Armories and Armor - Again.
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Join Date: 2012-05-26 Member: 152617Members
Join Date: 2012-05-26 Member: 152617Members
A long time ago, in a NS2 beta far, far away, a change had just been made. A simple change, a small change, but one that would have drastic consequences on the feel of the game for both aliens and marines...
Armories lost their ability to repair armor.
Suddenly, marines could no longer rely on humping the nearest armory to heal their health back to full. Now, they had to do something they had never done before - work together (without the commander yelling at them to do so). Improteau squads began forming on the battlefield as marines adapted to the change, and pubbie game play began becoming far more organized. Marines now routinely traveled in groups of twos and threes to keep themselves safe and at full health, and the welder began seeing a resurgence from a situational tool to an important part of any fireteam (recall this was before exos were introduced). And commanders stopped placing armories in every room, instead realizing that the structure was required only where attacks commonly occured or where marines needed to switch out weapons.
It even had the effect of balancing level 3 armor. What had once simply been a straight upgrade now required teamwork to exploit most efficiently, and allowed aliens to wear down their enemy through sneak attacks instead of relying on all-or-nothing battles to the death.
But it was not to be. Unfortunately, the change had been made at the worst of times - when aliens were already overpowered and easily winning games. This change, while encouraging teamplay among marines in a way almost no other change had before, had unfortunately gimped the marines even further. Despite the opinions of many that the mechanic had been a helpful one indeed, the devs decided to undo the change just to keep the balance. And so armory humping returned, and has remained with us ever since.
TL:DR - I want marines to have to rely on one another again to heal armor. Obviously, there were issues - the marines had a constant Pres sink that the aliens had no counterpart to, and the change weakened marines against an already strong alien team (sound familiar?). But it also strongly encouraged sporadic teamwork among marine grunts, which is something that the game has had trouble with since the beginning, and also allowed aliens to break sieges more easily by forcing marines to play intelligently instead of running to the armory every time their health and armor fell low. Plus the change had many supporters who also felt that it improved the game.
Armories lost their ability to repair armor.
Suddenly, marines could no longer rely on humping the nearest armory to heal their health back to full. Now, they had to do something they had never done before - work together (without the commander yelling at them to do so). Improteau squads began forming on the battlefield as marines adapted to the change, and pubbie game play began becoming far more organized. Marines now routinely traveled in groups of twos and threes to keep themselves safe and at full health, and the welder began seeing a resurgence from a situational tool to an important part of any fireteam (recall this was before exos were introduced). And commanders stopped placing armories in every room, instead realizing that the structure was required only where attacks commonly occured or where marines needed to switch out weapons.
It even had the effect of balancing level 3 armor. What had once simply been a straight upgrade now required teamwork to exploit most efficiently, and allowed aliens to wear down their enemy through sneak attacks instead of relying on all-or-nothing battles to the death.
But it was not to be. Unfortunately, the change had been made at the worst of times - when aliens were already overpowered and easily winning games. This change, while encouraging teamplay among marines in a way almost no other change had before, had unfortunately gimped the marines even further. Despite the opinions of many that the mechanic had been a helpful one indeed, the devs decided to undo the change just to keep the balance. And so armory humping returned, and has remained with us ever since.
TL:DR - I want marines to have to rely on one another again to heal armor. Obviously, there were issues - the marines had a constant Pres sink that the aliens had no counterpart to, and the change weakened marines against an already strong alien team (sound familiar?). But it also strongly encouraged sporadic teamwork among marine grunts, which is something that the game has had trouble with since the beginning, and also allowed aliens to break sieges more easily by forcing marines to play intelligently instead of running to the armory every time their health and armor fell low. Plus the change had many supporters who also felt that it improved the game.
Comments
(And future changes or not, I would encourge any member of the community to continue to vigorously communicate the benafits of buying a welder)
Folks, it can keep you alive, way more times then you would think. You can even share welders between well cooridinated teammates. Additionally save time otherwise spent running back to your nearest armory.
Also, I wouldn’t like a complete removal, try a slower rate first, or maybe advanced Armories could heal armour still? This helps in the main base if someone is spawn ambushed.
That was the BEST beta patch imo, marines just inherently worked together as soon as they realised that was the only way to get armor back. It serves as an incentive to make marines play the way they are designed to play.
It also allowed aliens to play the way they were meant to (heres lookin at you mr. hit-and-run fade)
The ONLY change i would make is to have welders cost 25 tres to research, then be free on spawn in weapon slot 4 (Keeps the marine ability to axe aliens questions)
In short, (I feel) gameplay is designed around armories not healing armor. New players might moan about not being able to rambo or get a 50:1 KDR alone, but they'll get over it quickly once they realise how much more effective (and fun) it is to play with teamwork, and to be able to hit and run as aliens.
P.S. I feel it would be a fair compromise to allow AA to repair armor.
you would be suprised how far a welder can go even in all the hectic moments or even just a lil bit of downtime when you're far away from any armory lil bit of teamwork and welders can really increase your average lifetime. =]
As for the slower armor healing idea - it wouldn't work. Pub marines won't change their tactics when faced with slower healing, they'll just sit there longer. In fact, the devs implemented an energy system for the armory shortly after welding exclusivity was patched out with this exact idea in mind, and nobody I know saw any changes in player behavior. I'd rather just leave the game as is than put something like that in.
People suggested the advanced armory solution when the armor change was about to be undone, and while I can't say I'm a fan I'd be willing to try it out for a patch or two and see how it works. It would at least alleviate the problem of forward armories making poke attacks against marines meaningless.
If changes had to be done to the welder to make this work, then I'd suggest nerfing it's damage and making it free from the armory, either from the beginning of the game or (if it turns out to be unfair) after an early upgrade. That way, marines could make the choice between acting as a sort of semi-medic for their allies or being able to cut down enemy buildings more easily (and a more powerful back-up weapon).
Edit: Also, thanks for the replies! Keep the discussion going, its a topic that I know many have (or had) an interest in.
So welder makes only sense with an exo around, cause otherwise you're as good as dead anyways. The exo WILL defend you, cause it is dependent on you. Another marine is not.
So if you take away the armor healing from the armory, you're stuck with a lot of marines hesitating to buy a welder. The crunchpoint for the greater good is lacking. What if all marines buy welders, who is shooting? What if everyone is shooting and no one welds? Exos only shoot, there's a role distribution to that. But a welding marine is like a mac with mind, the cost benefit ratio is not entirely given.
The game lacks a system to crush my doubts as playing marine. If I weld, I die easily. If i shoot and not get welded, i die easily. Who gives me the certainty that the cost i put in pays off? If I evolve Fade, I know its MY fault if I fuck up. But if I just wanna weld my buddies and die cause no one watches me it is frustrating. So i go on and run to the armory.
You gotta watch the player psyche running this tiny game. Welding players shouldn't just weld, they should feel important doing it and they should be seen as that as well.
Distribute the roles of welding marines and shooting marines in a more distinctive matter, give em a catalyst and watch as teamwork goes stronger and armories being abandoned.
In fact, you might even say that L4D's gameplay forces you to play socially if you want to make any progress, because several super infected have the ability to completely shut down one of your team mates (think of the Hunter that can pin you down or the Smoker that strangles you or the Charger that smashes you or the Jockey that rides you).
4 out of the 6 super zombies force you to cooperate or it's game over. First for your team mate (or yourself) and then for the egotistical bastards that refuse to help others, because with every team mate killed it gets harder and harder to reach the safe room. A single survivor in L4D is as good as dead.
Making marines self-sufficient when they are in fact the team that relies much more on cooperation and teamplay hurts NS2 in my opinion...
This also ties in with something I've been thinking about for a while which is the lack of distinction between welders and... That nanite gun/thing marines use to build structures. Particularly that [nanite gun] has no name, nor is referenced often/at all in literature, nor are the difference between it and the welder obvious or intuitive.
Solution - when welders are bought, replace the Use key [nanite gun] animation with the welder, OR/AND make the welder selectable from a weapon slot.
Nanite gun is retarded and unloved. The changes suggested by the OP would also link in well with replacing the nanite gun with a welder.
I've got a naff aim, i'm naff at the game. My general rule is: Find someone who's actually good and try to keep that chump alive, so i spend a lot of time welding other people (and acting as a tasty, meat distraction so the people who can shoot can do the dirty work). I think it's insanely fun to be running around a cluttastrophuck with a welder out, and i'd swear it helps. I do think, though, that the marine side is lacking a little in support-role play, so an idea like this might fill-out that role nicely.
It affects the Fade's hit and run assassin play style more though. Every time you go in and retreat, they can potentially negate your damage done, by humping a forward armoury and fixing their armour once more...
I don't think this is a problem. Its not like a welding marine signs his own death warrant.....it takes only a few seconds to weld a marine back to full armor, and then you're back to shooting.
During the patch were this was tested most of my marine experiences went something like this:
Person1:"Why isn't the armory giving me armor?"
Person2: "They changed it so you can only get armor back from welders."
Person1: "Oh, well someone buy a welder and fix me!"
Person3: "I already have one"
**Welds**
The three marines then proceded to move out and protect the one with the welder, remaining at full hp/armor in the field (with some medpack support). This trend then became the norm after a few games, and marines naturally formed squads that are far more resilient than the ones who "dont want to waste pres on welders".
IMO, if welders were a 1 time research (20 tres or something) and were free after that, they would be used much more, and the armory not healing armor would be a non-issue. Not only that, but these squads would form more naturally as players adjusted to protecting their squad mates, and thus marines would naturally have better teamwork.
Also, aliens would play better as they could use thier superior mobility to whittle down the marines, and have it actually WORK. Right now, if you dont get the kill, the risk and damage you took was wasted as long as they have an armory within 10 ft.
The Armory is one of those fixtures that becomes paramount when you're defending a forward outpost so you can siege/take down an Alien encampment. It's almost too useful and I think that getting rid of it would make it very difficult for the Marines to push when they're not around someone who wants to spend the pres on a welder. Imagine a few Gorges spitting bile at you and your foward base and theres nobody with a welder. You're going to die if you cant use the armory.
I don't know if this is a viable solution, but what about giving the welder another use beyond repairing armor and structures? Maybe if they did something akin to an "over charge" where if you weld beyond the maxmimum armor you get a temporary boost that dwindles over time. It would make having a welder in a group something that would come in very handy if ambush were to ever happen, and we would also see people dropping and sharing welders to make use of the bonus.