UWE should ride the fail wave of Aliens:Colonial Marines

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  • nikodimus86nikodimus86 Members Join Date: 2012-10-22 Member: 163188Posts: 73
    Guys, I've been reading the NS2 forum regarding A:CM and have been browsing the official A:CM forum. Basically people there are (mildly) dissatisfied with how the game turned out. I can definitely see how some are still defending it as a "good and fun" game. The sad thing about that is that some guy posted how he is having a load of fun exploring the rooms of the Sulaco and the colony and get this... He said the fun thing is he found a half eaten bagel or donut. First I was like LOL he must be trolling, but then what if he was so desperate to find positive where there wasn't any? Scary isn't it. :(
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    Further to what ScardyBob just said, the teaser trailer that uwe put out is just that, a TEASER. I for one watched that, salivated, then went straight off to watch some gameplay footage, of which there was plenty from Hugh and others freely available. Had that demo from acm been labelled more obviously as a tech demo, and more videos of actual gameplay been widely available, then perhaps you could begin to make comparisons, but it's not the case. Yes, I'm biased because I think ns2 is great, but as someone who picked up ns2 on releas,e albeit with experience of ns1, I don't think Chris's comparison worth acm is actually either fair or valid.
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  • NammNamm Members Join Date: 2011-12-08 Member: 137116Posts: 412 Fully active user
    Chris0132 wrote: »
    I mean, to me, looking at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwao4yZVkAg (sorry, this should be the link for the first section of my first post, I'll amend it) it looks pretty much like the ACM trailer featured in the video.
    UWE was very clear about that being pre-rendered stuff and not actual gameplay. If UWE had claimed it was actual gameplay footage things would be different.

    As for the actual feature (Onos knocking down doors) I'm a bit bummed that it didn't make it into the game (just as welding doors), but the lack of that feature doesn't break the game (as for instance useless AI in A:CM) and the devs might still be working on it. If they add it to the game, we will probably not have to pay for it in a DLC package (the same can't be said about A:CM).
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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    I will only add on the trailer that they are slowly making more maps which will look completely different.

    I also mess around with the atmostpheric & occlusion setting. it changes looks so much its insane.
    I have no problem with that trailer vs the actual game.

    Onos is in and in a umbra cloud can be just as scary.
    Depending on where in the level, stuff can be quite astonishing.
    Who knows what will be patched in at later points, no.. im fairly happy.

    If uwe would have made the same horrid difference as A:CM did, id be a lot less happy.
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  • Chris0132Chris0132 Members Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854
    edited February 2013
    Namm wrote: »
    Chris0132 wrote: »
    I mean, to me, looking at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwao4yZVkAg (sorry, this should be the link for the first section of my first post, I'll amend it) it looks pretty much like the ACM trailer featured in the video.
    UWE was very clear about that being pre-rendered stuff and not actual gameplay. If UWE had claimed it was actual gameplay footage things would be different.

    As I recall, there was something at the time about it being sort of in engine, in the sense that I'm sure there was a news post or something about it being the engine's cinematic editor or something, certainly it implied that it was basically in-engine stuff rendered out with a little postprocessing. To me it's like valve's early TF2 'meet the X' stuff, which looks pretty much like TF2, only with canned animations and things. If anything, the difference between the NS2 teaser and the early TF2 stuff is more marked, it shows a quite noticeable difference lighting style.

    But 'in engine rendered out with some postprocessing' is exactly what the ACM demo looks like, hence my comparison.
    @Chris0132 I won't be visiting this thread any more, you have run a freight train through it.

    The suggestion that cinematic teaser trailers and tech demos are somehow equivalent to the 'representative vertical slice of gameplay' shown by ACM at E3 is utterly, utterly repulsive.


    I appreciate that you likely do not share my view, presumably because, working for UWE, you are far more privy to the intents of the released material.

    It may entirely be the case that the intent of the prerelease stuff was not to give the impressions I got from it, but that does not make it any less the case that I got those impressions.

    When I look at the prerelease trailers for NS2, I see things that look a lot like the prerelease trailers for ACM, regardless of whether you intended to give that impression, that is the one I drew from it. 'This is what the game is going to look like.'

    When it fails to meet those expectations, I see it in both cases as being an unfortunate, but likely unavoidable case of overestimation on the part of the developers, and the usual habit of things simply not going as expected, as things often do. It happens during any large enterprise, and game development is no exception. It happens to me when I make levels, I'm sure it happens everywhere else too

    I don't think it is deliberate malice that causes games to turn out differently than how they're envisioned at the start, or that causes things to not be doable within performance constraints, or that causes the intended take-away from a piece of media to not be the same as the actual take-away. It just happens, because the world is complicated and slightly random. None of this has any particular bearing on the overall quality of the games in question. I still think NS2 is good if you get a good game, and deserves a lot of praise for being a unique entity, something worth making, something that isn't a rehash of an existing idea. I also still think ACM is pretty dreadful because it's almost exactly a rehash of AVP2010, which is not a valuable thing to spend time making, but both appear to have had comparable things happen in their development process, and I don't think either should be railed against for it.

    If that view is repulsive to you then I don't know what to say. To me it seems the only way to be fair.
  • ResRes Members Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Posts: 626
    edited February 2013
    Chris0132... why bother even posting... it's clear no one agrees with you, won't be agreeing with you and you won't be convincing anyone of your position. Lets face it... your position is a far stretch from what ACM showed and said about their game compared to the devs of NS2.

    Also, what you seem to be missing is that ACM released an actual DEMO, not just a pre-release trailer, that was a far different product.
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Members Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Posts: 3,543 Fully active user
    Res wrote: »
    Chris0132... why bother even posting... it's clear no one agrees with you, won't be agreeing with you and you won't be convincing anyone of your position. Lets face it... your position is a far stretch from what ACM showed and said about their game compared to the devs of NS2.

    he's probably someone that worked on A:CM and is clutching at straws.

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  • WheeeeWheeee Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    i hate that when someone disagrees with something they're automatically labeled "devs for <xyz> [opposing game]." Chris just has problems letting go of certain things.
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  • Chris0132Chris0132 Members Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854
    I believe very strongly in the need for being methodical and strict in criticism. As I said, I think it damages everyone involved if people don't subject everything to the same harsh scrutiny. Giving things a free pass when they don't need it just seems... odd. As does demonising people for understandable decisions.
  • CiroCiro Members Join Date: 2013-01-09 Member: 178392Posts: 213
    Chris0132 wrote: »
    That's a bit subjective, for one, I think the finished product looks far worse than almost all of the prerelease stuff. I don't like the lighting style in finished NS2 levels, and I was rather looking forward to the features that were talked about or shown, but ended up being dropped.

    What I understood at the time was that those videos were released using in-engine technology and art, and were to be representative of the final product. Some of them are official trailers for the game, others are demos of the engine as it was functioning at the time. That's exactly the sort of thing people are asking in the aliens video. 'This technology obviously existed in some form, why isn't it in the final game?'

    My confusion is simply that people seem, in the aliens example, to be doing exactly what you said people don't, objecting to the game because they showed an early example of the tech and the final game ended up looking dramatically different. Those NS2 videos are clearly using ingame art, the engine can certainly produce those particle effects and animations, and the lighting engine as far as I know, used to be able to run in realtime looking very much in the style of chiaroscuro or tenebrism, but this is not in the final game.

    I entirely understand that there are a lot of reasons why that may not be the case, but I still am not entirely sure what is very different between the NS2 early/teaser videos and the ACM early/teaser videos, both of them look far more interesting than the finished product. Whether you cut the more interesting aspects because they didn't work out from a gameplay perspective, or because they never ran quite right, or because of time constraints, or whatever other perfectly rational reason there may have been, the fact remains that things are missing.

    It is odd to me that ACM 'obviously' was wrong in what they cut, despite all of those reasons being quite possibly applicable to them as well, while NS2 apparently was so right in doing it that it rewrote history to the point that nothing was ever cut at all?

    About the only difference I can see is that ACM looks like a dreadfully dull game that was entirely relying on its cut atmospheric features, while NS2 can still be fun even without some of its more promising features. Seemingly, the complaint is that ACM is a Bad Game and thus everything it ever did is wrong, whereas NS2 is Not A Bad Game and thus its changes are entirely understandable and even commendable design decisions.

    Can you post some videos, comparing gameplay pre-release and post-release, for A:CM and NS2, proving your point? Tech demo's and scripted Teasers shouldn't count (imo), since ones for showing off possible technology and the others technically been enhanced for advertising.

    Your point's clear, but I don't see where the UWE's team mislead it's customers the way A:CM's team did.
  • kais_4kais_4 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-08-31 Member: 157127Posts: 65
    Yeah, I agree with the post that stated how transparent NS2 devs have been. ACM was nothing short of false advertisement. I can see where Chris is coming from but it really isn't the same at all.
  • GISPGISP Battle Gorge DenmarkMembers, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Forum staff Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27460Posts: 1,232 mod
    From day 1 UWE has been fully transparent, from the vary first engine tests all the way to release.
    We are talking full disclosure, from when it was nothing more then a few concept images and a engine having allmost no gamecode, just a lackcluster of a tiny level, and rifle to poke target dummies whit.
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  • AmbAmb Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168647Posts: 317 Fully active user
    edited February 2013
    Colonial Marine is a shit game, yes. But guess what, guys? It doesn't crash 5 times a day and it has decals.
  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Members Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Posts: 782 Advanced user
    I really doubt your NS2 crashes that often Amb... that has to be an exaggeration. Personally I haven't had a crash in maybe over 2 months.
    Namm
  • brechtosbrechtos BelgiumMembers, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2008-04-18 Member: 64100Posts: 63
    A single match / map in ns2 shows more dedication and care than every level in ACM combined. Lost track of the amount of level holes, floating props, dead ends, spawning pickups and npc's ... . NS2 blows ACM out of the water on every aspect.
  • gnoarchgnoarch Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2012-08-29 Member: 156802Posts: 259 Advanced user
    sorry guys but dont u think comparing NS2 to A:CM is kinda moronic?
    Except from marines and aliens being present in both games they really don't have much in common
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Members Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Posts: 448 Advanced user
    I am too lazy to read every page. From what I have deciphered on this and the fourth page, Chris is saying that criticism of ACM for the discrepancies in its trailer and final product are comparable to NS2's trailer and final product.

    Now, whether or not ACM's were much more or less tangential is irrelevant; all he is saying is that NS2 may be susceptible to some level, again more or less, but nonetheless, SOME level of criticism.

    I don't care enough to find out if it should be criticised because quite frankly I love the game and it cost almost nothing (although it was bought for me...) so it's not a big issue.

    As for calling Chris names - grow up.
    CiroTharos
  • BobRossTheBossBobRossTheBoss Members Join Date: 2012-12-31 Member: 176824Posts: 172 Fully active user
    edited February 2013
    I believe very strongly in the need for being methodical and strict in criticism. As I said, I think it damages everyone involved if people don't subject everything to the same harsh scrutiny. Giving things a free pass when they don't need it just seems... odd. As does demonising people for understandable decisions.

    Ok, let me help you out buddy.

    First look up and compare the definitions of these words:

    -Demo
    -Beta
    -Teaser
    -Trailer
    -Patch

    Once you are armed with this advanced knowledge, try scrolling through your arguments again and examining them.
    I am too lazy to read every page. From what I have deciphered on this and the fourth page, Chris is saying that criticism of ACM for the discrepancies in its trailer and final product are comparable to NS2's trailer and final product.

    Now, whether or not ACM's were much more or less tangential is irrelevant; all he is saying is that NS2 may be susceptible to some level, again more or less, but nonetheless, SOME level of criticism.

    I don't care enough to find out if it should be criticised because quite frankly I love the game and it cost almost nothing (although it was bought for me...) so it's not a big issue.

    As for calling Chris names - grow up.

    The difference is openness and information. The UWE developers have been involved in their community far more than Gearbox, and have been more open with their design decisions.

    NS2 had a beta and is currently in build 239 with a brand new patch full of changes coming up. Changes that UWE's customers have some idea about because UWE releases patch notes for their updates.

    A:CM had a demo that was touted as gameplay at E3, then a released product which was nothing like what customers expected.


  • OutlawDrOutlawDr Members Join Date: 2009-06-21 Member: 67887Posts: 423
    edited February 2013
    A:CM had a demo that was touted as gameplay at E3, then a released product which was nothing like what customers expected.

    QFE

    If people can't tell the difference between A:CM's devs clear deception of their followers and NS2 devs very open development, thats there problem. Haters gonna hate. Don't feed the trolls.

    ...down by the river.
  • TykjenTykjen Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-21 Member: 12552Posts: 945 Fully active user
    never experienced such a let down...now AVP 2010 is a masterpiece in comparison.
  • XariusXarius Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,207
    I don't know why people are giving any more attention to obvious trolls. Though kudos to the devs for even trying to reason with him.
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  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    Amb wrote: »
    Colonial Marine is a shit game, yes. But guess what, guys? It doesn't crash 5 times a day and it has decals.
    We have decals now, and so will you very soon.

    And I'm sure there are people who get a lot of crashes with A:CM because that is the nature of PC development. There are always incompatibility issues with some people's machines, and Max has been really focused on fixing the crashes in the game based off the crash reports that people have submitted. One of the main crash issues, we believe, comes from people running out of memory, and Max and Steve have been doing a lot to bring down the memory footprint with optimizations like animation compression, which should help a lot in that area.

    I'd just like to add that NS2 has never crashed on me. Which is more than I can say for almost every other piece of software I use (apart from mumble, which has also never crashed on me).

    Yeah, some people will get crashes, but if Amb crashes 5 times a day and hates the game as much as his posts always indicate, I don't really know why he's here.
    For all your gorge busting needs.
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  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Posts: 1,727
    Compared to other new games I've played over the last ~5 years, NS2 crashes remarkably infrequently. This is anecdotal evidence admittedly, but from my experience stability is one of the strong points of the spark engine.
    CiroLocklear
  • IronsoulIronsoul Members Join Date: 2011-03-12 Member: 86048Posts: 869 Advanced user
    Kinda off topic. I actually forgot that ns2 had crash issues. Wow.
  • WheeeeWheeee Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    fanatic wrote: »
    Compared to other new games I've played over the last ~5 years, NS2 crashes remarkably infrequently. This is anecdotal evidence admittedly, but from my experience stability is one of the strong points of the spark engine.

    it's the secret to archaea's dominance.

    no crashing issues on their machines.
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  • draktokdraktok Members Join Date: 2013-02-18 Member: 183156Posts: 253 Fully active user
    This has only ever crashed on me like one time, lol
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