they made changes to shotgun and gorge spit in the last build.
What do you want? Do you think they have the balance solution but just withhold the changes?
No, they are making incremental changes vice you risk imbalance towards marines if you do too many changes at once.
Don't forget this game is only a few months old (as far as being widely available).
However I do feel aliens are able to harass res nodes much easier and more effectively than marines. 2 skulks can quickly cross the map and bring down a node.
Aliens can dictate the pace much better esp with gorge bile bomb coordination. they are able to dictate actions to the marines. They know they will either beacon or sacrifice the main base. Once beaconed just crush the expansion.
@gnoarch: You cant compare this to SC2, in early SC2 Terrans were only favoured in the lower skill segments while the pros had pretty even balance. And they introduced stuff like supply depot before barracks pretty early afaik.
New players need to be shown how to play before any major balance changes. A tutorial mode with descriptions and a how-to for each weapon/lifeform/ability, challenges (ie timed lap of tram as shadowjump fade), video descriptions for lifeforms/marines/comm put in some obvious place and also viewable ingame (link w/ ingame popup right in the evolve menu if you have to).
This should be the minimum, having such a huge numbers of players in every game/server that have no idea what to do just kills the fun for everyone involved.
The real culprit of the imbalances is the alien economic model and as long as no significant changes to it take place aliens are going to remain as dominant as they are currently. It quite frankly baffles me that all throughout beta UWE has only adjusted the economic model once. Do they honestly believe that they can just implement a brand new economic model the way they did (Since NS 1 aliens had only p.res) without it requiring a lot of finetuning? All these 'balance patches' they have attempted all throughout beta and release have just been a side-show completely neglecting the root cause.
NS 1 was way more balanced than NS 2 ever will be at this rate, yet somehow UWE has not made that analysis and come to the understanding that some big changes are needed in the way aliens gather and use their resources.
Now we have a thread about aliens being nerfed continuously and a thread about the lack of balancing measures, seperated only by a thread about weak fades/OP shotguns. Sums up the forums really. xD
Having said that, yes, there's still work to be done imo. I feel alien expansion is a bit too easy in comparison to marine expansion, and that maybe the gorge should be more of a necessary factor in building structures (especially harvesters) rather than a negligible catalyst (I might be wrong, but I wonder how it would affect the pub games). But the constant moaning is getting more on my nerves than the skewed win/lose rates.
Really, ha! I'm the troll in a deliberately negative thread that is just there to accuse UWE of something ridiculous? Right after they released 2 updates on the same day?
Again, this is a masturbatory thread of negativity.
On my pub server the marines have been winning more since 238 came out. The game can be be balanced 100% but if you have a crappy uncoordinated team then you are still going to lose.
MrChoke's answer to balance was a long thread about how badly he wanted turrets to be effective. Later in the thread, he asked "what is competitive gaming?"
Take his threads as a grain of salt.
He's right that some balancing is definitely needed, personally I think marines are fine, but that the entire alien mechanic of not needing to scout, and having no risk to throwing life away (as a skulk) or throwing life away late game, because of TRes drops, makes aliens able to simply play as over powered, and not as the sneaky little devils they are supposed to be, because what's the risk?
Look, the problem isn't balance with the numbers, or anything like that, the problem is that while it is a TEAM game, marines are the only team that HAVE to have great team work. In theory one alien can carry the whole team, if he's a good enough lerk or fade he can hold marines from expanding almost solo. That's not possible on marines, if everyone except one guy is retarded, that one guy can't kill every res, every upgrade, every hive, every lifeform the aliens have, AND expand. Not possible. The game is MUCH more balanced in the theory that the marines work as intended (AS A TEAM) but in reality they're mostly a bunch of unorganised idiots (in pubs). Teams like archaea show it's POSSIBLE to win as either side without too much hassle. In fact, I'd say archaea has a higher chance of winning marines than aliens.
Right now NS2Stats actually shows 46/54 on 239 pubs. We'll see if it reverts back as the sample size grows.
What UWE is worried about is that current balance problems might be a result of performance and hitreg issues that will gradually improve over time. They might be right, but I wish they would consider making shorter-term changes to at least alleviate the symptoms. Worst case scenario they might need to be reverted later, no big deal. Aliens have had the upper hand for months which is far too long to hold out for the perfect solution IMO. I don't think people will flip out if marines end up being a bit too strong for a little while.
A 60/40 ratio is not horrendous but I don't think it's acceptable either. Don't forget in "competitive" games, the people who supposedly live and breathe NS2, it is 70/30. Do you think that is acceptable?
I think the 70/30ish ratio in competitive is more due to the 8v8 setup they run. I know that's the ideal teamsize and all that in their minds and probably in practice too as far as actually fielding that many players competitively. But like I said, I just feel the game plays much more balanced at 12v12. There's several reasons for it, such as having more marines available for pressuring/ninjaing and I think the more the number of players scale in a fire fight the more the advantage meter sways towards the marine winning it, skill levels aside. Skill and teamwork should be a moot point there since we're talking competitive anyway, outside of some teams just being more skilled and having better teamwork.
You should also learn that play-testers do not get to have any say in balancing the game. They're there to play in-house builds to test stability and have tea together in their clubhouse. That's it.
To clarify:
A) When something is painfully obvious that it will break balance, we scream and do have a say. If its anything less, the feedback comes from those many other sources that Flayra blogged about on the main page with visuals included, a few weeks ago. Our primary mission is definitely bugs, but occasionally we are asked for feedback, and of course we are constantly having our own discussions in the internal forums.
B)Tequila, not tea. pssh
A 60/40 ratio is not horrendous but I don't think it's acceptable either. Don't forget in "competitive" games, the people who supposedly live and breathe NS2, it is 70/30. Do you think that is acceptable?
I think the 70/30ish ratio in competitive is more due to the 8v8 setup they run. I know that's the ideal teamsize and all that in their minds and probably in practice too as far as actually fielding that many players competitively. But like I said, I just feel the game plays much more balanced at 12v12. There's several reasons for it, such as having more marines available for pressuring/ninjaing and I think the more the number of players scale in a fire fight the more the advantage meter sways towards the marine winning it, skill levels aside. Skill and teamwork should be a moot point there since we're talking competitive anyway, outside of some teams just being more skilled and having better teamwork.
first of all, it's 6v6
second of all, 12 v 12 is horrible for balance (incredibly marine favored)
people also forget that there's huge skill differences even among competitive teams. A team like archaea basically never loses as marines. Is that a result of them being so much better than everyone else, an actual race imbalance, map imbalances, or combinations thereof?
Actually the fact that marines and aliens both win AT ALL in competitive play shows the game has a fairly decent starting balance. If aliens were truly overpowered the only way marines could win would be to significantly outplay the aliens, which does not happen at a competitive level where all players are highly skilled. The win rate would be something like 98%.
Right now, the balance is sufficient that the game is playable. You can play either side and have a chance of winning from the outset. The marines are a bit of an underdog, but you haven't given up the game the moment you join their team, and it can be fun to play the underdog. The win rate doesn't actually matter. Basically any competitive game should be set up in a match structure such that both teams play aliens and marines an equal amount, and the team that pulls the most overall wins wins.
Actually the fact that marines and aliens both win AT ALL in competitive play shows the game has a fairly decent starting balance. If aliens were truly overpowered the only way marines could win would be to significantly outplay the aliens, which does not happen at a competitive level where all players are highly skilled. The win rate would be something like 98%.
Right now, the balance is sufficient that the game is playable. You can play either side and have a chance of winning from the outset. The marines are a bit of an underdog, but you haven't given up the game the moment you join their team, and it can be fun to play the underdog. The win rate doesn't actually matter. Basically any competitive game should be set up in a match structure such that both teams play aliens and marines an equal amount, and the team that pulls the most overall wins wins.
I think it's an incorrect premise that all competitive players are more or less the same skill level. There are some pretty huge gaps in skill between competitive teams
Actually the fact that marines and aliens both win AT ALL in competitive play shows the game has a fairly decent starting balance. If aliens were truly overpowered the only way marines could win would be to significantly outplay the aliens, which does not happen at a competitive level where all players are highly skilled. The win rate would be something like 98%.
Right now, the balance is sufficient that the game is playable. You can play either side and have a chance of winning from the outset. The marines are a bit of an underdog, but you haven't given up the game the moment you join their team, and it can be fun to play the underdog. The win rate doesn't actually matter. Basically any competitive game should be set up in a match structure such that both teams play aliens and marines an equal amount, and the team that pulls the most overall wins wins.
I think it's an incorrect premise that all competitive players are more or less the same skill level. There are some pretty huge gaps in skill between competitive teams
That suggests people competing at a professional level who have no real business doing so. With all players in the 99th percentile how much real room do you think there is to improve between them?
I should probably clarify, when I think of "competitive play" I think at a professional level. Only the best of the best need apply, and most of them even are still turned down. Surly any level can be competitive, someone could host a tournament between 8 randomly selected teams from the forums here and call it a competition, they could even add a cash prize and call it professional, but then surely there are immense gulfs of skill between many of us.
That's the issue with pub play. The balance doesn't really even matter there so long as it's not completely one sided (as long as marines CAN win), the match is almost guaranteed to be decided by whichever team gets the (much) better players, hence why pub play is so much closer to 50/50 than professional play where that's not supposed to happen.
second of all, 12 v 12 is horrible for balance (incredibly marine favored)
people also forget that there's huge skill differences even among competitive teams. A team like archaea basically never loses as marines. Is that a result of them being so much better than everyone else, an actual race imbalance, map imbalances, or combinations thereof?
Fair enough, that's even worse imo then. And as far as 12 v 12 being heavily marine balanced, that's completely false. I have more experience playing and watching 12 v 12 then probably anyone on this board, and I can tell you without a doubt it's not overbalanced towards marines one bit, if anything it does certainly bring them up to par against a good alien team. A coordinated 12 player alien team is a force to be reckoned with both early and late game, as is a 12 player marine team. I've seen sooooo many epic games 12 v 12 there's no way I could count them all.
Competetive players are humans too. Yes, they can be extremly skilled "professionals" but saying there can't be much of a difference between them is strange. Do you know of any sports where the champion of a league is not decisivly beating the teams facing relegation? That would be a dreamworld, where every football game has the suspense of a world championship/superbowl final (pick your football).
This post was of course directed towards sotanaht.
I'm fully aware there can be huge skill gaps between competitive players and teams. But there's no comparison between competitive players and people who've only been playing for a month coming in on a pub server. That's more the point I was making on my earlier comments when I said skill and teamwork should be a moot point.
Sadly, this is still a game-in-progress. The release was rushed.... promises had to be fulfilled... a lot of features still aren't implemented so don't get too worked up about balance; it will change with every new feature.
The release was rushed? I'm pretty sure this game was in development for like 6 years or something along those lines. ALL games are always a work in progress. That's pretty much stating the obvious as I can't think of any game, ever, that has come out as a truly completed product. And as far as features still to be implemented, that's the kind of things to keep people playing, I have no doubt it was planned exactly that way.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
All games these days are 'work in progress'.
I have no recent multiplayer game which does not receive updates. Old games also received loads of patches.
Lack of a patch / update does not point out a good game, but a faulty one. Even those games had horrid bugs, but they did not get fixed.
@gnoarch: You cant compare this to SC2, in early SC2 Terrans were only favoured in the lower skill segments while the pros had pretty even balance. And they introduced stuff like supply depot before barracks pretty early afaik.
Actually I think there are plenty of similarities in how SC2 and NS2 work in terms of balance and post-release development in general. I can go more into detail if necessary, but it's going to be a long write and probably halfway off-topic here.
While I do think that SC2 is pretty marvellously balanced considering the way it's built, I also hope UWE can do a bit more graceful of a job with NS2. The resoucres and time Blizzard put into SC2 aren't exactly available to UWE all the way.
Current NS2Stats.org for build 238/239 only, shows public aliens win 58%, that is not too bad. it went down. Competitive wins, 65%, also went down. A bit.
My stats still blow of course: 25 games, aliens won 19 of them. I am at an 80% alien win ratio. The game is competely broken with the experience I am having. Whatever. Give me a server where marines win a game or two and I will favorite it.
You should also learn that play-testers do not get to have any say in balancing the game. They're there to play in-house builds to test stability and have tea together in their clubhouse. That's it.
To clarify:
A) When something is painfully obvious that it will break balance, we scream and do have a say. If its anything less, the feedback comes from those many other sources that Flayra blogged about on the main page with visuals included, a few weeks ago. Our primary mission is definitely bugs, but occasionally we are asked for feedback, and of course we are constantly having our own discussions in the internal forums.
B)Tequila, not tea. pssh
That's how it was when I PT'd NS1. You will be asked- Just don't be shocked when it's ignored.
Fair enough, that's even worse imo then. And as far as 12 v 12 being heavily marine balanced, that's completely false. I have more experience playing and watching 12 v 12 then probably anyone on this board, and I can tell you without a doubt it's not overbalanced towards marines one bit, if anything it does certainly bring them up to par against a good alien team. A coordinated 12 player alien team is a force to be reckoned with both early and late game, as is a 12 player marine team. I've seen sooooo many epic games 12 v 12 there's no way I could count them all.
12v12 is pretty marine favored, since it becomes much easier to egglock aliens early. However, that presumes that the marines have some minimal level of accuracy (like hitting at least 10% of their shots). Any marine team that can't do this is going to lose no matter what advantage they get.
Comments
What do you want? Do you think they have the balance solution but just withhold the changes?
No, they are making incremental changes vice you risk imbalance towards marines if you do too many changes at once.
Don't forget this game is only a few months old (as far as being widely available).
However I do feel aliens are able to harass res nodes much easier and more effectively than marines. 2 skulks can quickly cross the map and bring down a node.
Aliens can dictate the pace much better esp with gorge bile bomb coordination. they are able to dictate actions to the marines. They know they will either beacon or sacrifice the main base. Once beaconed just crush the expansion.
No one has said it is so...?
This should be the minimum, having such a huge numbers of players in every game/server that have no idea what to do just kills the fun for everyone involved.
NS 1 was way more balanced than NS 2 ever will be at this rate, yet somehow UWE has not made that analysis and come to the understanding that some big changes are needed in the way aliens gather and use their resources.
Having said that, yes, there's still work to be done imo. I feel alien expansion is a bit too easy in comparison to marine expansion, and that maybe the gorge should be more of a necessary factor in building structures (especially harvesters) rather than a negligible catalyst (I might be wrong, but I wonder how it would affect the pub games). But the constant moaning is getting more on my nerves than the skewed win/lose rates.
INB4 "CENSORSHIP", LOL.
Really, ha! I'm the troll in a deliberately negative thread that is just there to accuse UWE of something ridiculous? Right after they released 2 updates on the same day?
Again, this is a masturbatory thread of negativity.
Take his threads as a grain of salt.
He's right that some balancing is definitely needed, personally I think marines are fine, but that the entire alien mechanic of not needing to scout, and having no risk to throwing life away (as a skulk) or throwing life away late game, because of TRes drops, makes aliens able to simply play as over powered, and not as the sneaky little devils they are supposed to be, because what's the risk?
Check your filters on Builds included also competitive or public.
What UWE is worried about is that current balance problems might be a result of performance and hitreg issues that will gradually improve over time. They might be right, but I wish they would consider making shorter-term changes to at least alleviate the symptoms. Worst case scenario they might need to be reverted later, no big deal. Aliens have had the upper hand for months which is far too long to hold out for the perfect solution IMO. I don't think people will flip out if marines end up being a bit too strong for a little while.
I think the 70/30ish ratio in competitive is more due to the 8v8 setup they run. I know that's the ideal teamsize and all that in their minds and probably in practice too as far as actually fielding that many players competitively. But like I said, I just feel the game plays much more balanced at 12v12. There's several reasons for it, such as having more marines available for pressuring/ninjaing and I think the more the number of players scale in a fire fight the more the advantage meter sways towards the marine winning it, skill levels aside. Skill and teamwork should be a moot point there since we're talking competitive anyway, outside of some teams just being more skilled and having better teamwork.
A) When something is painfully obvious that it will break balance, we scream and do have a say. If its anything less, the feedback comes from those many other sources that Flayra blogged about on the main page with visuals included, a few weeks ago. Our primary mission is definitely bugs, but occasionally we are asked for feedback, and of course we are constantly having our own discussions in the internal forums.
B)Tequila, not tea. pssh
second of all, 12 v 12 is horrible for balance (incredibly marine favored)
people also forget that there's huge skill differences even among competitive teams. A team like archaea basically never loses as marines. Is that a result of them being so much better than everyone else, an actual race imbalance, map imbalances, or combinations thereof?
Right now, the balance is sufficient that the game is playable. You can play either side and have a chance of winning from the outset. The marines are a bit of an underdog, but you haven't given up the game the moment you join their team, and it can be fun to play the underdog. The win rate doesn't actually matter. Basically any competitive game should be set up in a match structure such that both teams play aliens and marines an equal amount, and the team that pulls the most overall wins wins.
That suggests people competing at a professional level who have no real business doing so. With all players in the 99th percentile how much real room do you think there is to improve between them?
I should probably clarify, when I think of "competitive play" I think at a professional level. Only the best of the best need apply, and most of them even are still turned down. Surly any level can be competitive, someone could host a tournament between 8 randomly selected teams from the forums here and call it a competition, they could even add a cash prize and call it professional, but then surely there are immense gulfs of skill between many of us.
That's the issue with pub play. The balance doesn't really even matter there so long as it's not completely one sided (as long as marines CAN win), the match is almost guaranteed to be decided by whichever team gets the (much) better players, hence why pub play is so much closer to 50/50 than professional play where that's not supposed to happen.
Fair enough, that's even worse imo then. And as far as 12 v 12 being heavily marine balanced, that's completely false. I have more experience playing and watching 12 v 12 then probably anyone on this board, and I can tell you without a doubt it's not overbalanced towards marines one bit, if anything it does certainly bring them up to par against a good alien team. A coordinated 12 player alien team is a force to be reckoned with both early and late game, as is a 12 player marine team. I've seen sooooo many epic games 12 v 12 there's no way I could count them all.
This post was of course directed towards sotanaht.
I have no recent multiplayer game which does not receive updates. Old games also received loads of patches.
Lack of a patch / update does not point out a good game, but a faulty one. Even those games had horrid bugs, but they did not get fixed.
Actually I think there are plenty of similarities in how SC2 and NS2 work in terms of balance and post-release development in general. I can go more into detail if necessary, but it's going to be a long write and probably halfway off-topic here.
While I do think that SC2 is pretty marvellously balanced considering the way it's built, I also hope UWE can do a bit more graceful of a job with NS2. The resoucres and time Blizzard put into SC2 aren't exactly available to UWE all the way.
My stats still blow of course: 25 games, aliens won 19 of them. I am at an 80% alien win ratio. The game is competely broken with the experience I am having. Whatever. Give me a server where marines win a game or two and I will favorite it.
That's how it was when I PT'd NS1. You will be asked- Just don't be shocked when it's ignored.