it's hard to take this map seriously when they fail at basic things like room names covering up RT locations (not just once, but in three separate instances)
The mappers have no control over this, the room names are centered automatically based on the area powergrid and there is no way to manually place location names on the minimap.
But don't mind me... continue ignorantly bashing the mappers and UWE for making an effort.
Its fairly obvious map testers and uwe fanboys want descent in, and others are split with some loving and some hating. Just because you feel a map is great, balanced, and ready it might not be *cough refinery cough*.
I think we all just want a map that's decently balanced and we don't know yet with descent (playtime lacking). So the obvious solution is to not play it in s2, let teams scrim on it, hold a night cup maybe, throw it in a tourney and get feedback, maybe even slot it into S2 halfway.
I hate to bring up refinery but look at the unbalanced mess it was and is and imagine if it was the map being added, it 'tested' fine, played terribly on release.
No one is bashing them for making an effort and people need to stop getting butthurt about honest criticism. You want it reworded all sunshine and daisies or something? It's negative feedback, coming from paying customers. Are we supposed to be happy that the map has problems?
How the fuck are we supposed to know that there is no way to manual place location names? Not only is that something very few of us are familiar with, that's something that sounds completely ridiculous to most people. Built in limitations on placing names on a minimap?
This is a product being bought and sold, and people really need to stop taking it so personally when people have harsh words about it. You have to remember, these are people who paid for this game. It's not like we got it for free.
That said: I don't find most of the things that biz brought up to be huge issues. The only problems I have with the map are these rt locations, which I'm reposting because the last link is on the bottom of the first page and I don't want it to not be seen. The launch control RT snipe is probably not very practical to pull off and isn't really that big of a deal in the long run, but the monorail one is pretty brutal. If spawns were locked to drone bay and fabrication everything would probably be fine, but if aliens get mono and marines get drone bay it's pretty much GG aliens. Maybe it could end up like pipe spawn where typically people do a fast second hive, but idk. It seems like all you would have to do is make the thing in the middle of monorail that blocks the RT a little bit wider, and marines would be forced to actually come into the room to shoot it.
No one is white-knighting for it, there are several issues pointed out in this thread that are going to be looked at and addressed. There were some initial concerns with the ENSL vote but Blind and Swalk have cleared that up.
And no one is claiming the map is perfect, it's just the tone some people take when giving criticism seems unnecessarily harsh. The responsibility of facilitating new competitive maps should not fall 100% on UWEs shoulders, there needs to be some sort of effort put forth by the competitive community too, in terms of playing the maps in smaller cups or scrims or whatever and giving feedback to get maps into a state where they can perhaps be added to the competitive map list. As opposed to refusing to play the maps because they are "bad", and then we're stuck with the same 3 maps season after season.
So, yes of course the majority of the map testers want to push for it to be in s2, we want to see more maps improved and ultimately viable for tournament play- and having them included in smaller cups/tourneys/qualifiers/whatever is one of the best ways to do that.
Oh don't get me wrong I'm pushing for it too! I'm tired of veil and tram and summit. Reeaaaalllly tired of summit. One of the other things that blows my mind is the fact that we're supposedly getting Icarus and Jambi in season 2... and both those maps need way more work than Descent does. Other than those RT's there's really nothing wrong with it that I know of.
I had a paragraph written in my last post but I guess I lost it somehow.. basically I was just saying that I understand why people get upset on both sides in this game. Players have fallen in love with the game, and as so often happens many of then feel the need to defend the game from the people making it. Maybe they perceive some of the decisions the devs are making to be incorrect, or silly. A lot of it I think comes from many of us not really knowing what we're talking about when it comes to game development. Like the map names thing.. that just sounds ridiculous to me. But I don't know anything about how games are made so maybe that's a fairly common limitation in game engines? I don't know.
Point being, both sides are getting offended when really neither should be. The devs should understand that when people come to the forums and bash the game it's often because they just had a frustrating experience with it, and the players need to understand that the devs are trying.
Conclusion: too much theory, not enough testing, if everyone who reads this thread gets their teams to scrim on this map for the next few days that should be quite a few games
While we are on the topic, are we all totally against reexamining docking since its been changed quite a bit now...(thread derailed
Atrox tested out the new docking with 156 as well, and I've had the pleasure of playing on it several times. I think it's pretty solid for the most part. Don't know how i feel about either team spawning in locker rooms, but I've always liked docking.
Thats exactly what I said. There's no reason to be a complete and total dick about it, which you are being at this point. The versions of Refinery before release you never played, or saw, so I suggest that you shut up regarding that. All I want is people to give descent a chance, and you seem to be against that for some reason which I cannot understand, nor do I think your opinion even has any relevance in this discussion anymore. I think you should drop the shit attitude and learn a little humility and respect, because your knowledge about this game is far from complete, and it really shows at this point.
ENSL could have held the events early instead of a custom map cup, the were just as aware as everyone else the patch was coming at the end of February and should have planned better.
This is simply not true and a very unfair statement towards ENSL admins. When the content patch was first announced(when we were doing our planning), it was scheduled to be early-mid febuary. We had no clue it would be delayed until the end of febuary, just two days before the cup. Furthermore, we didn't even expect to have the invitational cup until after we planned the custom map cup and season 2. And we had to squeeze the invitational cup into the short timeframe we had left with no contests(custom map cup and season 2).
As for the topic, the map definitely seems like it got great potential to be a competetive map. It got a good size, genious geometry and a great layout. But as stated in this thread the timeframe for the decision is very narrow which have caused alot of "No" votes for the map. I believe that it is not a good decision to rush a completely new map into the ENSL seasons, no one wants major upsets because of some possible problems a map can have. I agree that all the maps have problems but there is this magic line where it's either generally accepted as a good map to compete on or not. Neither UWE or Jonacrab should be offended by this, but the response we're getting is that it should wait for season 3 just because it is as new as it is. That does NOT mean that the map is not viable for competetive play. Season 3 will be around August/September, so it's not even that far off. But as blind says, we haven't decided anything about descent and season 2 yet.
Thats exactly what I said. There's no reason to be a complete and total dick about it, which you are being at this point. The versions of Refinery before release you never played, or saw, so I suggest that you shut up regarding that. All I want is people to give descent a chance, and you seem to be against that for some reason which I cannot understand, nor do I think your opinion even has any relevance in this discussion anymore. I think you should drop the shit attitude and learn a little humility and respect, because your knowledge about this game is far from complete, and it really shows at this point.
I wont give you the response you want, but I do want your definition of humility, as far as respect goes PLEASE go find a post where I said descent is bad, or made fun of it or even criticized it. All I said was that it is largely untested and may have balance issues that wont be found until the masses play on it more. You should back up your opinions of me with some evidence.
I think Descent is a good map. There are justified complaints about it, but they're relatively easy fixes. You have to look at how it plays and feels for the competitive players. And on these metrics, it is nothing like Refinery or Mineshaft.
People should step back for a second and remember what Tram and Summit used to look like. Remember when Atrium RT was snipable from outside the room? Or remember when the sub RT was in LOS from maintenance access? How about when flight control RT didn't have the boxes or any cover down the entire comp lab entrance? Summit had problems very similar to what I'm seeing brought up in this thread. They were continually fixed and tweaked by Mendasp until we have the most balanced Summit that has ever existed. The same can happen for Descent and it shouldn't be written off immediately.
I like the idea of adding Descent in to perhaps the 3rd and 4th week of play, potentially leaving it out of the semi/finals or adding it in there as well depending on how the earlier weeks go.
Your remarks on descent are not what I took issue with, more your remarks about the map testers and refinery, which no one here suggested for S2, nor did it have ANY relevance to the original topic of descent.
All people want is the map to have a fair chance, which is what it deserves. All the maps had issues in the beginning, I dont think anyone needs to be reminded about what tram has gone through to get where it is, and veil is by no means a perfect map (needs more work than descent IMO).
Maybe this thread can continue on about the original topic now that people seemed to have found their heads.
i don't know anything about how descent plays or the internals of NS2 mapping (which UWE is responsible for...)
i'm just cautioning against relying on UWE to fix things correctly or in a timely manner. people don't have faith in them, and they seem out of touch with the actual gameplay & players
I would rather see this map included in season 3, but also that teams started playing it straight away to learn the maps well, and to squash out bugs and exploits. The problem is that if this map isn't included in season 2 I could think that a lot of teams wouldn't want to start playing it. Basically it all boils down to how fast problems can be solved I guess. By looks alone, I would rather have descent than any of the other custom maps. Except Honorguard of course.
I can sign up on this. I've had way to little playtime on this map to really give it a chance. As swalk says, there's no need to rush maps to the season 2. If devs force this map to the finals in cologne, there will be more time for the map to be further fixed up until then. The map looks promising but I don't feel like we should rush it in - why should we?
I think we all can agree that it would be super fun to have more maps in ENSL, but there is no rush. I agree with wiry and swalk on this one. Let's play on the map until S03 to give feedback and statistics so the map can be refined and we all feel comfortable with it.
More thoughts:
The rings above Gravity Control need to be made commander-invisible. They get in the way of dropping meds and other things in that area.
I think teams should give this map a real chance. The current competitive maps we have now started with big issues and they only got weeded out because they were played regulary and players were giving feedback. If the offical maps are not given a chance to be played in nsl teams won't even both playing them, meaning the issues won't get fixed. I mean pipeline in veil still has big issues but teams accept it!
I know the mapper is willing to work with the competitive community to get this map working. Maybe we might have to use crosspawn mod or restrict the spawn points to keep it balanced for now but getting it played is the most important part. Its ok to have few unbalances in the early seassons, the competitive community needs new maps and its not going to happen if new maps are not given a chance. I know the community wants more maps to be played, its time to stop whining about few issues and lets make it happen! Give constructive and good feedback so it will be ready.
I would like to see this map in season 2 and my team is willing to play on it.
If any teams are willing to organize a pcw on it please contact me.
I'm hoping for more of those kind of moments, because they help the game feeling fresh, instead of the same old stuff we see on every other map.
Exactly!
I'm not a comp-player. So my view can seem egoistic. And I'm sure the comp players will not agree with me.But I want to give my opinion to this anyway.
I liked to watch NS2 comp matches very much. But since the last month it just got boring. It's the same 3 maps with the overall same 2 tactics every time. The only change is the individual outcome of the fights between the marines and aliens on the ground.
I can understand, that some of the comp players have invested much work into this game to train the existing maps and default-tactics. And that they don't want to work again because of new maps or gameplay changes. But you know what? If there is no change, the comp-scene will die anyway and than all your work is worthless. First the viewers will go away. Than the events. And when you are stuck with friendly scrims and little private leagues, even you will stop playing.
So please, overcome this "change is bad"-attitude and try to accept that competitive play is not only "who trains harder is better" but also "who has better ideas is better".
I believe that if we wait until season 3, then for the most part people will not bother to play. I think that if we put it at the end of the season 2 map rotation as suggested, thats enough time for people to get used to it, and hopefully also enough time for an NSL version to come out with any glaring issues fixed (spawn restrictions, boxes to stop rt abuse are easy issues).
I agree from a viewer perspective new maps are desperately needed.
Making NSL versions of the maps takes me (only for the first time) about 2-3 hours per map, afterwards it's an easy C&P every new version, so I can get that done pretty quickly.
And making the spawn restrictions (if necessary) takes less than 1 minute...
+ All your other posts that I feel are largely inconsiderate and unintelligent.
You should have seen it before we got to it. Put up or shut up.
Even the new Refinery has slowly gotten better because of Map PT input. I don't see why you can blame us. And docking has gotten a ton better.. in addition to many other maps. If you feel like we aren't doing a good job - defer to above. Put up or shut up.
That said, /endofftopicreply.
I'd like to see Descent continue to improve and play in S2. It would be nice to have another map.
It's negative feedback, coming from paying customers. Are we supposed to be happy that the map has problems?
[…]
This is a product being bought and sold, and people really need to stop taking it so personally when people have harsh words about it. You have to remember, these are people who paid for this game. It's not like we got it for free.
Funny that you pull the money argument, because last time I checked the Gorgeous Update was completely free.
It's additional free content, it was nowhere on the screen when you bought the game, so stop being an entitled brat about it because it was never part of the initial deal and you bought the game anyway.
If you bought the game during the Gorgeous Update Sale, you might have had some expectation at best about how things would play out on the map, but if your expectations are not fulfilled for whatever reason then that is entirely your problem and not the dev's. Besides that you had a 50% discount on it then anyway.
There are also other "paying" (though I don't see myself paying anything anywhere after my initial purchase, so that wording is not even correct) customers who might be perfectly happy with the way the map plays out now. They could theoretically be pissed about the map being changed as well. You see: can't satisfy everyone anyway, so when you say "paying customers" you are only referring to your opinion anyway.
Seriously, it just gets me every time if people pay 20 bucks for an awesome game that entertains them for hundred of hours and then still have the nerves to complain like some entitled child about free stuff because they seem to think that the initial investment gives them any right to dictate the developers what to do in future updates.
I like the map, it's attractive and that always helps draw in new players. We have a shortage of maps and players interested in all levels of comp play. This seems to improve both situations. It took a couple of days to get a whole bunch of feedback, I don't think this needs to be a long drawn-out process.
Its fairly obvious map testers and uwe fanboys want descent in, and others are split with some loving and some hating. Just because you feel a map is great, balanced, and ready it might not be *cough refinery cough*.
I'm more interested in having it in as a comp player than a playtester. I've played hundreds of competitive rounds on summit, tram, and veil to the point where I get bored even watching other teams scrim on them. The comp map rotation desperately needs some variety and while icarus and jambi (and triad, but I think the winds are not blowing in its favor) are a good start, descent would be a valuable addition.
It's negative feedback, coming from paying customers. Are we supposed to be happy that the map has problems?
[…]
This is a product being bought and sold, and people really need to stop taking it so personally when people have harsh words about it. You have to remember, these are people who paid for this game. It's not like we got it for free.
Funny that you pull the money argument, because last time I checked the Gorgeous Update was completely free.
It's additional free content, it was nowhere on the screen when you bought the game, so stop being an entitled brat about it because it was never part of the initial deal and you bought the game anyway.
If you bought the game during the Gorgeous Update Sale, you might have had some expectation at best about how things would play out on the map, but if your expectations are not fulfilled for whatever reason then that is entirely your problem and not the dev's. Besides that you had a 50% discount on it then anyway.
There are also other "paying" (though I don't see myself paying anything anywhere after my initial purchase, so that wording is not even correct) customers who might be perfectly happy with the way the map plays out now. They could theoretically be pissed about the map being changed as well. You see: can't satisfy everyone anyway, so when you say "paying customers" you are only referring to your opinion anyway.
Seriously, it just gets me every time if people pay 20 bucks for an awesome game that entertains them for hundred of hours and then still have the nerves to complain like some entitled child about free stuff because they seem to think that the initial investment gives them any right to dictate the developers what to do in future updates.
So crushak, if the map was free how was the production of it paid for?
I bought the game for $30 or $35 back in july of 2011. I'm an entitled child because I think that I have the right to criticize something I paid for? Gorgeous was not a free update. If they aren't charging for it now, they already charged you for it before. It barely has enough content in it to even be considered an expansion pack.. it's one map, one new weapon, and 2 utility items for the gorge.
If you want to make a big deal about it being free, why don't we compare it to some paid DLC? For example, your typical $15 Bf3 DLC comes with 10 or so new weapons, 4 maps, 3 vehicles, and usually a new game mode or two. In comparison, this free gorgeous update looks a lot more like the PATCH that it is. How much do you feel they should've charged you for the expansion then? If I put that much money in an envelope and mail it to san francisco does that make my opinion more valid?
Don't get me wrong, I love that they're continuing to support and update their game. And I will continue to give them business and to refer my friends because of it. But to treat them like they're performing some unprecedented act of generosity is ridiculous. Especially when you consider the fact that the game was and is fairly buggy.
I also don't know if you even read the OP of the thread, or any of my posts afterwards, where I explicitly say that the only problem I have with the map is RT placement. I used civil language and have attempted to explain what I think about the negative criticism this game gets. Or when I posted a video that very calmy does a flyby of some could-be-problem spots. Where I said that the players need to understand that the devs are trying, and they need to understand that many of us are frustrated.
So tell me where I'm wrong? Is this not a product being bought and sold? Did we not all pay for it? What exactly is it that you think I feel entitled to?
Somewhere in the thread, it was said that "Skulk movement changes" are not fair game, like it wasn't UWE that changed the skulk movement or something. The ENSL admins were told to plan better, like they were supposed to have the foresight that UWE would introduce a movement bug right before season 2 of ENSL begins. How were they supposed to know? How is the bug anyone's fault except for UWE's?
Anyways: Lets get this back on topic. If the thread is derailed any further I'll just ask a mod to lock it because this obviously isn't going the way it was supposed to.
Do we really need the comments about how no one has faith in UWE and we're out of touch with the game and players, etc. etc. in this thread? We are coming to you in good faith, saying we want to make these maps work for competitive play, we are willing to make changes to them to make it happen (and we've already done so), and we want to hear constructive feedback. Taking such a standoffish, combative tone does not help with the goals of the competitive scene, which I assume is seeing the maps and gameplay for NS2 improve and to get new content to make the game more varied and interesting.
It also is unfortunate to see comments disparaging of the work the map testers have been doing. The amount of time they have put in to test these maps and to provide us with useful, constructive, and concise feedback is impressive, and is the reason why Descent and the revised Docking are even in the running for inclusion in NSL. It is far more of a service to the competitive scene to have players willing to put in this kind of effort to further the game, then having those who merely dismiss a map out of hand, with little to no helpful feedback.
More thoughts:
The rings above Gravity Control need to be made commander-invisible. They get in the way of dropping meds and other things in that area.
Yes, this is a known issue, before we shipped the map, but we were hoping to get a programming solution in for it. It should be an easy fix on the programming side, once we've gotten the hotfix patch out, but if not, there is another solution to fix it, that won't be too much effort to do.
why is everyone posting stuff like "why isnt this map going competetive" "why doesnt ensl want the map" and dont get me even started about the mapvote on our page.
Blind already said this but let me repeat it. there was ZERO admin discussion (and not many comp matches [not counting PT {no offense} ] ) about this map yet, but some people think its already end of the world ...
we are aware that playing the same 3 maps is boring and will do everything we can to increase the mappool
Comments
The mappers have no control over this, the room names are centered automatically based on the area powergrid and there is no way to manually place location names on the minimap.
But don't mind me... continue ignorantly bashing the mappers and UWE for making an effort.
I think we all just want a map that's decently balanced and we don't know yet with descent (playtime lacking). So the obvious solution is to not play it in s2, let teams scrim on it, hold a night cup maybe, throw it in a tourney and get feedback, maybe even slot it into S2 halfway.
I hate to bring up refinery but look at the unbalanced mess it was and is and imagine if it was the map being added, it 'tested' fine, played terribly on release.
How the fuck are we supposed to know that there is no way to manual place location names? Not only is that something very few of us are familiar with, that's something that sounds completely ridiculous to most people. Built in limitations on placing names on a minimap?
This is a product being bought and sold, and people really need to stop taking it so personally when people have harsh words about it. You have to remember, these are people who paid for this game. It's not like we got it for free.
That said: I don't find most of the things that biz brought up to be huge issues. The only problems I have with the map are these rt locations, which I'm reposting because the last link is on the bottom of the first page and I don't want it to not be seen. The launch control RT snipe is probably not very practical to pull off and isn't really that big of a deal in the long run, but the monorail one is pretty brutal. If spawns were locked to drone bay and fabrication everything would probably be fine, but if aliens get mono and marines get drone bay it's pretty much GG aliens. Maybe it could end up like pipe spawn where typically people do a fast second hive, but idk. It seems like all you would have to do is make the thing in the middle of monorail that blocks the RT a little bit wider, and marines would be forced to actually come into the room to shoot it.
And no one is claiming the map is perfect, it's just the tone some people take when giving criticism seems unnecessarily harsh. The responsibility of facilitating new competitive maps should not fall 100% on UWEs shoulders, there needs to be some sort of effort put forth by the competitive community too, in terms of playing the maps in smaller cups or scrims or whatever and giving feedback to get maps into a state where they can perhaps be added to the competitive map list. As opposed to refusing to play the maps because they are "bad", and then we're stuck with the same 3 maps season after season.
So, yes of course the majority of the map testers want to push for it to be in s2, we want to see more maps improved and ultimately viable for tournament play- and having them included in smaller cups/tourneys/qualifiers/whatever is one of the best ways to do that.
I had a paragraph written in my last post but I guess I lost it somehow.. basically I was just saying that I understand why people get upset on both sides in this game. Players have fallen in love with the game, and as so often happens many of then feel the need to defend the game from the people making it. Maybe they perceive some of the decisions the devs are making to be incorrect, or silly. A lot of it I think comes from many of us not really knowing what we're talking about when it comes to game development. Like the map names thing.. that just sounds ridiculous to me. But I don't know anything about how games are made so maybe that's a fairly common limitation in game engines? I don't know.
Point being, both sides are getting offended when really neither should be. The devs should understand that when people come to the forums and bash the game it's often because they just had a frustrating experience with it, and the players need to understand that the devs are trying.
While we are on the topic, are we all totally against reexamining docking since its been changed quite a bit now...(thread derailed
As for the topic, the map definitely seems like it got great potential to be a competetive map. It got a good size, genious geometry and a great layout. But as stated in this thread the timeframe for the decision is very narrow which have caused alot of "No" votes for the map. I believe that it is not a good decision to rush a completely new map into the ENSL seasons, no one wants major upsets because of some possible problems a map can have. I agree that all the maps have problems but there is this magic line where it's either generally accepted as a good map to compete on or not. Neither UWE or Jonacrab should be offended by this, but the response we're getting is that it should wait for season 3 just because it is as new as it is. That does NOT mean that the map is not viable for competetive play. Season 3 will be around August/September, so it's not even that far off. But as blind says, we haven't decided anything about descent and season 2 yet.
I wont give you the response you want, but I do want your definition of humility, as far as respect goes PLEASE go find a post where I said descent is bad, or made fun of it or even criticized it. All I said was that it is largely untested and may have balance issues that wont be found until the masses play on it more. You should back up your opinions of me with some evidence.
Oh and I saw refinery pre release btw.
People should step back for a second and remember what Tram and Summit used to look like. Remember when Atrium RT was snipable from outside the room? Or remember when the sub RT was in LOS from maintenance access? How about when flight control RT didn't have the boxes or any cover down the entire comp lab entrance? Summit had problems very similar to what I'm seeing brought up in this thread. They were continually fixed and tweaked by Mendasp until we have the most balanced Summit that has ever existed. The same can happen for Descent and it shouldn't be written off immediately.
I like the idea of adding Descent in to perhaps the 3rd and 4th week of play, potentially leaving it out of the semi/finals or adding it in there as well depending on how the earlier weeks go.
All people want is the map to have a fair chance, which is what it deserves. All the maps had issues in the beginning, I dont think anyone needs to be reminded about what tram has gone through to get where it is, and veil is by no means a perfect map (needs more work than descent IMO).
Maybe this thread can continue on about the original topic now that people seemed to have found their heads.
i'm just cautioning against relying on UWE to fix things correctly or in a timely manner. people don't have faith in them, and they seem out of touch with the actual gameplay & players
I can sign up on this. I've had way to little playtime on this map to really give it a chance. As swalk says, there's no need to rush maps to the season 2. If devs force this map to the finals in cologne, there will be more time for the map to be further fixed up until then. The map looks promising but I don't feel like we should rush it in - why should we?
I think we all can agree that it would be super fun to have more maps in ENSL, but there is no rush. I agree with wiry and swalk on this one. Let's play on the map until S03 to give feedback and statistics so the map can be refined and we all feel comfortable with it.
The rings above Gravity Control need to be made commander-invisible. They get in the way of dropping meds and other things in that area.
I know the mapper is willing to work with the competitive community to get this map working. Maybe we might have to use crosspawn mod or restrict the spawn points to keep it balanced for now but getting it played is the most important part. Its ok to have few unbalances in the early seassons, the competitive community needs new maps and its not going to happen if new maps are not given a chance. I know the community wants more maps to be played, its time to stop whining about few issues and lets make it happen! Give constructive and good feedback so it will be ready.
I would like to see this map in season 2 and my team is willing to play on it.
If any teams are willing to organize a pcw on it please contact me.
Exactly!
I'm not a comp-player. So my view can seem egoistic. And I'm sure the comp players will not agree with me.But I want to give my opinion to this anyway.
I liked to watch NS2 comp matches very much. But since the last month it just got boring. It's the same 3 maps with the overall same 2 tactics every time. The only change is the individual outcome of the fights between the marines and aliens on the ground.
I can understand, that some of the comp players have invested much work into this game to train the existing maps and default-tactics. And that they don't want to work again because of new maps or gameplay changes. But you know what? If there is no change, the comp-scene will die anyway and than all your work is worthless. First the viewers will go away. Than the events. And when you are stuck with friendly scrims and little private leagues, even you will stop playing.
So please, overcome this "change is bad"-attitude and try to accept that competitive play is not only "who trains harder is better" but also "who has better ideas is better".
I agree from a viewer perspective new maps are desperately needed.
And making the spawn restrictions (if necessary) takes less than 1 minute...
^ Lack of respect like Dragon said.
+ All your other posts that I feel are largely inconsiderate and unintelligent.
You should have seen it before we got to it. Put up or shut up.
Even the new Refinery has slowly gotten better because of Map PT input. I don't see why you can blame us. And docking has gotten a ton better.. in addition to many other maps. If you feel like we aren't doing a good job - defer to above. Put up or shut up.
That said, /endofftopicreply.
I'd like to see Descent continue to improve and play in S2. It would be nice to have another map.
Funny that you pull the money argument, because last time I checked the Gorgeous Update was completely free.
It's additional free content, it was nowhere on the screen when you bought the game, so stop being an entitled brat about it because it was never part of the initial deal and you bought the game anyway.
If you bought the game during the Gorgeous Update Sale, you might have had some expectation at best about how things would play out on the map, but if your expectations are not fulfilled for whatever reason then that is entirely your problem and not the dev's. Besides that you had a 50% discount on it then anyway.
There are also other "paying" (though I don't see myself paying anything anywhere after my initial purchase, so that wording is not even correct) customers who might be perfectly happy with the way the map plays out now. They could theoretically be pissed about the map being changed as well. You see: can't satisfy everyone anyway, so when you say "paying customers" you are only referring to your opinion anyway.
Seriously, it just gets me every time if people pay 20 bucks for an awesome game that entertains them for hundred of hours and then still have the nerves to complain like some entitled child about free stuff because they seem to think that the initial investment gives them any right to dictate the developers what to do in future updates.
and im sure jonacrab will apreciate it too.
In what way are they unintelligent? Refinery is bad - truth. Descent is unproven/unknown - truth. Point me in the direction I'm wrong.
And I've seen the process Locklear, its pretty bad, and missing bad rt drops and stuff is hardly rude to point out. But oh noes bm and stuff.
So crushak, if the map was free how was the production of it paid for?
I bought the game for $30 or $35 back in july of 2011. I'm an entitled child because I think that I have the right to criticize something I paid for? Gorgeous was not a free update. If they aren't charging for it now, they already charged you for it before. It barely has enough content in it to even be considered an expansion pack.. it's one map, one new weapon, and 2 utility items for the gorge.
If you want to make a big deal about it being free, why don't we compare it to some paid DLC? For example, your typical $15 Bf3 DLC comes with 10 or so new weapons, 4 maps, 3 vehicles, and usually a new game mode or two. In comparison, this free gorgeous update looks a lot more like the PATCH that it is. How much do you feel they should've charged you for the expansion then? If I put that much money in an envelope and mail it to san francisco does that make my opinion more valid?
Don't get me wrong, I love that they're continuing to support and update their game. And I will continue to give them business and to refer my friends because of it. But to treat them like they're performing some unprecedented act of generosity is ridiculous. Especially when you consider the fact that the game was and is fairly buggy.
I also don't know if you even read the OP of the thread, or any of my posts afterwards, where I explicitly say that the only problem I have with the map is RT placement. I used civil language and have attempted to explain what I think about the negative criticism this game gets. Or when I posted a video that very calmy does a flyby of some could-be-problem spots. Where I said that the players need to understand that the devs are trying, and they need to understand that many of us are frustrated.
So tell me where I'm wrong? Is this not a product being bought and sold? Did we not all pay for it? What exactly is it that you think I feel entitled to?
Somewhere in the thread, it was said that "Skulk movement changes" are not fair game, like it wasn't UWE that changed the skulk movement or something. The ENSL admins were told to plan better, like they were supposed to have the foresight that UWE would introduce a movement bug right before season 2 of ENSL begins. How were they supposed to know? How is the bug anyone's fault except for UWE's?
Anyways: Lets get this back on topic. If the thread is derailed any further I'll just ask a mod to lock it because this obviously isn't going the way it was supposed to.
It also is unfortunate to see comments disparaging of the work the map testers have been doing. The amount of time they have put in to test these maps and to provide us with useful, constructive, and concise feedback is impressive, and is the reason why Descent and the revised Docking are even in the running for inclusion in NSL. It is far more of a service to the competitive scene to have players willing to put in this kind of effort to further the game, then having those who merely dismiss a map out of hand, with little to no helpful feedback.
Yes, this is a known issue, before we shipped the map, but we were hoping to get a programming solution in for it. It should be an easy fix on the programming side, once we've gotten the hotfix patch out, but if not, there is another solution to fix it, that won't be too much effort to do.
Blind already said this but let me repeat it. there was ZERO admin discussion (and not many comp matches [not counting PT {no offense} ] ) about this map yet, but some people think its already end of the world ...
we are aware that playing the same 3 maps is boring and will do everything we can to increase the mappool