I use alien tres and alien commander synonymously, as they're both redundant without the other, even more redundant than they are now. So yes, I of course understand that it's the pres/tres separation that causes the problems, not the alien commander itself, but alien tres wouldn't exist without the alien commander, so that's why I use them synonymously.
And while I understand that wanting to go back to NS1 mechanics just for the sake of them being NS1 mechanics is silly, there is no nostalgia or elitism involved here. There's just the fact that NS1 worked beautifully while NS2 works hardly at all.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2013
@therius
Fair enough.
As long as its understood that it was the addition of Tres that lead to the Alien commander, and not the other way around - as well that you can still bring back a singular res pool and still keep the commander.
If that distinction is made, then i'm happy..
And that's not actually hard to accomplish... it takes minimal design effort, just look at the downsides and complementary mechanics involved with Exos.
Not the best of examples, considering exos make public almost unplayable at the moment. Almost every game is marine turtle to exo. No wonder the playerbase is vanishing, when every round that isn't a one-sided stomp, is a dull grind for both teams.
Yea while i agree that Exos aren't perfect, or even very much favored, competitively, (statistically and historically speaking) i find that the Exo turtles are more a result of the tech being tied to only 1 CC. (Along with the arms lab also not being TechPoint dependent - unlike biomass scaling) Many, many posts in this thread and in others, have come to the same observation as well.
But the reason i chose it as an example of proper role implementation/complementary design - that works with the current resource model - still applies: Compare why 4-5 fades are so effective and desired instead of 4-5 Exos of the same cost. (ignoring tres differences)
Old style fade movement is not coming back. Get over it, 249 is the past and thankfully isn't coming back
Whether or not it will, it should. I dont want 249 back, im just still waiting to see a little thing called BALANCE from the balance mod, and the better fade movement replacing the failed rabbitfade experiment. Get over yourself.
But the reason i chose it as an example of proper role implementation/complementary design - that works with the current resource model - still applies: Compare why 4-5 fades are so effective and desired instead of 4-5 Exos of the same cost. (ignoring tres differences)
Fair enough. I'm not sure if I agree with that design philosophy, though, it comes with a lot of undesireable side effects.
And that's not actually hard to accomplish... it takes minimal design effort, just look at the downsides and complementary mechanics involved with Exos.
Exos are actually one of the worst design in the game. Even though they are forced to have downside they are still pain to adjust and have horrible effects on the public gameplay.
I do agree partly with the point that using ns1 mechanics for a new core resource model and alien core mechanics was a bad idea but thats to late to change. It would have felt more like a new game rather than a sequel as well if they had gone fully that route. I think UWE should have picked either one instead of mixing them together, but that's just my personal opinion.
they are still pain to adjust and have horrible effects on the public gameplay.
.
If i read that sentence right there out of context, i would swear you were speaking about Fades.
Sure adjustments are needed for exos, (like many other things) but they aren't breaking the game in any major way like fades are... not even in pubs?? This is directly thanks to their downsides.
What are these horrible effects they have on public gameplay, anyways?
Well from my experience in pubs, exos do tend to "break" the pub game to some extent. Their increased speed and massive DPS output makes them incredibly hard to deal with if they pop up in big numbers. Because it has become harder to end marine turtles in pubs (they often just sit on two bases and 2-3 RTs for half an hour and tech up slowly), this happens quite often.
Once they get exos done, they push out in all directions and destroy anything in their path. Sure, they can't build stuff, can't phase, can't beacon and need welders, but at that point in the game, it doesn't matter anymore, they can just push and take down hives one by one while an exo or two defends base. 6vs6 it's obviously less of a problem though.
What if there was a global cooldown on a per-purchase base for lifeforms/weapons? Just theoretically, since it would obviously be a major annoyance and would pretty much deny the concept of all-in rushes as soon as a certain tech is researched, as well as being able to pick a certain tech in a situation where you really need it.
Example: Someone buys a Shotgun. Now there is a 10 seconds cooldown before someone else can buy a Shotgun. The exact time would vary depending on the weapon. This could prevent the explosion of new tech on the field.
You could also make it so that the cooldown increases the more items of the same kind is on the field. Every additional Shotgun purchase would increase the timer by a few seconds, every Shotgun that gets destroyed on the field lowers the timer again.
Instead of a cooldown could it also affect the cost of the tech.
Same for alien lifeforms. It would be a forced diversity. Forcing game mechanics rather than just giving incentives is of course bad design, hence why I am just theorizing right now.
What if there was a global cooldown on a per-purchase base for lifeforms/weapons? Just theoretically, since it would obviously be a major annoyance and would pretty much deny the concept of all-in rushes as soon as a certain tech is researched, as well as being able to pick a certain tech in a situation where you really need it.
Example: Someone buys a Shotgun. Now there is a 10 seconds cooldown before someone else can buy a Shotgun. The exact time would vary depending on the weapon. This could prevent the explosion of new tech on the field.
You could also make it so that the cooldown increases the more items of the same kind is on the field. Every additional Shotgun purchase would increase the timer by a few seconds, every Shotgun that gets destroyed on the field lowers the timer again.
Instead of a cooldown could it also affect the cost of the tech.
Same for alien lifeforms. It would be a forced diversity. Forcing game mechanics rather than just giving incentives is of course bad design, hence why I am just theorizing right now.
I don't think the cd would work because it doesn't scale with player numbers, it's hard to communicate to the players, and it would feel very contrived.
The dynamic pricing idea I have never been a fan of. It's just going to confuse new players really. They'll see how much they need for something, then later when they have the res and try to evolve, it'll have mysteriously gone up. Yea it'll force lifeform diversity, but i doubt the tradeoff here between accessibility/intuitiveness, and gameplay is worth it.
You also get the psychological impact of a mechanic that essentially pits players from the same team against each other (trying to beat each other to the best 'price'), which is not ideal in my books. There is no other mechanic in ns2 that does this afaik (adding competition between players on the same team, instead of between players on different teams).
As a strictly Pub player, the Dual Minigun Exo's DPS is the main cause of issues in many Pub games.
It makes the Onos feel utterly useless, which makes turtles nigh impossible to break so long as there is one dual exo (or two single miniguns), and Dual Exo pushes almost unstoppable (all lifeforms die in <5 seconds, and BB gorges have to expose themselves due to range)
IMO the damage needs to be converted to NORMAL instead of HEAVY. They already do more DPS than all other marine weapons, even without having a 1:1 damage to armor ratio.
Has Minigun damage ever been tried as Normal?
I remember Onos HP skyrocketed once Hide Armor was removed in order to compensate for the Exo's damage, but its always been Heavy damage as far as I remember.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
@Benson I don't like damage modifiers such as light/heavy as it is. But atleast light damage with the pistol makes sense so it is only a final measure for the most part. Heavy damage miniguns on the other hand are ridiculous and overpowered. Agreed
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@Benson while I agree, I would lower the dps slightly; those issues you pointed out are not due to exo suit design - turtles occur even without exos, and onos are still very nerfed and weak even if exos aren't used. Also I think everyone would agree that BB got nerfed pretty hard lately as well.
So as long as exos are ending games quicker and not responsible for a 70% win rate... I still attest they themselves aren't breaking the game in any significant manner compared to fades.
Those issues are solely due to the exosuit's design - once/if its damage levels are adjusted into something that's actually sane, exos will become mostly useless, because of the 20 other tradeoffs they have which basically mandated the crazy high damage. By making something exceptionally good at a single thing and quite useless at many others doesnt end up forcing good unit composition, it simply makes for broken gameplay. There will always be strats which abuse the complete brokenness of a units strength. A good example is the constant gorge baserush harass tactics - which were abused constantly even before 5 pres gorges. Or we can go back to the beta when teams would 5 lerk rush the CC because the DPS of spikes on buildings were too good to stop in time. Or 5 flamer rush which could kill hives in about 10 seconds flat. Exos are just another example of why designing units with specific strengths/weaknesses is not going to fix the problems in NS2.
@Benson while I agree, I would lower the dps slightly; those issues you pointed out are not due to exo suit design - turtles occur even without exos, and onos are still very nerfed and weak even if exos aren't used.
The problem is that a majority of the drawbacks that are supposed to make up for the Exo's insane DPS don't apply in the final-base-turtle scenario.
You can't single the Exo out, he always has welder support available, he doesn't need to move somewhere, he doesn't need to use PGs and he doesn't need to build anything because there are countless guys respawning right next to him who can do that.
Aliens are expected to outsmart or outnumber the Exo in order to take him down, but you can't do that when there are constantly other players around him and your objective is basically to charge at him head on, which is exactly the thing you never really want to do by its design but are forced to do now to end the game.
Those issues are solely due to the exosuit's design
What? I'm sorry but thats not true at all.
Literally every one of those issues would remain if you removed exos from the game.
Do they interact with said issues like every other mechanic? Sure. Are they "soley due" to exo design? No.
Onos is weak - even without exos (hello JP W3)
Turtling occurs - even without exos (hello arms lab, GL player dmg and recycling weapons)
BB is nerfed - even without exos (was done to limit an individual gorge's impact on a base)
And finally, it blows my mind that you would ignore lifeform composition as being the most important aspect of lifeform design.
You mention mechanics that were broken, but they were broken because they violated said composition... and then you use said examples as a means to demonstrate how lifeform composition doesn't work??... what? #-o
Lerk's shouldn't be able to spike a CC to death, or drop Bilebomb... both are in violation of it's "harass/support" role. Same goes for everything else you mentioned.. flamers were never meant to be hive destroyers ... that's again violating it's intended composition. (disabler)
In fact, the only design aspects of the game that don't need adjustments are those that properly follow lifeform composition!
(gorge healing an onos during base sieges, Lerks spiking while skulks attack, and skulks working in packs leaving some portion of the map vulnerable etc etc)
Again, if you think otherwise, just weigh the reasons why a team wants 4-5 fades and not 4-5 lerks. (and i personally find lerks to be the 2nd largest offender for violating composition)
What's truly broken is the lifeform that doesn't follow any composition or complementary design to other lifeforms : the Fade.
Designing units with specific strengths/weaknesses that therefore require a team with varying lifeforms is the only way you are going to fix the problems in NS2 - as long as we keep the current resource model!
@Benson while I agree, I would lower the dps slightly; those issues you pointed out are not due to exo suit design - turtles occur even without exos, and onos are still very nerfed and weak even if exos aren't used.
The problem is that a majority of the drawbacks that are supposed to make up for the Exo's insane DPS don't apply in the final-base-turtle scenario..
While i agree, this is a direct result of having 1 CC Exos and W3, as you have pointed out in this thread previously.
Not because the Exo should have different or more downsides.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
Atleast with a Level 3 HMG it still took 27 shots to kill a fade in NS1. What is it in NS2 right now? 14-16? Plus they're doing full heavy structure damage? Plus they have an effective 800 health and take reduced damage from fades (or do they actually get puncture damage). Plus the miniguns don't overheat in a reasonable amount of time? Plus they don't even need ammo to resupply? Plus flamethrowers counter everything?
But I'm just someone who thinks Onoses and Exos ruin (or make boring) the game whether they're balanced or not.
I dont think you understand at all... Its not that certain things are overpowered or underpowered, all those were different roles tested for those lifeform/weapons. Flamers at one point were the structure damage weapon, or do you forget the dedicated GL came later? Lerks once had bilebomb and were intended to be harass/structure DPS. NS2 is not a class based game, I have said this so many times that I'm really quite sick of it... Every single step you take towards making it play that way (hello TF2 class mechanics) takes it miles away from what made NS1 interesting, and still leaves us no closer to balance. Your wanting to design away all of the parts of this game that actually make it interesting. You can not balance the resource model through class composition, unless your willing to completely scrap almost every single classes current 'balance' and start over. So long as an onos costs 60 pres and a gorge costs 5 there will never be balance through RPS mechanics.
If you force RPS mechanics you balance for 1 or 2 in a group. But then you also need to balance for massing, and generally that correlates to something either being quite strong individually, or quite useless. You can attempt to balance it away all you want through drawbacks, but as exos have proved quite well, it doesnt work. Exos can turtle just as well on W0 as W3, and before 250 they didnt even benefit from weapon upgrades, so again, not requiring 2 bases has absolutely nothing to do with why exo turtles are broken. Generally speaking most horrible marine turtles that aliens eventually lose too, happen when marines have 2 bases on lockdown, not when they are on 1. On pubs the damage of exos just runs out of control when you start getting 6+ people with them, at which point aliens cannot attempt to attack. They have to wait for marines to push and hope they can either win a baserace, or atleast trade 1 for 1.
Theres a big difference between teamplay (skulks in a pack, lerks spiking from afar, gorges healing) and forced teamplay through RPS mechanics (skulks hitting PG while fades camp marines), and I think you are confusing the 2.
With that said, I'm not against encouraging better lifeform composition, but it has to be done both carefully and conservatively. Making fades do something like 1 damage to structures for example, would severely hurt fade gameplay, and do little to actually fix why teams want 5 fades. Each team needs to have a single lifeform/weapon that the game is somewhat balanced around, and I think we all can agree balancing for onos vs exo would be horribly boring. Fade vs shotgun is the most fun for both sides, its just currently the fade en mass is too strong... But its hardly an 'unfixable' problem.
So if we can agree that Exo DPS is too high, and the Exo would be useless without that ridiculous damage, is it time to redesign the role of the Exo into a Heavy Marine?
Set damage type to normal.
Allow all Exos to be beaconed.
Allow 1-armed Exos to build/repair
- Reduce health to compensate
- Make welding an upgrade from Proto, same as dual Exo
Add a research on the Proto for advanced PGs that let Exos phase.
- Debateable
Reduce movement speed back to original values.
The idea is to make Exos a VERY expensive tech path, that is viable once the investment has been made.
To compensate:
- Increase Onos HP/Armor (a bit)
- Increase BB damage a bit
Please note that this is not a "it was like that in NS1" argument, I genuinly feel like this would make Exos much more fun and useful
P.S. @Ironhorse The Exo's design may not cause the problems with turtling and fragile Onoses, but it does compound the issues, as well as make the Marine's "siegebreaker" unit far to situational to be used effectively.
@xdragon
Well since you didn't reply to those items being "solely due to Exos" i can only take it you are now in agreement.
So onto the heart of the matter:
Theres a big difference between teamplay (skulks in a pack, lerks spiking from afar, gorges healing) and forced teamplay through RPS mechanics (skulks hitting PG while fades camp marines), and I think you are confusing the 2.
You see this is where you are confusing things... a gorge heals.. and no other lifeform does. That's forcing gameplay through a certain role.
You keep assuming there's teamwork without intentionally designed roles involved, but this is not the case because the team is not comprised entirely of one type of lifeform.
Everyone of those items you listed only as "teamplay", i clearly see as "forced teamplay through RPS mechanics"/ role implementation / lifeform composition. Skulks dont spike and lerks dont Heal.
NS2 is not a class based game, I have said this so many times that I'm really quite sick of it... Every single step you take towards making it play that way (hello TF2 class mechanics) takes it miles away from what made NS1 interesting, and still leaves us no closer to balance.
Yes.. Yes it is.. and so was NS1?? Just not how you're thinking of "class based" games.
Its not exactly like TF2, (all classes always available, none significantly more OP than the other) but there are interlocking classes/roles at play, roles that if properly implemented and defined will ensure a varied team - making massing issues like fade balls non viable or at the very least very risky.
Also I don't think "interesting" is a good enough justification for a 77% winrate imbalance, but that being said:
Natural Selection, both 1 and 2 not only contain roles/classes, but are built around them, being the game includes RTS mechanics.
Your gorge dropped a hive and your fade applied pressure while your skulks bit RTs. Dedicated GLs mean you need a varied squad to defend you while you use your anti structure weapon. etc etc etc
Rock, Paper, Scissor mechanics quite simply imply that you are good at one thing and not so good at another. That's it. What is the fade not good at?
It doesn't have to be this unstable pendulum that you paint, either, where you're either too strong individually or useless. Are GLs useless? No.. and yet they aren't strong individually either.
These gradients are everywhere in NS2 and are being employed successfully (you may just see it as "teamplay" and not necessarily interlocking mechanisms, idk) ... the ones that stand out are the ones that are improperly implemented..... like Fades.
"Accordingly, every unit in the game has a specific role that it serves (and some have secondary roles). These roles should be clear, unchanging and unique. Many of the biggest design and balance problems both in NS1 and NS2 resulted from not having a clearly defined roles. An example would be: Fades are not better Skulks. " -Charlie "Flayra"
That's the problem - you paid 40 res for a fade, it shouldn't be worse then a skulk. You cannot blur the lines completely - when I talk of a class based game, I'm referring to a TF2 style system where all classes are of relatively equal value. Yes there are many 'classes' currently that all work together to form the alien and marine teams, but there are still dominant roles that must be filled, on each side. The fade needs to be an upgrade over the skulk, as it costs resources. Just like the shotgun needs to be an upgrade over the rifle. If you blur those lines too much, you eventually land in a place where games cannot end, imagine TF2 designed in a way where each point took a minute to capture, and the enemy respawns directly ontop of the point. You would need to kill the entire team at least twice, and then throw in static defense and that can take even longer. Resources are the single most important thing in this game, and the more intertwined the classes become with their offset resource costs, the harder the game becomes to end. Many of the changes brought in 250 had that exact effect, even if you removed the 'fade ball' from aliens, marines still would have an extremely long grind to finish out the game. Games in 250 can easily last 40+ minutes, already way into the 'too long' zone IMO. There's good value in balancing each class to fit a role so that teamwork is rewarded, but currently its not the mass fade that's the problem, its the marine arsenal. If you asked me what weapon the marines have that is soley designed for killing players like a fade, I would tell you that there isn't one.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
You see I've always seen it as "paying for that role" and not "paying for that upgrade"... I don't feel my gorge, or lerk, or even my Onos is an upgrade as much as it is filling a role.
It needs to be this way, otherwise you end up with said pendulum, swinging back and forth between too powerful or too useless - since the values would be entirely influenced by player count.
Also, having said roles (not be purely designed as upgrades) doesn't mean the game doesn't end?? The most common form of ending games (assuming fadeballs are fixed) are done by the least "upgraded" classes? Bile bomb and ARCs/GLs.
This is because you are not paying for an upgrade to end the game.. you are paying to play a role that will assist doing so with teammates involved.
Anyway i think we're basically on the same page now, given that i obviously wouldn't say NS2 has a TF2 style system and we agree that properly implemented roles lead to good teamwork.
Out of curiosity, if one didn't wish to tamper with fade design (which i think would be a mistake) couldn't we design a grenade that is solely designed for assisting with killing fades?
A grenade that saps energy wouldn't be very effective, since the fade can easily dodge grenades.
Depends on how they're implemented I guess. If they explode based on a timer, then yeah they wouldn't do much. If they explode on impact, they'd be easier to hit than most things in this game
Well i would be surprised if UWE didnt release a grenade that sapped energy.
EMP grenade is already planned, I think. Models and effects are already there.
No clue if there is any chance to see that kind of stuff in the Beta Test mod or if they prefer to hold it back so that such content has a bigger "wow"-effect when it's finally released.
emp grenade is gimmicky and dumb imo. It relies heavily on a) A lucky timed grenade on a fast moving fade. This usually ends up meaning you just throw grenades at your feet. Not much thinking or skill involved here. You either get lucky or you don't - leading to the next point.
b)The fade being dumb enough to not realise he has no energy left. Oh you emp'd me? brb while i blink around the corner and wait a bit. Atleast an explosive makes that fade go back to the hive and spend energy doing so.
Or depending on emp grenade implementation, fade being instantly screwed over by even trying to 1 swipe an exo with welder marines chucking emp grenades at it. Instant 100 to 0 energy is a huge concern to me here especially with how randomly it can potentially occur.
--
Gameplay consequences end up being the same as in ns2 combat. Emp is either not used, or when it is used to fill a spare point, it is spammed following a singular/uninteresting condition (fade attacking me, throw grenade at my feet). Annoying and adds not much interesting gameplay between players. Emp is just something you need to get out of the way as a rote action.
What about against skulks? Unavoidably worse than normal explosive grenade. Under no circumstance or implementation variation is there a reason to use an emp grenade when you can use an explosive due to low hp. (unless the emp grenade aoe range is imba and significantly higher than explosive)
These things are most probably going to be pres free, especially when it comes to turtles. So my prediction is that their only real effect is preventing onoses from doing anything (explosive tampon grenades don't do this), further prolonging alien won games, and maybe making your screen several shades of immersive blue.
It strikes me that the main contributory factor to the fade ball being a major issue is this:
A group of 5 SG marines is incredibly difficult for an alien team to take out.
A group of 5 fades is incredibly difficult for a marine team to take out.
A group of 5 marines leaves the entire rest of the map undefended. If they move away from phase, the obs is the only thing that will save a base, and that destroys their offensive potential.
A group of 5 fades can move anywhere on the map in under 20 seconds.
Not getting into the res differences etc, the movement capability of fades coupled with the combinatorial benefits of fade balling make them disproportionately good.
No amount of reducing structure damage is going to stop this. Either their movement needs to be curbed (leading to more stale gameplay and much more paper-like fades), or a way needs to be found to reduce the possibility of a team GETTING 5 fades in the first place.
I really don't like the hidden costs of dynamic pricing, though on paper at least, it would achieve the desired goal: first X fades can be had relatively easily, additional fades will be delayed significantly such that continued map domination still allows a fade ball.
So here's my alternative idea:
Nerf the fade a bit, but allow other classes (gorge, lerk, maybe onos) to apply buffs, like umbra currently does, on a temporary basis. If you *required* a gorge and a lerk to make the fade decent, you have 2 effects: 1) require players to take other classes, reducing the effectiveness of 5 fades vs 2-3 fades + support, and 2) effectively limit the combination of amazing movement capabilities with brilliant killing ability: the gorge and lerk will be slower to react to other areas on the map, and if fades go on their own, they wouldn't be as good as the fade/lerk/gorge combo.
This would amount to enforced teamwork, which may not be desirable (but equally... may...). It would give the marines a genuine choice to target either the fades or their support classes.
The same could be applied with oni: primal scream as an onos upgrade ability to further give a bonus for teamwork, although I realise this is essentially done by the drifter's red mist currently.
I'm just throwing out an idea here, not suggesting this is the answer. I haven't thought it through all possible scenarios, but even if I had I'm sure some peeps here would love to call it 'stupid' anyway, so hey ho
Comments
I use alien tres and alien commander synonymously, as they're both redundant without the other, even more redundant than they are now. So yes, I of course understand that it's the pres/tres separation that causes the problems, not the alien commander itself, but alien tres wouldn't exist without the alien commander, so that's why I use them synonymously.
And while I understand that wanting to go back to NS1 mechanics just for the sake of them being NS1 mechanics is silly, there is no nostalgia or elitism involved here. There's just the fact that NS1 worked beautifully while NS2 works hardly at all.
Fair enough.
As long as its understood that it was the addition of Tres that lead to the Alien commander, and not the other way around - as well that you can still bring back a singular res pool and still keep the commander.
If that distinction is made, then i'm happy..
Yea while i agree that Exos aren't perfect, or even very much favored, competitively, (statistically and historically speaking) i find that the Exo turtles are more a result of the tech being tied to only 1 CC. (Along with the arms lab also not being TechPoint dependent - unlike biomass scaling) Many, many posts in this thread and in others, have come to the same observation as well.
But the reason i chose it as an example of proper role implementation/complementary design - that works with the current resource model - still applies: Compare why 4-5 fades are so effective and desired instead of 4-5 Exos of the same cost. (ignoring tres differences)
Exos are actually one of the worst design in the game. Even though they are forced to have downside they are still pain to adjust and have horrible effects on the public gameplay.
I do agree partly with the point that using ns1 mechanics for a new core resource model and alien core mechanics was a bad idea but thats to late to change. It would have felt more like a new game rather than a sequel as well if they had gone fully that route. I think UWE should have picked either one instead of mixing them together, but that's just my personal opinion.
Sure adjustments are needed for exos, (like many other things) but they aren't breaking the game in any major way like fades are... not even in pubs?? This is directly thanks to their downsides.
What are these horrible effects they have on public gameplay, anyways?
Once they get exos done, they push out in all directions and destroy anything in their path. Sure, they can't build stuff, can't phase, can't beacon and need welders, but at that point in the game, it doesn't matter anymore, they can just push and take down hives one by one while an exo or two defends base. 6vs6 it's obviously less of a problem though.
Example: Someone buys a Shotgun. Now there is a 10 seconds cooldown before someone else can buy a Shotgun. The exact time would vary depending on the weapon. This could prevent the explosion of new tech on the field.
You could also make it so that the cooldown increases the more items of the same kind is on the field. Every additional Shotgun purchase would increase the timer by a few seconds, every Shotgun that gets destroyed on the field lowers the timer again.
Instead of a cooldown could it also affect the cost of the tech.
Same for alien lifeforms. It would be a forced diversity. Forcing game mechanics rather than just giving incentives is of course bad design, hence why I am just theorizing right now.
The dynamic pricing idea I have never been a fan of. It's just going to confuse new players really. They'll see how much they need for something, then later when they have the res and try to evolve, it'll have mysteriously gone up. Yea it'll force lifeform diversity, but i doubt the tradeoff here between accessibility/intuitiveness, and gameplay is worth it.
You also get the psychological impact of a mechanic that essentially pits players from the same team against each other (trying to beat each other to the best 'price'), which is not ideal in my books. There is no other mechanic in ns2 that does this afaik (adding competition between players on the same team, instead of between players on different teams).
It makes the Onos feel utterly useless, which makes turtles nigh impossible to break so long as there is one dual exo (or two single miniguns), and Dual Exo pushes almost unstoppable (all lifeforms die in <5 seconds, and BB gorges have to expose themselves due to range)
IMO the damage needs to be converted to NORMAL instead of HEAVY. They already do more DPS than all other marine weapons, even without having a 1:1 damage to armor ratio.
Has Minigun damage ever been tried as Normal?
I remember Onos HP skyrocketed once Hide Armor was removed in order to compensate for the Exo's damage, but its always been Heavy damage as far as I remember.
So as long as exos are ending games quicker and not responsible for a 70% win rate... I still attest they themselves aren't breaking the game in any significant manner compared to fades.
The problem is that a majority of the drawbacks that are supposed to make up for the Exo's insane DPS don't apply in the final-base-turtle scenario.
You can't single the Exo out, he always has welder support available, he doesn't need to move somewhere, he doesn't need to use PGs and he doesn't need to build anything because there are countless guys respawning right next to him who can do that.
Aliens are expected to outsmart or outnumber the Exo in order to take him down, but you can't do that when there are constantly other players around him and your objective is basically to charge at him head on, which is exactly the thing you never really want to do by its design but are forced to do now to end the game.
Literally every one of those issues would remain if you removed exos from the game.
Do they interact with said issues like every other mechanic? Sure. Are they "soley due" to exo design? No.
And finally, it blows my mind that you would ignore lifeform composition as being the most important aspect of lifeform design.
You mention mechanics that were broken, but they were broken because they violated said composition... and then you use said examples as a means to demonstrate how lifeform composition doesn't work??... what? #-o
Lerk's shouldn't be able to spike a CC to death, or drop Bilebomb... both are in violation of it's "harass/support" role. Same goes for everything else you mentioned.. flamers were never meant to be hive destroyers ... that's again violating it's intended composition. (disabler)
In fact, the only design aspects of the game that don't need adjustments are those that properly follow lifeform composition!
(gorge healing an onos during base sieges, Lerks spiking while skulks attack, and skulks working in packs leaving some portion of the map vulnerable etc etc)
Again, if you think otherwise, just weigh the reasons why a team wants 4-5 fades and not 4-5 lerks. (and i personally find lerks to be the 2nd largest offender for violating composition)
What's truly broken is the lifeform that doesn't follow any composition or complementary design to other lifeforms : the Fade.
Designing units with specific strengths/weaknesses that therefore require a team with varying lifeforms is the only way you are going to fix the problems in NS2 - as long as we keep the current resource model!
While i agree, this is a direct result of having 1 CC Exos and W3, as you have pointed out in this thread previously.
Not because the Exo should have different or more downsides.
But I'm just someone who thinks Onoses and Exos ruin (or make boring) the game whether they're balanced or not.
If you force RPS mechanics you balance for 1 or 2 in a group. But then you also need to balance for massing, and generally that correlates to something either being quite strong individually, or quite useless. You can attempt to balance it away all you want through drawbacks, but as exos have proved quite well, it doesnt work. Exos can turtle just as well on W0 as W3, and before 250 they didnt even benefit from weapon upgrades, so again, not requiring 2 bases has absolutely nothing to do with why exo turtles are broken. Generally speaking most horrible marine turtles that aliens eventually lose too, happen when marines have 2 bases on lockdown, not when they are on 1. On pubs the damage of exos just runs out of control when you start getting 6+ people with them, at which point aliens cannot attempt to attack. They have to wait for marines to push and hope they can either win a baserace, or atleast trade 1 for 1.
Theres a big difference between teamplay (skulks in a pack, lerks spiking from afar, gorges healing) and forced teamplay through RPS mechanics (skulks hitting PG while fades camp marines), and I think you are confusing the 2.
With that said, I'm not against encouraging better lifeform composition, but it has to be done both carefully and conservatively. Making fades do something like 1 damage to structures for example, would severely hurt fade gameplay, and do little to actually fix why teams want 5 fades. Each team needs to have a single lifeform/weapon that the game is somewhat balanced around, and I think we all can agree balancing for onos vs exo would be horribly boring. Fade vs shotgun is the most fun for both sides, its just currently the fade en mass is too strong... But its hardly an 'unfixable' problem.
Set damage type to normal.
Allow all Exos to be beaconed.
Allow 1-armed Exos to build/repair
- Reduce health to compensate
- Make welding an upgrade from Proto, same as dual Exo
Add a research on the Proto for advanced PGs that let Exos phase.
- Debateable
Reduce movement speed back to original values.
The idea is to make Exos a VERY expensive tech path, that is viable once the investment has been made.
To compensate:
- Increase Onos HP/Armor (a bit)
- Increase BB damage a bit
Please note that this is not a "it was like that in NS1" argument, I genuinly feel like this would make Exos much more fun and useful
P.S. @Ironhorse The Exo's design may not cause the problems with turtling and fragile Onoses, but it does compound the issues, as well as make the Marine's "siegebreaker" unit far to situational to be used effectively.
people get exos because turtling is the only thing marines have a chance at succeeding at because the game isn't balanced
@xdragon
Well since you didn't reply to those items being "solely due to Exos" i can only take it you are now in agreement.
So onto the heart of the matter:
You see this is where you are confusing things... a gorge heals.. and no other lifeform does. That's forcing gameplay through a certain role.
You keep assuming there's teamwork without intentionally designed roles involved, but this is not the case because the team is not comprised entirely of one type of lifeform.
Everyone of those items you listed only as "teamplay", i clearly see as "forced teamplay through RPS mechanics"/ role implementation / lifeform composition. Skulks dont spike and lerks dont Heal.
Yes.. Yes it is.. and so was NS1?? Just not how you're thinking of "class based" games.
Its not exactly like TF2, (all classes always available, none significantly more OP than the other) but there are interlocking classes/roles at play, roles that if properly implemented and defined will ensure a varied team - making massing issues like fade balls non viable or at the very least very risky.
Also I don't think "interesting" is a good enough justification for a 77% winrate imbalance, but that being said:
Natural Selection, both 1 and 2 not only contain roles/classes, but are built around them, being the game includes RTS mechanics.
Your gorge dropped a hive and your fade applied pressure while your skulks bit RTs. Dedicated GLs mean you need a varied squad to defend you while you use your anti structure weapon. etc etc etc
Rock, Paper, Scissor mechanics quite simply imply that you are good at one thing and not so good at another. That's it. What is the fade not good at?
It doesn't have to be this unstable pendulum that you paint, either, where you're either too strong individually or useless. Are GLs useless? No.. and yet they aren't strong individually either.
These gradients are everywhere in NS2 and are being employed successfully (you may just see it as "teamplay" and not necessarily interlocking mechanisms, idk) ... the ones that stand out are the ones that are improperly implemented..... like Fades.
"Accordingly, every unit in the game has a specific role that it serves (and some have secondary roles). These roles should be clear, unchanging and unique. Many of the biggest design and balance problems both in NS1 and NS2 resulted from not having a clearly defined roles. An example would be: Fades are not better Skulks. " -Charlie "Flayra"
It needs to be this way, otherwise you end up with said pendulum, swinging back and forth between too powerful or too useless - since the values would be entirely influenced by player count.
Also, having said roles (not be purely designed as upgrades) doesn't mean the game doesn't end?? The most common form of ending games (assuming fadeballs are fixed) are done by the least "upgraded" classes? Bile bomb and ARCs/GLs.
This is because you are not paying for an upgrade to end the game.. you are paying to play a role that will assist doing so with teammates involved.
Anyway i think we're basically on the same page now, given that i obviously wouldn't say NS2 has a TF2 style system and we agree that properly implemented roles lead to good teamwork.
Out of curiosity, if one didn't wish to tamper with fade design (which i think would be a mistake) couldn't we design a grenade that is solely designed for assisting with killing fades?
My suggestions to alleviate fade dominance:
Bring back pushback on PGs and IPs
- Prevents fades from being as effective at meat grinding
Increased damage and spread on Shotgun
- Large enough spread to prevent effective use at farther than ~20 ft, strong enough to be a threat to fades
Double energy cost of abilities for aliens that are on fire, as well as reducing energy regeneration
- Acts as a fade deterrent, and helps trap them
Exos as heavy marines
- Fades would deal reduced damage to Exo armor, making massed fades ineffective against Exos
Imagin vortexing an onos before he charges in so he can close the distance... Or vortex the hive from the duel exo's shooting it down...
Only limit would be with vortexing fades since the blink it would have to interfeR with that in some way...
EMP grenade is already planned, I think. Models and effects are already there.
No clue if there is any chance to see that kind of stuff in the Beta Test mod or if they prefer to hold it back so that such content has a bigger "wow"-effect when it's finally released.
a) A lucky timed grenade on a fast moving fade. This usually ends up meaning you just throw grenades at your feet. Not much thinking or skill involved here. You either get lucky or you don't - leading to the next point.
b)The fade being dumb enough to not realise he has no energy left. Oh you emp'd me? brb while i blink around the corner and wait a bit. Atleast an explosive makes that fade go back to the hive and spend energy doing so.
Or depending on emp grenade implementation, fade being instantly screwed over by even trying to 1 swipe an exo with welder marines chucking emp grenades at it. Instant 100 to 0 energy is a huge concern to me here especially with how randomly it can potentially occur.
--
Gameplay consequences end up being the same as in ns2 combat. Emp is either not used, or when it is used to fill a spare point, it is spammed following a singular/uninteresting condition (fade attacking me, throw grenade at my feet). Annoying and adds not much interesting gameplay between players. Emp is just something you need to get out of the way as a rote action.
What about against skulks? Unavoidably worse than normal explosive grenade. Under no circumstance or implementation variation is there a reason to use an emp grenade when you can use an explosive due to low hp. (unless the emp grenade aoe range is imba and significantly higher than explosive)
These things are most probably going to be pres free, especially when it comes to turtles. So my prediction is that their only real effect is preventing onoses from doing anything (explosive tampon grenades don't do this), further prolonging alien won games, and maybe making your screen several shades of immersive blue.
"Bring A back " or "Introduce B again"
means:
These things where in the game @ 1 point and there was a reason why they got removed.
And please: Stop transforming NS2 more and more into NS1.
NS1 wasnt the perfect game like some players maybe thinking. The game had many, MANY issues.
Example:
I am from germany and after 15 years some still thinking the DDR dictatorship wasn't such a bad thing after all.
A group of 5 SG marines is incredibly difficult for an alien team to take out.
A group of 5 fades is incredibly difficult for a marine team to take out.
A group of 5 marines leaves the entire rest of the map undefended. If they move away from phase, the obs is the only thing that will save a base, and that destroys their offensive potential.
A group of 5 fades can move anywhere on the map in under 20 seconds.
Not getting into the res differences etc, the movement capability of fades coupled with the combinatorial benefits of fade balling make them disproportionately good.
No amount of reducing structure damage is going to stop this. Either their movement needs to be curbed (leading to more stale gameplay and much more paper-like fades), or a way needs to be found to reduce the possibility of a team GETTING 5 fades in the first place.
I really don't like the hidden costs of dynamic pricing, though on paper at least, it would achieve the desired goal: first X fades can be had relatively easily, additional fades will be delayed significantly such that continued map domination still allows a fade ball.
So here's my alternative idea:
Nerf the fade a bit, but allow other classes (gorge, lerk, maybe onos) to apply buffs, like umbra currently does, on a temporary basis. If you *required* a gorge and a lerk to make the fade decent, you have 2 effects: 1) require players to take other classes, reducing the effectiveness of 5 fades vs 2-3 fades + support, and 2) effectively limit the combination of amazing movement capabilities with brilliant killing ability: the gorge and lerk will be slower to react to other areas on the map, and if fades go on their own, they wouldn't be as good as the fade/lerk/gorge combo.
This would amount to enforced teamwork, which may not be desirable (but equally... may...). It would give the marines a genuine choice to target either the fades or their support classes.
The same could be applied with oni: primal scream as an onos upgrade ability to further give a bonus for teamwork, although I realise this is essentially done by the drifter's red mist currently.
I'm just throwing out an idea here, not suggesting this is the answer. I haven't thought it through all possible scenarios, but even if I had I'm sure some peeps here would love to call it 'stupid' anyway, so hey ho