Veil and the Dome
|strofix|
Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
I think rooms like the Dome highlight a big problem with Veil.
I have recently begun my marine games on Veil by taking skylights and topo as normal, and then moving directly to the dome and setting up a base. Why the dome? Well, from what I can tell it seems to be the "narrowest" point on the map. That is to say that, if you put a phase gate next to the power node, the only two cyst lines into pipeline that are possible must pass within 2 or so meters of your location. That means that entire side of the map is essentially locked down, without you even having to go there. In the other direction you have what is one of the longest corridors in the game, perfectly covering one of the easiest siege spots in the game. You don't even really need sieges, since you can just proxy marines in from dome continuously, and the large open nature of cargo will do the rest for you. Waypointing provides much of the same benefits the dome does, but isn't as out of the way (the power node that is), and doesn't give the easy access to cargo.
The problem is that NS2 seems largely based on tech rooms with 2 alternate exit paths, each branching off in another direction. If you block one, then you should be far away from the other, still allowing for expansion. Due to Veil's layout however, this isn't true. The only tech point's that do roughly adhere to this are marine spawn and cargo hive, which is a good start, because half of the wagon wheel is complete already. The issue is that pipeline and sub access lie roughly on the same horizontal line, which means their access routes can only go in one direction, making overlap inevitable. I think if pipeline and sub were shifted down a bit (pipeline more towards topo, and sub more towards skylights) then the access routes would be able to be spaced apart better, and it wouldn't be so easy to cut off entire parts of the map from infestation.
I have recently begun my marine games on Veil by taking skylights and topo as normal, and then moving directly to the dome and setting up a base. Why the dome? Well, from what I can tell it seems to be the "narrowest" point on the map. That is to say that, if you put a phase gate next to the power node, the only two cyst lines into pipeline that are possible must pass within 2 or so meters of your location. That means that entire side of the map is essentially locked down, without you even having to go there. In the other direction you have what is one of the longest corridors in the game, perfectly covering one of the easiest siege spots in the game. You don't even really need sieges, since you can just proxy marines in from dome continuously, and the large open nature of cargo will do the rest for you. Waypointing provides much of the same benefits the dome does, but isn't as out of the way (the power node that is), and doesn't give the easy access to cargo.
The problem is that NS2 seems largely based on tech rooms with 2 alternate exit paths, each branching off in another direction. If you block one, then you should be far away from the other, still allowing for expansion. Due to Veil's layout however, this isn't true. The only tech point's that do roughly adhere to this are marine spawn and cargo hive, which is a good start, because half of the wagon wheel is complete already. The issue is that pipeline and sub access lie roughly on the same horizontal line, which means their access routes can only go in one direction, making overlap inevitable. I think if pipeline and sub were shifted down a bit (pipeline more towards topo, and sub more towards skylights) then the access routes would be able to be spaced apart better, and it wouldn't be so easy to cut off entire parts of the map from infestation.
Comments
Umm, ok. Well there are 2 other hives called Cargo and Sub-Access. Veil has random alien spawns between them, so in the 66% of games where aliens don't spawn in pipe, things may go a little differently.
If the marine team knows about it, so should the alien team. Running 2/3 marines into Dome to build a phase can be countered.
As for the Dome..... unless the Aliens start in Sub, they would have to be pretty bad in order to let the marines setup there. The dome has so many access points from which it can be attacked it's ridiculous. If you can take the dome when the aliens start at pipe or cargo, then it is pretty unbalanced teams to begin with.
That assumes that any attempt by the marines to set up a fortification will be countered, which means imbalanced teams.
Lets rather assume fair teams, and say that its a 50/50, which is fine. In most cases, not only is securing a location a 50/50 scenario, but winning the game after taking that location is not that much better than a 50/50. That's how territory based games work.
What I'm saying is that, if marines can secure the dome, with their 50/50 chance, the game is then horribly skewed in their favor, because that single location has too big a strategic impact due to the maps layout.
That's not necessarily true. A layout of a given territory can favor one side over the other even if both teams are equal in skill.
(ie: big open areas with little cover will be easier for marines to take and hold even if both teams are equal in skill. Since the Dome is not exactly big and open and has many access points, it favors aliens).
It doesn't automatically assume imbalanced teams. I also don't agree that it's a 50/50 scenario in any war for territory.
For starters:
1) If aliens are in pipe and you try to set up in dome, they KNOW they have to throw everything into clearing you out.
2) If you over commit and send 3/4 of your team there the aliens can counter with a base rush, snipe all your other RT's and drop a 2nd hive.
3) Even if you do get a phase gate up, aliens will throw the whole team at you to clear it out.
4) With forward scouting the chance of marines setting up in Dome is reduced even further.
5) The alien comm can cyst the area, meaning marines have to kill a cyst (and give warning) before they start to build anything.
Going off your logic, I could say Aliens spawning in Sub-sector have a 50/50 chance to secure Topographical. I know it's a strong spot if marines get the Dome, but alien teams also know this.
Well then what would you say the probability is for marines securing the dome? Make sure to mention every single conceivable sequence of events and possible outcomes, or state all the factors which sway it considerably in one teams favor or another (all the points you stated above assume perfect knowledge on the alien's side, or consist of the most unfortunate series of events conceivable for marines).
If you can't conclusively do what I request above, then I think 50/50 will be a suitable estimation for the time being.
Do elaborate. I'd like to know how to improve the strategy, and the locations weaknesses would be of great interest to me.
You're still missing the fact that a layout of a given area can favor one side or the other securing a location, assuming both teams equal in skill. The Dome layout favors Aliens. If both teams are equal in skill Aliens should control it, unless marine team is stacked to begin with.
Yes but it isn't that simple is it?
If it were, then what would happen if the aliens started in Cargo? Cargo is big and open, heavily favoring marines, which means the marine team controls the alien hive location. You're assuming the aliens can control an area indefinitely, and even if the marines build there, they can simply retake it whenever they like. I haven't tested it extensively enough yet, but my hypothesis is that placing a phase gate and armory in the dome will require an incredibly well orchestrated alien attack to clear out. Placing mines in that incredibly cramped location will require an alien team superior to the marine team to clear out.
Are you serious? Did you even read my post?
To sum up:
You assume marines can just go to Dome and set up a base and it's strong vs Aliens.
I assume an equal alien team knows this and can use scouting to see it coming and counter it.
I'm not saying you are wrong, I agree it's a strong location for marines to secure. What I'm saying is that I don't think it's 50/50. What I did was offer some opinions on how to counter the strategy. But that is like me asking you something like: 'Tell me how one skulk attacking Control is a 50/50 chance for Aliens to secure that territory' ?
No, it is not quite that simple since starting location also has an affect, such has aliens starting in sub. Travel time to dome would affect them.
Also, cargo is only open once you are inside it and the fact that the powernode is near one of the entrances to cargo.
Straight away I can tell you that that is unlikely to be 50/50 because the single skulk is likely to encounter superior numbers on his way, or at the very least equal numbers at a location where the person will respawn in a matter of seconds.
See, because that scenario is so obviously not 50/50, its very easy to identify why it isn't.
I'm not saying the likelyhood of marines taking the dome is 50/50, but if you are unable to easily determine who would have the advantage, for definitive reasons, then chances are the actual probability is close enough to 50/50 for it to be an adequate estimation.
Also, this move cannot be scouted, because the only indication would be a number of marines in and around the area of C12.
This would suggest:
A move on pipeline
A move on nano
A move on the dome
A move on cargo
General marine expansion
imo marines are best moving to sub (if its clear) then system then nano then cargo then neck then pipe a pg at each of those locations
Dome is alright for a ninja phase gate if you have jetpacks but if you don't Gorges can just Bile from the vent (I don't think that vent has a cover on it yet). Like deathshroud said, System Waypointing is where it's at. It's quick access to Sub, Nano and Y-Junction. It's especially good if Aliens start in Cargo or Pipe because you can cut Aliens RTs down to Cargo, Pipe and, if Aliens are really fortunate, maybe C12.
It's normally best to just go for Nano and Sub though. If you're lucky and get Cargo then the game is basically over unless Marine Start gets rushed.
Regardless, I don't think this is the heart of the issue that you are trying to get at. I think you are saying that there should be no location in a map where it is possible to control a large section of the map by holding 1 spot.
I agree on that count, just like holding Central on mineshaft as marines pretty much auto gets you Deposit tech point.
As I stated earlier though, Veil is a NS1 remake and most likely won't see a map layout change as a result.
System waypointing is a far better location to take for the long haul. Its much bigger than dome and less susceptible to bile bomb. However it doesn't "cut off" sub access as well as the dome cuts off pipeline. That is to say, system waypointing is essentially right next to sub access, so you are minimizing the area you take passively. System waypointing also isn't really an offensive position if aliens are in cargo or pipe. Chances are you will end up in a 2 tech points each fight.
But system waypointing highlights the same problem, even better than the dome does, because in order to infest the right side of the map, aliens have to go through it. There is absolutely no other choice available.
I have, so far its 100/0. So is that what it actually is? Should I test more? If I test 10 more times and its 80/20 for marines will that be what it actually is? Of course not. This kind of thing can only feasibly be theory-crafted. You will never get conclusive practical information from limited sources.
There's really no reason to cut off Pipeline. Pipeline sucks.
Because Cargo is easier to hit with bile bomb.
easier said than done. Only if the teams are disproportionate in skill could this happen.
All it takes is early mines, and an armoury.
Oh, and marines who follow orders.
Because taking System Waypointing or Cargo isn't always a sure thing. You can take Pipeline then go East Wing to Nanogrid.