Docking and skulk-rushes.
Uh-Oh
Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6917Members
Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6917Members
Holy zerg-rush batman.
Can we please get random starts for marine in Docking.
Aliens always know where marines start, thus they can easily base rush if they wish to (which they do, frequently).
Meanwhile the alien commander can expand without being disturbed.
So even if the initial rush doesn't end the game, it puts the marine in a bad position to begin.
So, in short, please either make marines start in random locations (not necessarily all the tech points, but more than 1!) or find another way to balance the map to reduce the effectiveness of alien rushes.
Please refrain from l2p or get mines comments, because those are not good solutions (one forces you to be better than your opponent, the other forces you in a tech path, thus limiting variety and freedom).
The easiest fix is random spawns, but hey! if for some narrative reason you MUST have marines spawn in terminal (it's called terminal right?), do something please.
Can we please get random starts for marine in Docking.
Aliens always know where marines start, thus they can easily base rush if they wish to (which they do, frequently).
Meanwhile the alien commander can expand without being disturbed.
So even if the initial rush doesn't end the game, it puts the marine in a bad position to begin.
So, in short, please either make marines start in random locations (not necessarily all the tech points, but more than 1!) or find another way to balance the map to reduce the effectiveness of alien rushes.
Please refrain from l2p or get mines comments, because those are not good solutions (one forces you to be better than your opponent, the other forces you in a tech path, thus limiting variety and freedom).
The easiest fix is random spawns, but hey! if for some narrative reason you MUST have marines spawn in terminal (it's called terminal right?), do something please.
Comments
I don't understand.
It takes, at most, 20 seconds to scout the enemy base's location, then you can just rush it. How is an additional few seconds going to change anything?
If, as commander, you are truly concerned about the possibility and consequence of a base rush, build 3 infantry portals, and expand with the majority of your forces directly towards the alien.
So, if you are in an 8v8, you put down 3 infantry portals, send 4 people directly towards their hive (the location of which the base rush should have exposed) 2 down the other route (east wing or courtyard) and one player (preferably your best one) through to cafeteria to begin unhindered res capping. Its important for the other 6 players to play suicidally though, to get maximum player flow through your base.
Marines are basically damned either way on Dockinig. If they split up, they may get zerged. So even if they take all three foot paths out, if you have say 2 marines go each way (one stays to build and one in the chair) then the alien's 4 skulks will make mincemeat out of them no matter WHICH path they take. (I'm assuming 2 gorges and one khamm and one guy who goes scouting) On Veil you usually get 3 and 3, and Topographical is wide open and not skulk friendly.
Alternately, with Docking you have East Wing which is a maze of halls and an easy ambush, the vent onto Landing Pad you can't even reach, and the path to Courtyard can be deadly depending on whether you reach courtyard before they do. The only path where marines have the upper hand is in Cafeteria, which is like Topographical, wide open.
For aliens a rush on Docking is a no-lose scenario. At worst you all die, and the marines have had to delay their advance and builds while fighting off the attack. While you respawn they are pushing up, and by the time you get back you have some tasty extractors to chew on. Rinse and repeat.
What marines often do now is sit 4 guys in base to wait out the rush, which delays expansion while the khamm has easy mode expansion.
This.
I didn't think I'd have to elaborate as to why such an efficient alien tactic makes no sense if the opposite team doesn't have an equivalent to do the same, or counter.
I'm lazy and I don't feel like explaining why it makes no sense that the marine team should be obligated to either sit guys in base, have better players, or be obligated to build a second ip quickly (thus limiting freedom of strategic choice).
If the other team is not also limited in a similar fashion it is unbalanced. And even if the other team were limited, it would still be no fun because you limit the variety of gameplay and strategic decisions.
Anyways, if you think it's all good, great for you guys. But from a design stand point, docking is not in an ideal situation for marines at the moment (specifically concerning base-rushes).
I'm still confused by this to be honest.
Consider the following: aliens start in generator, marines obviously in terminal. The aliens immediately base rush the marines followed by much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Ok, all good.
Now consider tram or summit. If, at game start, all aliens immediately move out in the same direction, and marines have either spawned in the opposite location, or in the adjacent location in the direction the aliens are going, the aliens will arrive on average in almost the same amount of time, maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. My stats is pretty bad, but that is something like a 33% chance that every game goes this way, ending in inevitable, defeat inducing set backs? I personally do not see this happening.
Furthermore, do you experience the same base rushing problem on refinery? Once again, I don't.
It seems your concern lies more with the alien team's ability to both rush and expand simultaneously. This is a well documented and widely felt issue, and I'm sure UWE are working hard to come up with a solution, if one is indeed required. However, I don't think blaming docking's design is warranted.
Send one guy East Wing to see if they are rushing from Departures, have 1 or 2 build and send the rest into Courtyard. If it is a base rush and you break even you have 2 marines in base building and marines re-spawning. So you stop the base rush before any damage is done.
Aliens can't continually base rush. They run out of eggs too quickly, especially in larger servers.
Once marines clear courtyard they can continually snipe Maintenance and Stability Res and easily get Locker Room. It's fairly easy to egg-lock Aliens if they spawn Locker and fail a base rush.
EDIT:
Alternate spawns on Docking would be pretty awesome though, looking forward to that.
Funny as terminal was the best spawn for marines out of all the other options. When we had fully random tech starting points the marines moaned like no tomorrow about how unfair the starting locations where.
This is why marines only have terminal as their spawn...the other tech points resulted in games that where too alien favoured (apparently).
I did notice a thread/topic saying other marine spawn points where planned in coming releases...this may be in the form of set pairs of spawn points as that seems the easiest way to solve the issues that plagued the fully random option.
For once I agree with strofix.
forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2071011/#Comment_2071011
If I remember correctly, my shortest rounds as Alien on this map are 57secs and 1.18min (pubs).
Expect the base rush, and capitalize on the lack of eggs immediately following it and it's an easy win for the marines.
If more players would know about the importance of stability and locker and would use this way, you wouldn't see successful rushes this often. Instead you would have more epic clashes in courtyard.
Roo
lol, are you kidding me?
Isn't that the point and how you win?
Saying l2p isn't a constructive response...what knowledge or suggestions have you imparted? how has the poster benefited from that response?
However, suggesting mines is acceptable, your giving a strategy that you believe would be effective at dealing with the issue. The poster has suggested he's aware of this strategy but is asking for alternatives. I don't think there was anything wrong with his post.
You aren't reading the same post as me then, he states specifically that: "one forces you to be better than your opponent"
Yeah, you need to be better than your opponent to win. I don't see whats confusing about that.
Now for some hand-holding:
Keep 2 people at spawn to build and stay out of the commchair during the first minute or two while your team caps, get an obs up early. If you have 3 marines waiting for the rush and they still die: You deserve that loss. 3 rines should be able to easily shred 6 skulks, maybe 8, at a distance. If they can aim. Get mines early. You should ALWAYS HAVE MINES FAST THEY ARE RIDICULOUSLY GOOD.
As a commander, get your butt out of the chair and spend your PRES on a pack of mines for IP/Chair/Obs.
-Keeping a guy or two in the base early game? Sure.
-3 pub 'rines killing 8 skulks? lol good luck
In all seriousness, scouting is crucial. The marine comm should always know of possible paths aliens can take to get to the base and if there isn't any marine resistance in said paths, then he should send someone to scout it.
Common sense also applies here. If you see 7 aliens just kill a marine and the rt in east wing, say something because those aliens are probably coming to your base next.
Also, why is it that you mention "pub" marines? People like us that are into competitive didn't just pop into existance, we all started playing random public disorganized games, and the fact of the matter is, not every pub player is terrible, I've seen some really good players.
Anyway, it is an issue of aiming and preparation. Docking is known to be rush friendly, so prep for it. Warn the teammates. If they don't listen, or they all die, then GG.
There are some good players, but good players will be heading out in every direction and kill most of the skulks before they ever get to base. Inexperienced players (who are the ones who get hit badly by base rushing) mostly can't aim well enough to take down 2/3 skulks each. And therin lies the next hint on how to avoid the base rush, you know the skulks are going to come down one of those two long corridors into terminal (it's rare to get hit from cafe). Get your marines placed so they have maximum view and distance down those corridors, hopefully that distance advantage is enough to secure them more kills.
[Edit]
Oh and MINES MINES MINES MINES MINES!
And I do think scouting can help base rushes. OP is referring to instant base rushes (first 30 seconds). If you send a scout in all directions, he/she can usually call out if a large swarm of skulks is coming. Then, in response, the Comm can call half of his team back. The goal of scouting is not to 'cut off' or stop a skulk rush but simply notify your team one is coming.
I also do agree with OP as well. Having a second possible marine start in Caf, for example, could help as well. But then again, Caf/Locker spawns puts the aliens just as close to the marines as Term/Docking. There really isn't a 'fix' for cheese strats like an all in base rush right at the beginning of a game. Marines just gotta be smart about it. If you don't have any alien contact in the first 30 seconds, you can safely assume a base rush is coming.
Edited for phrasing.