SeeVee - I think the difference is that post-Gorgeous, we're seeing marines do that faster than aliens could ever go Onos due to 2-3 things:
1) Marines are CRUSHING skulks which is leading to them holding way more RTs than aliens, so more res and Pres.
2) Rail gun exos are 50 Pres, not 75 like Onos
and a distant #3) Since skulks are being crushed, aliens need to spend Pres faster to evolve to gorges and lerks. Which leads to the not having Pres to spend on Onos.
Point #3 is a little... iffy. But I am seeing #1/2 being a problem right now. I keep reading players saying that skulk players will need to learn to play differently. I hope that is the case, and that this is just a mindset shift for the alien team. But so far it's just brutal.
Pre-Gorgeous my mindset as a skulk was to harrass, and that is usually something you can accomplish alone. Sneak behind lines, grab an RT or ambush an unsuspecting marine. Post-Gorgeous it seems like that's not viable any more, that skulks need to move in packs similar to marines and need to hold the front line more often.. My problem there is that the marines were always a "take and hold" type of group whereas the aliens were about mobility. It's a huge adjustment if aliens aren't supposed to be about mobility anymore.
Since the update games seem to end with 13,000 exo suits coming and wrecking the aliens. I haven't seen an alien win in a while however NS2 stats seems to show that aliens are winning even over the last two days 60 - 40. I don' think that's right.
every game i've played since the update has been fair. yeah marines are seemingly winning more than before, but EVERY GAME with moderately even skilled teams has been very close - perfectly split map.
yeah there have been some stinky games... like where an alien hive gets attacked and they end up turtling for the entire game; allowing marines to take the rest of the map with no opposition. the same can happen for marines if you have bad strategy.
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In the game in which the entire alien team goes gorge, gets tunnels first, and spams babblers? Yeah, those don't tend to end very well. Other than that... no, not really, although I've probably played only about a dozen or so rounds in since the patch came out and that's an awfully limited sample size. Overall people are figuring out some great uses and timings for gorge tunnels rather quickly and I'm especially impressed at how fast some of the more skilled marines out there are getting a handle on railgun exos.
Pre-Gorgeous my mindset as a skulk was to harrass, and that is usually something you can accomplish alone. Sneak behind lines, grab an RT or ambush an unsuspecting marine. Post-Gorgeous it seems like that's not viable any more, that skulks need to move in packs similar to marines and need to hold the front line more often.. My problem there is that the marines were always a "take and hold" type of group whereas the aliens were about mobility. It's a huge adjustment if aliens aren't supposed to be about mobility anymore.
How in the world do the Gorgeous changes affect the stuff you used to do? Skulks did not receive any nerfs to their sneak walk ability, or their movement speed and they can still fit in all of the vents they used to fit in, and their bite damage was not changed. You can still sneak behind lines and kill RTs. You can still hide above a doorway and ambush an unsuspecting marine, if you can get one full bite in you're already well on the way to finishing him off. Skulks needing to move in packs similar to marines isn't something new, and holding the front line more often isn't something new either.
Basically, to put it bluntly, alien easy mode has been turned OFF. What you're seeing and experiencing are withdrawal symptoms.
Aliens STILL have a huge advantage in terms of harassment.
- as mentioned, you can still sneak walk
- you can still fit in vents
- movement speed is unchanged
- bite damage is unchanged
Skulks were always designed around ambush tactics, hiding above doorways, in vents and such. They have 70h/10a, just NINE bullets should be able to kill one.
Also, don't know if you even played 239 for as long as some people have, but it was very, VERY alien sided. It was not uncommon to see aliens taking over 80% of the map and holding it against most marine attempts to take ground.
If marines are dominating skulks then that's the culprit, there's no need to continue the balance discussion further than that. However it's too early to call whether or not that's truly the case especially once people have grown accustomed to the changes. It's also very important that you disregard games in which alien players are experimenting with Gorge abilities(i.e. most games). Simply having one or two too many Gorges goofing off will completely cripple the team in the early game.
@ Schupac, the game should have both teams being equally mobile and defensive. one skulk should not be able to take an RT easy just as it is for marines. Each team should have a true equal counter but use perhaps slightly different tactics. I personally believe aliens should have to build things just as marines do for a truly balanced game. If marines have to move in packs to be a bit more effective then aliens should too.
Reading my chat logs from the server last night people were praising this game from both sides. When a game goes approx and hour and half then I'd say the game is getting to where it needs to be even more now than ever.
Check out lines 4 and 6 of the chat made by an alien.
@ Schupac, the game should have both teams being equally mobile and defensive. one skulk should not be able to take an RT easy just as it is for marines. Each team should have a true equal counter but use perhaps slightly different tactics. I personally believe aliens should have to build things just as marines do for a truly balanced game. If marines have to move in packs to be a bit more effective then aliens should too.
Reading my chat logs from the server last night people were praising this game from both sides. When a game goes approx and hour and half then I'd say the game is getting to where it needs to be even more now than ever.
Check out lines 4 and 6 of the chat made by an alien.
Where the HELL is everyone seeing "everyone going gorge and screwing with tunnels"?
I saw that two or three times last night, but we all quickly realized how niche they are to particular situations, and even when we had people screwing with them, it was one or two on the team, not THE WHOLE TEAM like I see being constantly exaggerated.
Aliens aren't losing matches because they're being inept and distracted by new toys, they're losing matches because skulks control like bricks now. You can't even outrun a marine now. Marines outrun skulks. Jetpacks? Forget about it, you're toast unless you're a lerk or a fade.
This is the new balance, and the entrenched marine players are going to keep fighting for it so long as they can keep locking down 8:1 KDR and exo rushes at 6 minutes, because they feel alien players somehow "deserve" it for the balance issues they've dealt with in the past.
Kei, Every game I played yesterday (and I played from patch time till about 2 am) had approximately 100% more gorges than it needed to. That's one of the main reasons aliens are losing right now.
Where the HELL is everyone seeing "everyone going gorge and screwing with tunnels"?
I'll agree this isn't the only issue, but I don't think its crazy to expect people want to play with the newest features in the game first (same thing largely happened with the release of onos and exos). Once the novelty wears off, we'll see a much more reasonable number of gorges and railguns.
I don't know, which alien movies marine players watch, but in my movies aliens are able to slaughter humans.no, seriously, if a maybe is supposed to be able to kill 2 skulks, then the spawn rate would be shorter for aliens.
And if every class of the aliens is made to surprise lone wandering marines, then how are we supposed to kill a group of them?
None, if it wasn't for the visual changes and if you didn't tell me I wouldn't have known there was a new patch, aliens still rolling every game easily in AusNS and certainly winning plenty the marines should have been able to close out.
Seemed that a lot of people who haven't played much in the last 2 months came back to NS2 yesterday. They weren't rookies, but they were not too much more advanced than them either. At one point myself and another skulk took out 6 marines in water pumps that were humping an armoury their com had dropped there in the first 3 minutes. (even though all we had in repair was one gorge and a harvester)
But I think its still too early to judge balance. Hell reset the stats on Monday, then record a week of stats to see a more reasonable assessment of this patches balance. This will give everyone a chance to get the must play with the new toys bug out of them.
Every game marines win, and all marines kill equal or more than death, where as if you are lucky to see aliens break even with K/D ratio let alone do 30K 3Deaths likes marines do.
Game is actually borderline broken, unplayable. Really hope they are working late with a hotfix thats coming sooner rather than later.
I don't know, which alien movies marine players watch, but in my movies aliens are able to slaughter humans.no, seriously, if a maybe is supposed to be able to kill 2 skulks, then the spawn rate would be shorter for aliens.
And if every class of the aliens is made to surprise lone wandering marines, then how are we supposed to kill a group of them?
I watch Aliens, you know, the one where a handful of marines kill dozens of aliens and die only for the alien team to die to one angry women with an LMG, GL, flamer combo and a dual-fist exo. Maybe you've been watching Avatar?
Every game marines win, and all marines kill equal or more than death, where as if you are lucky to see aliens break even with K/D ratio let alone do 30K 3Deaths likes marines do.
Game is actually borderline broken, unplayable. Really hope they are working late with a hotfix thats coming sooner rather than later.
Odds are they're going to not do the knee-jerk reaction and more likely wait for a week to gather data before putting out a patch several days later.
Let's not forget the influx of new players the steam offer has bought in- Found it really hard to get a good game tonight because the servers were full of silent greens, mindlessly running around by themselves. Skulks can no longer easily kill a single marine by themself if there is any distance to be closed in the engagement, which is pretty much how the game was originally intended to play I believe.
My experience so far is that the balance has been largely fixed. I've had marine wins and alien wins, with fairly even teams.
Babblers do not work though
It’s not in the change log but I’m finding it much more easy to kill gorges, most times they die in about a clip or 2 of lvl 0 lmg.
Nothing was changed there.
A gorge has 150hp/70ap to start with, or 150/150 with carapace. The rifle does 10 damage per bullet at w0. There's 50 rounds in a clip so 500 damage total. And this is normal damage so every point of armour takes 2 damage.
Effectively, the gorge thus has 290 (150+140) or 450 (150+300) effective hit points. One rifle clip is all it ever took, assuming you hit them.
This may be a good indicator... Look at line 5. I have seen this mentioned elsewhere in these forums in a few places. Once people get used to the new features on the aliens you'll see a change.
I believe marines are winning a little more because they can kill skulks a little better and aliens can't just run in and solo 3 marines like they're use to, so now aliens require a little bit smarter attack and people still play stupid.
Since the update games seem to end with 13,000 exo suits coming and wrecking the aliens. I haven't seen an alien win in a while however NS2 stats seems to show that aliens are winning even over the last two days 60 - 40. I don' think that's right.
Use the filters. Ratio is at 38-62 in favor of the Marines right now. However...
It's only been recording stats since yesterday as far as I know, and Aliens mostly aren't playing 'seriously' because they're trying out their new toys. I've seen nothing but full teams of Gorges since the update.
Edit: Also, the vast majority of games have been played on Descent. I have yet to play on it, but I hear it favors Marines pretty heavily.
I just spent nearly the whole of today playing and growing my ass. I'm starting to think the nerf to skulk movement went a bit too far. Playing against marines who can aim is downright painful. (as in the ones who could fairly well shut down skulks before this patch)
Comments
1) Marines are CRUSHING skulks which is leading to them holding way more RTs than aliens, so more res and Pres.
2) Rail gun exos are 50 Pres, not 75 like Onos
and a distant #3) Since skulks are being crushed, aliens need to spend Pres faster to evolve to gorges and lerks. Which leads to the not having Pres to spend on Onos.
Point #3 is a little... iffy. But I am seeing #1/2 being a problem right now. I keep reading players saying that skulk players will need to learn to play differently. I hope that is the case, and that this is just a mindset shift for the alien team. But so far it's just brutal.
Pre-Gorgeous my mindset as a skulk was to harrass, and that is usually something you can accomplish alone. Sneak behind lines, grab an RT or ambush an unsuspecting marine. Post-Gorgeous it seems like that's not viable any more, that skulks need to move in packs similar to marines and need to hold the front line more often.. My problem there is that the marines were always a "take and hold" type of group whereas the aliens were about mobility. It's a huge adjustment if aliens aren't supposed to be about mobility anymore.
yeah there have been some stinky games... like where an alien hive gets attacked and they end up turtling for the entire game; allowing marines to take the rest of the map with no opposition. the same can happen for marines if you have bad strategy.
How in the world do the Gorgeous changes affect the stuff you used to do? Skulks did not receive any nerfs to their sneak walk ability, or their movement speed and they can still fit in all of the vents they used to fit in, and their bite damage was not changed. You can still sneak behind lines and kill RTs. You can still hide above a doorway and ambush an unsuspecting marine, if you can get one full bite in you're already well on the way to finishing him off. Skulks needing to move in packs similar to marines isn't something new, and holding the front line more often isn't something new either.
Basically, to put it bluntly, alien easy mode has been turned OFF. What you're seeing and experiencing are withdrawal symptoms.
Aliens STILL have a huge advantage in terms of harassment.
- as mentioned, you can still sneak walk
- you can still fit in vents
- movement speed is unchanged
- bite damage is unchanged
Skulks were always designed around ambush tactics, hiding above doorways, in vents and such. They have 70h/10a, just NINE bullets should be able to kill one.
Also, don't know if you even played 239 for as long as some people have, but it was very, VERY alien sided. It was not uncommon to see aliens taking over 80% of the map and holding it against most marine attempts to take ground.
Reading my chat logs from the server last night people were praising this game from both sides. When a game goes approx and hour and half then I'd say the game is getting to where it needs to be even more now than ever.
Check out lines 4 and 6 of the chat made by an alien.
http://gforgrenade.com/showthread.php?268-Patch-240-seems-to-be-better!
that game went to 1hr 25 min.
Need to register to read the image
http://gforgrenade.com/showthread.php?268-Patch-240-seems-to-be-better!
I saw that two or three times last night, but we all quickly realized how niche they are to particular situations, and even when we had people screwing with them, it was one or two on the team, not THE WHOLE TEAM like I see being constantly exaggerated.
Aliens aren't losing matches because they're being inept and distracted by new toys, they're losing matches because skulks control like bricks now. You can't even outrun a marine now. Marines outrun skulks. Jetpacks? Forget about it, you're toast unless you're a lerk or a fade.
This is the new balance, and the entrenched marine players are going to keep fighting for it so long as they can keep locking down 8:1 KDR and exo rushes at 6 minutes, because they feel alien players somehow "deserve" it for the balance issues they've dealt with in the past.
And if every class of the aliens is made to surprise lone wandering marines, then how are we supposed to kill a group of them?
Seemed that a lot of people who haven't played much in the last 2 months came back to NS2 yesterday. They weren't rookies, but they were not too much more advanced than them either. At one point myself and another skulk took out 6 marines in water pumps that were humping an armoury their com had dropped there in the first 3 minutes. (even though all we had in repair was one gorge and a harvester)
But I think its still too early to judge balance. Hell reset the stats on Monday, then record a week of stats to see a more reasonable assessment of this patches balance. This will give everyone a chance to get the must play with the new toys bug out of them.
Every game marines win, and all marines kill equal or more than death, where as if you are lucky to see aliens break even with K/D ratio let alone do 30K 3Deaths likes marines do.
Game is actually borderline broken, unplayable. Really hope they are working late with a hotfix thats coming sooner rather than later.
I watch Aliens, you know, the one where a handful of marines kill dozens of aliens and die only for the alien team to die to one angry women with an LMG, GL, flamer combo and a dual-fist exo. Maybe you've been watching Avatar?
Odds are they're going to not do the knee-jerk reaction and more likely wait for a week to gather data before putting out a patch several days later.
My experience so far is that the balance has been largely fixed. I've had marine wins and alien wins, with fairly even teams.
Babblers do not work though
Nothing was changed there.
A gorge has 150hp/70ap to start with, or 150/150 with carapace. The rifle does 10 damage per bullet at w0. There's 50 rounds in a clip so 500 damage total. And this is normal damage so every point of armour takes 2 damage.
Effectively, the gorge thus has 290 (150+140) or 450 (150+300) effective hit points. One rifle clip is all it ever took, assuming you hit them.
Use the filters. Ratio is at 38-62 in favor of the Marines right now. However...
It's only been recording stats since yesterday as far as I know, and Aliens mostly aren't playing 'seriously' because they're trying out their new toys. I've seen nothing but full teams of Gorges since the update.
Edit: Also, the vast majority of games have been played on Descent. I have yet to play on it, but I hear it favors Marines pretty heavily.