You should rename your thread title to "Top 10 small but annoying commander bugs.".............. misleading thread title. Actually #1 isn't even a bug... just a matter of preference.
Does that #9 mean that I can't even micro two commander controlled units without having a bit of pause between the actions? Let's say I want to micro 3 drifters separately to impress a Korean or something, does the game allow me to pull that off?
Yea, you can't do something like that try as you might, and has been pissing me off for a while now. While the move command for one unit is being processed or something, you are locked out from selecting another unit. NS2 doesn't seem to be able to handle very fast player inputs, and i show in the vid that you can completely lock yourself out by inputting move/select commands in very fast sequence.
Then there's the delay from when an upgrade or research completes on a structure to when you can do something else on that structure. e.g. a drifter completes, is spawned, the drifter button turns yellow again, but the game code won't allow you to actually build a 2nd drifter untill a second or two later when i presume it finishes doing its checks.
NS2 is marketed as an RTS/FPS. Yet the fundamental RTS responsiveness and UI has been horrible for years while they work on gorge tunnels, railguns, decals, camo shaders. Then to have large portions of the screen block clicking and player input while you market archea and 50k tournaments? I don't mean to say the former are bad things to work on, but these are far from 'small and annoying bugs'.
Man vs forklift is not by any means a 'small annoying' bug either. If you don't think there's anything wrong with marine rock climbing, jumping onto the heads of standing marines and such (both for the rock climber and enemy aliens), i suggest more game experience.
"Actually #1 isn't even a bug... just a matter of preference.
This obviously isn't simply a bug report. If it was a matter of preference, where is the option in the menus? Action on mouse click release in SC, and any RTS game that takes itself seriously for that matter, would be laughed at as a joke.
The click-blocked areas are very annoying. I think they are where your hotkeys and drifter/mac icons appear when in use, only they are always reserved for that use even when you don't have any.
You should rename your thread title to "Top 10 small but annoying commander bugs.".............. misleading thread title. Actually #1 isn't even a bug... just a matter of preference.
what? I've never heard anyone preferring to have any action done on the release of a click (at least where an action is done immediately, as opposed to click and drag, or boxing objects). You shoot a gun when you release the trigger?
NS2 is marketed as an RTS/FPS. Yet the fundamental RTS responsiveness and UI has been horrible for years while they work on gorge tunnels, railguns, decals, camo shaders. Then to have large portions of the screen block clicking and player input while you market archea and 50k tournaments? I don't mean to say the former are bad things to work on, but these are far from 'small and annoying bugs'.
As a long time RTS player, I can certainly sympathize with the bugs and general wonkiness of the comm view. However, since only two out of twelve or more players experience those problems, its understandable that UWE has focused more on the FPS rather than RTS portions of the game.
That being said, that list is a good start on the majorly annoying bugs in the comm interface (I'd add MAC AI logic that prioritizes broken powernodes over players/exos and the lack of tilt/zoom/rotate as other ones that have bugged me).
Does that #9 mean that I can't even micro two commander controlled units without having a bit of pause between the actions? Let's say I want to micro 3 drifters separately to impress a Korean or something, does the game allow me to pull that off?
At least you can play on LAN, so it's still better than sc2.
As a long time RTS player, I can certainly sympathize with the bugs and general wonkiness of the comm view. However, since only two out of twelve or more players experience those problems, its understandable that UWE has focused more on the FPS rather than RTS portions of the game.
Careful with that logic. I get where you're coming from but a 1/6th of the team is still alot, especially considering they're vital for the game to be enjoyable. One of the obvious and major weaknesses of NS1 was the small number of willing commanders (one of the reasons why I opposed the khamm introduction in the first place) so this should be on the radar in a big way if we've learnt anything - so far, I personally think the commanding experience has regressed. We'll have a far better experience all-round if the comm spot is actually a fun privilege rather than a clunky responsibility.
We need the RTS component of the game to be taken very seriously. NS2 has such a unique selling point in the fact that genuine leadership is a component of effective commanding and it would be a real shame for physical limitations to scare away the kinds of players that NS2 desperately needs - especially for the future.
We need the RTS component of the game to be taken very seriously. NS2 has such a unique selling point in the fact that genuine leadership is a component of effective commanding and it would be a real shame for physical limitations to scare away the kinds of players that NS2 desperately needs - especially for the future.
I agree, but it should be noted that the team leader does not necessarily need to be the comm. I've seen and experienced several instances of 'field comms' who do all of the organization, tactics, and strategy of the comm, but outside of the chair.
Also, I don't think it is the bugs/problems with the RTS components that scares players away from the comm, but the expectation of the comm to be the team leader. I have more frustration when commanding due to players not following orders, criticizing various decisions (e.g. backseat comming), or actively working against the team (e.g. griefing, being useless, etc) than I do with droppables on click release rather than press.
This obviously isn't simply a bug report. If it was a matter of preference, where is the option in the menus? Action on mouse click release in SC, and any RTS game that takes itself seriously for that matter, would be laughed at as a joke.
Don't you remember? If you have options like that, that means the dev couldn't make up his mind. Obviously UWE has decided that action on mouse click release is the correct way to go about it and you're making bad decisions, regardless of your intelligence or knowledge on the subject. Do you know what the leading causes of death for humans are?
In his book, Joel Spolsky writes that an option is when a programmer (or a designer) fails to make a decision. Obviously not every option fits this description — in particular options that change "continuously" like resolution, font size, etc. are great for different users — but options that make big changes in functionality typically are unnecessary. Giving the user the ability to tailor their own experience sounds great, but often what you’re really asking them to do is compromise. This probably sounds like an insane and radical concept since it’s quite opposite the current trend in software. But if one way is clearly better than another, why include the option? And if that’s not the case, maybe you should be rethinking the implementation of that particular feature so that it always works great without requiring the user to tweak it.
In the case of the Skulk rotation, it was clear the rotated view made it more difficult to orient yourself, attack enemies and would probably have been nauseating for lots of people.
When confronted with an option, people don’t always make the best decisions for themselves (check the leading causes of death in humans if you don’t believe this one). Some people may have chosen the rotated view option because of the increased immersion and overall awesomeness, despite the clear shortcomings when it comes to game play. They may have become frustrated with the game and instead of enjoying it, would just spend the rest of their days hanging out on our forums and telling us how we ruined the game.
We need the RTS component of the game to be taken very seriously. NS2 has such a unique selling point in the fact that genuine leadership is a component of effective commanding and it would be a real shame for physical limitations to scare away the kinds of players that NS2 desperately needs - especially for the future.
I agree, but it should be noted that the team leader does not necessarily need to be the comm. I've seen and experienced several instances of 'field comms' who do all of the organization, tactics, and strategy of the comm, but outside of the chair.
Also, I don't think it is the bugs/problems with the RTS components that scares players away from the comm, but the expectation of the comm to be the team leader. I have more frustration when commanding due to players not following orders, criticizing various decisions (e.g. backseat comming), or actively working against the team (e.g. griefing, being useful, etc) than I do with droppables on click release rather than press.
Yeah, that's true. I'm not sure how optimal it is but I take your point. I do think the comm is the natural choice for where you want leadership to come from though. He's the only unique unit, aerial view, blah blah...
I also agree that that bugs probably aren't the main factor, although this mostly due to the majority of people not able to get to the level where they're noticeable anyway - the people this will affect most are probably some of the most desirable people. That said, these inconveniences are a considerable factor nonetheless and it is needless frustration. I really hoped that the rts aspect of NS2 was going to improve markedly as I always thought it was the most obvious area for quick and safe improvement. There are so many features/tools that the modern rts has that make them smooth and silky which NS could have replicated and (though I guess i'm now extending my point beyond these annoying bugs/features). I guess, as with everything, it's a time thing?
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited February 2013
My favorite is still being able to jump off of other players who are already in the air themselves. viva la flying onos.
I'm sure these bugs will be fixed sometime after 1.0
I would like to add on lower resolutions the maps will not scroll far enough; so for example in lava, with the drop glitch, I cannot cyst from smelting to transfer. Same with anything as marine com.
They did say they were trying to fix it however, so I am looking forward to that.
I also agree that that bugs probably aren't the main factor, although this mostly due to the majority of people not able to get to the level where they're noticeable anyway - the people this will affect most are probably some of the most desirable people. That said, these inconveniences are a considerable factor nonetheless and it is needless frustration. I really hoped that the rts aspect of NS2 was going to improve markedly as I always thought it was the most obvious area for quick and safe improvement. There are so many features/tools that the modern rts has that make them smooth and silky which NS could have replicated and (though I guess i'm now extending my point beyond these annoying bugs/features). I guess, as with everything, it's a time thing?
I totally agree, as I am one who does notice and am frustrated by them. NS2 micro at an APM above abysmally low is actively thwarted by the types of bugs elodea has recorded. I'll continue to report them when I can, but the priority of many them is low.
However, if I was going to order NS2 comm features by priority, it'd be something like this:
1. Some form of comm tutorial/training system (e.g. traditional scripted RTS tutorial, improvements on the explore mode, bot training servers/1v1 comm mode, etc)
2. Improvements on the comm selection method (e.g. comm vote, comm is still the comm when out of the chair, can resign or be ejected, etc)
3. Better method to give orders/interacting with players (e.g. squads, more useful order system, etc)
4. Improved UI elements (e.g. more effective warnings of structures under attack, better indicators of what structures/upgrades you have lost, etc)
5. More interface features (e.g. zoom/tilt/rotate view, full 1-9 ctrl groups, ability to rebind comm keys, etc)
6. Fixing the myriad of comm bugs (e.g. elodea's list, AI logic, etc)
Also, I don't think it is the bugs/problems with the RTS components that scares players away from the comm, but the expectation of the comm to be the team leader. I have more frustration when commanding due to players not following orders, criticizing various decisions (e.g. backseat comming), or actively working against the team (e.g. griefing, being useless, etc) than I do with droppables on click release rather than press.
I really have to disagree here. I don't think it's understood that UI is incredibly important, especially today when other engines have set commonly accepted standards enjoyed by many gamers. in Dota there is a massive complaint about selection boxes requiring you to box the entire unit vs. SC2 you only need to box half of the unit. this is miniscule in comparison to the massive issues that NS2's interface has, and there are still manycomplaintsonthisalone.
improvements (such as tutorials) I see as a bonus and not a priority, but when a step backwards is taken to other standards (not being able to use a hotkeyed-obs for distress beacon, poor control group support, nano-shielding the floor instead of units), then it it becomes immediately noticeable and is ultimately more frustrating.
8) Definitely is some invisible hard cap NS2 has on group sizing + double click being weird, I've double clicked some games and it has selected all 8 macs across the map and moved them, others it selects the 3 in the room but not 1 near a doorway.
10) Shit me off for so long before I finally figured it out, it's straight up fucked, you can't use box select and expect to move a drifter in between 2-5 aliens, cysts or structures, it'll simply imply your trying to move a structure or an alien and you're an idiot for doing so.
1) I get the feeling it was added for phase gate and never narrowed down to just phase gate, gotta be honest this has helped me a fair bit in occasions where I was gonna drop shit, didn't release for a while listening and decided against it and voided the drop.
3) and 4) are flat out aggravating and insulting from an RTS perspective, hovering your screen with aliens on the left and marines pushing from the right, trying to listen for more aliens or sliding it across and trying to med pack outer areas of the map and it drops nothing, it's really like comm view has this circle in the middle of the screen that you have to line up all your actions as everything to the side/top/bottom gets LoS or ignored. I'd almost like to see a comm mod that puts a transparent overlay or line across the sides/top/bottom of comm view letting people know if you try performing actions on this part of the screen odds are fuck all will happen, center the screen more stop trying to micro no fun allowed.
Comments
Then there's the delay from when an upgrade or research completes on a structure to when you can do something else on that structure. e.g. a drifter completes, is spawned, the drifter button turns yellow again, but the game code won't allow you to actually build a 2nd drifter untill a second or two later when i presume it finishes doing its checks.
*edit* NS2 is marketed as an RTS/FPS. Yet the fundamental RTS responsiveness and UI has been horrible for years while they work on gorge tunnels, railguns, decals, camo shaders. Then to have large portions of the screen block clicking and player input while you market archea and 50k tournaments? I don't mean to say the former are bad things to work on, but these are far from 'small and annoying bugs'.
Man vs forklift is not by any means a 'small annoying' bug either. If you don't think there's anything wrong with marine rock climbing, jumping onto the heads of standing marines and such (both for the rock climber and enemy aliens), i suggest more game experience.
This obviously isn't simply a bug report. If it was a matter of preference, where is the option in the menus? Action on mouse click release in SC, and any RTS game that takes itself seriously for that matter, would be laughed at as a joke.
what? I've never heard anyone preferring to have any action done on the release of a click (at least where an action is done immediately, as opposed to click and drag, or boxing objects). You shoot a gun when you release the trigger?
That being said, that list is a good start on the majorly annoying bugs in the comm interface (I'd add MAC AI logic that prioritizes broken powernodes over players/exos and the lack of tilt/zoom/rotate as other ones that have bugged me).
At least you can play on LAN, so it's still better than sc2.
Good job with the bug report!
We need the RTS component of the game to be taken very seriously. NS2 has such a unique selling point in the fact that genuine leadership is a component of effective commanding and it would be a real shame for physical limitations to scare away the kinds of players that NS2 desperately needs - especially for the future.
Also, I don't think it is the bugs/problems with the RTS components that scares players away from the comm, but the expectation of the comm to be the team leader. I have more frustration when commanding due to players not following orders, criticizing various decisions (e.g. backseat comming), or actively working against the team (e.g. griefing, being useless, etc) than I do with droppables on click release rather than press.
Don't you remember? If you have options like that, that means the dev couldn't make up his mind. Obviously UWE has decided that action on mouse click release is the correct way to go about it and you're making bad decisions, regardless of your intelligence or knowledge on the subject. Do you know what the leading causes of death for humans are?
http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/skulk-view-rotation-from-the-archives-2/
I also agree that that bugs probably aren't the main factor, although this mostly due to the majority of people not able to get to the level where they're noticeable anyway - the people this will affect most are probably some of the most desirable people. That said, these inconveniences are a considerable factor nonetheless and it is needless frustration. I really hoped that the rts aspect of NS2 was going to improve markedly as I always thought it was the most obvious area for quick and safe improvement. There are so many features/tools that the modern rts has that make them smooth and silky which NS could have replicated and (though I guess i'm now extending my point beyond these annoying bugs/features). I guess, as with everything, it's a time thing?
I'm sure these bugs will be fixed sometime after 1.0
They did say they were trying to fix it however, so I am looking forward to that.
However, if I was going to order NS2 comm features by priority, it'd be something like this:
1. Some form of comm tutorial/training system (e.g. traditional scripted RTS tutorial, improvements on the explore mode, bot training servers/1v1 comm mode, etc)
2. Improvements on the comm selection method (e.g. comm vote, comm is still the comm when out of the chair, can resign or be ejected, etc)
3. Better method to give orders/interacting with players (e.g. squads, more useful order system, etc)
4. Improved UI elements (e.g. more effective warnings of structures under attack, better indicators of what structures/upgrades you have lost, etc)
5. More interface features (e.g. zoom/tilt/rotate view, full 1-9 ctrl groups, ability to rebind comm keys, etc)
6. Fixing the myriad of comm bugs (e.g. elodea's list, AI logic, etc)
improvements (such as tutorials) I see as a bonus and not a priority, but when a step backwards is taken to other standards (not being able to use a hotkeyed-obs for distress beacon, poor control group support, nano-shielding the floor instead of units), then it it becomes immediately noticeable and is ultimately more frustrating.
10) Shit me off for so long before I finally figured it out, it's straight up fucked, you can't use box select and expect to move a drifter in between 2-5 aliens, cysts or structures, it'll simply imply your trying to move a structure or an alien and you're an idiot for doing so.
1) I get the feeling it was added for phase gate and never narrowed down to just phase gate, gotta be honest this has helped me a fair bit in occasions where I was gonna drop shit, didn't release for a while listening and decided against it and voided the drop.
3) and 4) are flat out aggravating and insulting from an RTS perspective, hovering your screen with aliens on the left and marines pushing from the right, trying to listen for more aliens or sliding it across and trying to med pack outer areas of the map and it drops nothing, it's really like comm view has this circle in the middle of the screen that you have to line up all your actions as everything to the side/top/bottom gets LoS or ignored. I'd almost like to see a comm mod that puts a transparent overlay or line across the sides/top/bottom of comm view letting people know if you try performing actions on this part of the screen odds are fuck all will happen, center the screen more stop trying to micro no fun allowed.