerating the amount necessary to always take another full bite. It's about regenerating enough to make a difference between 2 and 3 bites after a parasite.
that reward should be and is independent of the armoury healing armour though. the armoury not healing armour is but a mechanism to get marines to carry welders more and thus have more marineonmarine welder action. if thats the goal though, there are other ways of achieving it that are less controversial and more accessible, while also leaving you to balance the armoury in otherways so that it remains an option on the battlefield. not to mention you dont make marines completely dependent on their teammates, and you dont have the illogicality of the current system.
In science, the more you find yourself 'fixing' and 'hacking' your theory, the more likely it is that there is some elemental error or flaw. i think the same could be said here - the mechanic is getting bloated and 'hacky' in its approach. I think its time to change tack.
It works fine
1) prevent the silly 1 base turtling you could do lategame with a3 and gl's etc. AA repair just defeats the point.
2) Increase marine pres sinks to combat shotgun proliferation and other tech explosions that are the natural consequence of ns2's tres/pres system.
3) Increase teamwork
Any proposed midway solution that breaks any of these 3 just defeats the entire point. Would rather the BT mod go either all the way, or not at all regarding welding gameplay. We shouldn't need gimmicks like your armour magically repairing if you weld someone else, free welders, or AA repairing armour.
Also, I think BT 'metagame' isn't yet very developed. Early robo is potentially quite powerful for early-mid arc plays due to cheap RT's and mines. Besides phasegate and jp rushing, nothing else really levers the cheap RT's like robo plays. Alot of potential for different viable marine builds such as having that early MAC just sitting on the armoury. And i like that - early robo being an interesting tech decision with nice feeling flexibility and tradeoffs.
And with later game you don't suffer from the same issues with MAC repair due to bilebomb/repair interupt, single MAC repair only, low hp, and MACS being soft targets (1 bite will hit all MACS in range).
-vet "So you get health and armor back from an armory, or you can get a welder and heal the armor of your teammates"
-newbie "But I can't heal health with a welder?"
-vet "No"
-newbie "So if armories heal both but welders don't heal health, should I ever get a welder?"
-vet "Yes. Well... maybe. It depends. Are you saving for a shotgun? Is there a forward armory? Are welders even researched yet?"
-newbie "..."
Or the new system:
-vet "So you get health from armories and armor from your teammates with a welder."
-newbie "So I should get a welder?"
-vet "Yes."
-newbie "Ok!"
Overall you're now completely reliant on a commander dropping med packs and the people left and right of you, something tells me your results may vary. I hardly see this affecting the vocal majority in the thread of Elodea, Scatter, MF, Jekt as they've all been involved in the clan scene and they've already been using welders effectively in pushes for the last 4 months as they're all very well aware of how to play this game at a high level.
If you truly think that eliminating all other ways of replenishing armour is the best way to highlight the use of 'tactical' welders then go ahead, pub marines now by and by large thanks to Archaea are very well used to the pointy end of the dick and having things taken away from them, I'm sure there's lots more interesting stuff in the BT mod I'm somehow unaware of that will balance out this new pres sink and otherwise punishing mechanic for the sake of forcing team work. As much as I want to believe raising the floor and ceiling at the same time will naturally force people to adapt and overcome I see a great many people just fucking off as both sides become more reliant upon a solid commander and more solid team work.
Really hoping the time frame for release at this stage is before the end of the month otherwise I see all this angst as being irrelevant.
It seems to me that this particular discussion, and many others that have come before, is breaking down into "The game is too complicated, we need to make it easier", "Well inexperienced players just don't know how to play, they should learn", "But nobody works together, we need to make it a more solo experience", "No, that just make the game suck. It's not that hard once you understand." and on and on it goes. And I think this is largely barking up the wrong tree as it focuses on changing the game rather than changing how people are introduced to the game. Removing teamplay elements for the sake of a more accessible solo experience is a vastly unwise decision in my opinion, but so is doing nothing about the brick wall of a learning curve.
Instead, lets focus on making the game as interesting as possible in it's niche, a team strategy shooter, but at the same time come up with new and better ways of introducing people to the necessary complexities. I understand that UWE does not have the resources to commit to an extensive tutorial system, but the game desperately needs one. Perhaps it's time the community take the reigns on this one and make it happen?
Changes, to my mind, are always good. But we have to make the correct changes, and not stupid stuff. So, i really like sewlek's way of working, taking in account a lot of feedbacks and all.
First, the general idea of getting more strategic decisions with more viable build orders as marine AND as alien is great. However, I feel like you are just copying marine's system for aliens. For example, alien comm can't really get out of hive a lot. So, now this game, on match, will be more a 5v5 on field. It's not THAT bad, but what I loved in ns1 was the balancing between 2 really different races. AND I MISS IT SOOOOOOOOOO MUCH !
Second, I'm afraid of not liking this movement code at all. I'll make a list on each side to give my point of view.
MARINES :
- Commanding : the fact you can have upgrades by skipping armory is good because you are comitting since you can't have mines as well.
Robo first, with an armory, unlocking mines : i really hated this, but actually it's a great idea. Getting a really useful building to unlock mines is fun. Moreover, we never saw a lot of time robotyc factories in games. The metagame on vanilla is to get full upgrades with jps and good pgs. Moreover, when you have a robo, it gives more possibilities (keeping a lot of pressure with all the marines while macs are building for example) so commander requires more skill and multi-tasking.
- Being able to get jetpacks without a second CC... I don't know if it's a good idea yet. Getting jps cost 15 instead of 10 P-res to make the balance, i'm not sure if it's the correct decision.
- Nano research in the CC : great, but maybe too powerful if nanoshield cost less than 5 t-res when dropping it.
- Flamethrower/GL in a single research : great. Anyway, it won't be used in match since these weapons are totally handicapping marines and are still really expensive to buy.
- SG cost 25 P-res... wth ! I found it way too much expensive, it's like you can only buy 1 SG per game, since you have to buy welders to weld your teammates' armor... Errrrrrrrh... In general, it's like too many things are depending on P-res and you go out of personal resources way too fast. Either decrease the cost of welders and sgs, either make them cheaper with T-res. Moreover, shotgun has been nerfed with damages. Changelog says the spread is adjusted, but i feel like it isn't at all. Sometimes, big full faces won't deal more than 12 dmgs !? I'm not whining, just wondering what is really "adjusted". I prefered vanilla SG.
It's like we are running out of options... GET HMG BAACK LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL ! Shotgun is a must-have to stay in the game as marine... If you make them THAT expensive, how can we make it ?
- Movement code : wOooooooooooOOOOOO00000000OOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooot. Sorry but, why would you make marines slower (no air control and some inertness on the floor after a jump) during the fights if the aliens are faster !? No air control at all is soooooo bad. Moreover, skulks stick easier on walls and roofs, so their movements look crazy sometimes... Ok, you have the infinite sprint, but think about the fights, which is the most important aspect of the game... Moreover, since there are no gradual melee attacks and skulks do 75 dmgs everytime, a marine without armor gets killed so easily. You out-dps meds’ healing every single fight (that give 50 hps) since there's a CD to drop them. Then, you run out of options since you can’t dodge any bites, and you are sure to die from a single skulk... You must kill the skulk before it gets on close-combat, but eh, NS2 fights never look like this situation, do they ?!
Sprinting infinitely is a good idea, it forces aliens to scout EVERY single room on the start of a game, and never forget that marines can come back to a position REALLY fast. It makes the game’s pace faster, like in good old ns1.
ALIENS :
- Commanding : Pros and cons... I don’t like the fact aliens look like marines now. The commander can’t really get out of the hive, since you must micromanage your drifters to build structures that you drop constantly (cysts, for example, MUST have a drifter to be build decently fast). Having the possibility to drop all kind of active chambers (crags/shifts/shades) isn’t a great idea. I’d really love to see another way to balance it up... I’d love to see a specialisation, a “commit” in a tech path to unlock upgrades for life forms and building drops. It’s like, whatever you’re doing, you still have access to everything except upgrades for the life forms. But since Silence/Camouflage and Celerity/adrenaline are still not viable as first upgrade, i understand Sewlek’s choice.
Max eggs per hive : 3... ? It’s not enough imo. Should be 4 at least, maybe 5. Just imagine your whole team dies once, you already run out of eggs and you must drop 2 egg that cost 5 T-res, which is quite expensive. Moreover, you have 5 T-res drifters that are a must-have to build stuff, expand your creep and scout marine’s movements. Egg life form are more expensive as well now. Crag upgrades cost now 15+20+20+20 : OK, it gives you the possibility to get cara and regen, but regen isn’t really viable... Except for res biters maybe, but still...
I feel like, in general, expending is hell to slow... Of course, in vanilla, it’s way too fast to get map control with shit 24239780345hps cysts. But now, building cyst buy cyst thanks to a drifter, then wait for the creep too expand, then drop the rt and build it with drifter. A single marine killing a single cyst during its growing kill all the cyst chain die soooooooooooooooooo fast... We can find a balanced system to make cyst expansion viable and not too much powerful at the same time.
- Movement code : errrrrrrrrrrrh. I don’t really like it. You have even less air control than vanilla and you have the bunnyhop system to keep your speed !? How the hell can we have both ? Bunnyhop needs air control... Moreover, fights are waaaaaaaaay more static and you can’t really get out of a critical situation as a skulk. It’s like we don’t see any skill-needed movements anymore. I love seeing right before the engage of the fight if the skulk is good or no. In ns1, you could judge this in a single second. On vanilla, sometimes you just simply can’t if the skulk got luck or if you missed something as marine. Of course, getting high speed requires skill and experience, but it’s only a travelling speed that you can’t really apply in fights.
- Skulk : you stick waaaay too much on walls and roofs. Vanilla system looked quite good to me on that point... Maybe it’s a way to make skulks use roofs more often, but it’s not effective at all. You wan’t to walljump, you’re getting an awesome speed and suddenly you stick to the roof while you were 282342 miles under it... !? (Yes, it’s an exaggeration) I started enjoying vanilla skulk, but now... without air control and this weird bunnyhop that can’t help you to keep your speed when jumping on a higher level (box, small stairs) i feel really sad
- Lerk : Stop da nerf please... First, it’s slower than vanilla. Second, you can’t fly on the floor, what was one of the most used escaping move you had as lerk. Thirdly, it has less HPs and APs. Fourthly, collisions are now fixed between marines and aliens, so it’s even harder to bite and dodge bullets at the same time. Wow, this is too many things you’ve done to my prefered alien class... I’m hell disappointed and I’m wondering why ALL these changes. Sure, marines can’t get AP back without welders, but eh, SGs’ spread is “adjusted” so you can easily snipe a lerk. Moreover, this class has always been and should always be the best defensive class ever. Sewlek, you’re making it useless and be a support class.
- Fade : It’s like you die sooooooooooooooo fast. Of course, I’ve not trained enough to judge correctly its changes. But, the shadowstep is sooo useless now. For traveling, with the bunnyhop system, it feels great. During fights, it seems like you can’t make 2 swipes without dying, and you run out of adren too fast. Fades were not that cheated and not that unbalanced on vanilla, to my mind. Of course, the fade “explosion” strategy in match is powerful, but there are counters to this. So, I feel like fade is weaker than ever here, just tell me if i’m wrong. But hell, it’s a pleasure to get down fades, solo with LMG and being able to hit them correctly when blinking/shadowsteping... I don’t know how to make it better balanced, so I’m just giving you my opinion.
- Onos : big nerf on the attacks, which are good to me. Range is retarded on vanilla. Dmg aswell. I don’t like this system, on vanilla of course, that gives you two types of attacks. One for buildings, one when not aiming at a building. It’s retarded... When you’re killing a phase gate and a marine gets out of it, of course you want to be able to hit him. But no, sometimes the “building attack” applies on the building’s hitbox instead of the marine you’re perfectly hitting... Maybe this is something to think about... Having only one type of attack.
To conclude, let’s just remind the important things. The differences between system races MUST STAY. This is what gives the beauty of this game.
Balance mod, now, seems to be positioning, fortifying war... No, no, and no. What i liked in vanilla is the fact you can, as alien, adapt quite fast to enemies’ movements and expand where they aren’t. Now, with this slow alien expansion, you must go for 1 rt, then upgrade a bit, get a shade or a crag, take another rt with a crag, be sure skulks cover it, etc... This kind of expansion doesn’t suit well with the idea I have of Natural Selection and the system of adaptability. It’s like you must fortify every structure you’re dropping, every single harvester. If all of your field players must be gorge once in a match to drop hydras and clogs, what the hell... ?!
Yeah, really. 1 marine always has the advantage over 1 skulk, especially with meds and weapons upgrades vs a skulk just spawned with no upgrades.
This armor doesn't really make a huge difference in combat but I don't feel it's really necessary either.
The number of eggs is dynamic, more players on a team will mean more max eggs at each hive. Ultimately 12v12 teams should egg lock at the same rate as a 6v6 team.
1 skulk should not be engaging marines by itself... especially in 6v6. Instead of having 1 run in, have him wait, parasite, evade the marine until another shows up. Once you have two, kill him. You may be outnumbered 3v4 elsewhere (assuming the comm is in the hive at the time) but you're assuming that you need to attack those four marines. You don't. If there is one marine in your base and four marines in a ball somewhere, that means there aren't any other marines anywhere else on the map. Instead of trying to fight 3v4 you can just send the skulks to the marine base, an undefended PG, to bite res, etc.
If you really need to fight off the 4 marines, just have the 3 skulks wait until the other two have cleaned up the marine in base, then have everyone regroup and clear up the marine ball.
i think another problem people arent considering much is that public comms dont really med, and this change kind of assume's that the comm meds like a comp comm - but thats mostly not the case on public. players will run back to armories for health, aswell as having to seek out a welder.
i think it would be better to make changes aimed at making armories less cost efficient and promoting marine welding and repairing through another method?
Repair stations. A separate building that would repair armor. Or perhaps it could be an upgraded version of the armory that would loose the health and ammo restoration. Either way, it would provide a place for marines to repair their own armor, but would be highly inefficient as it would be another 10 tres spent on something that's not tech. And as an added twist, perhaps it could also repair exos.
Or if we want to get really out of the box here, let macs "deploy". They would become stationary, but would receive a permanent nanoshield for increased durability.
Hmm... It's hard for me to comment on the skulk movement code as it seems to change daily. 1 week ago you had nearly no air control and loosed speed if trying to turn at anything over 45 degrees. 3-4 days ago I had NS1 air control. You can actually apply that speed in fights, 2-3 very quick succession walljumps will change your speed rapidly and due to the sporadic nature of jumping on the walls makes you quite difficult to hit. Just please remember that this is not a bhop implementation, it is a pseudo bhop & walljump combo.
Alien wins so easily. Harvesters have 23425346523413423446436345 HPs. Marines don't have options in fight except dying, since there's no glancing bites and no air control so you can try to dodge alien's bites.
Moreover, skulks' speed is way too crazy. It should be blocked at some point !
Forward armories have never been the whole problem. Pub players will always flock to an armor-repairing armory like moths to a flame, and if it's in their home base then that's where they're gonna go no matter how far away it is. To some extent it's about taking away the security blanket to encourage better play.
And they'll flock to the Armory regardless of whether or not it repairs armor because it still heals health, gives ammo, and sells shotguns/welders/mines. We should probably remove those ASAP.
Forcing people to play a specific way because it will make them "play better" is a laughably bad concept. All it really does is make the good players better and the bad players worse. Good players often already bring welders and weld their teammates; don't force the playstyle onto everybody.
Intuitively encouraging correct play is good game design. Now when you return to hump the armory you'll quickly realize that you're still missing something important, and you need teammates to get it. And when you're out and about with teammates who weld you, maybe you call for a medpack instead of going home. Currently in live nobody welds because they all hump the armory - thus, armory humping is reinforced as the only way to recover armor.
Encouraging better play is great. Forcing people to play a specific way is not. Encouraging players to buy welders and weld each other can be easily done by making welders a lot cheaper.
Good players depend on welding just like everyone else, its not like it affects some players more than others. Its just a poor argument for the issue. Its better to focus on gameplay facts.