Why Mineshaft doesn't work for aliens.
Know pain
Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157674Members
Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157674Members
Why aliens have a harder time on this map consists of 2 points. Well 2 in 1, deposit. Many times deposit is the key holding factor in most games along with central. If one holds one then many times they hold the other. Marines can shoot thru walls but aliens can’t, well the gorge can but that’s another story.
Deposit can be arced from 2 different places where the aliens have to go a long way around to get to the arcs.
<img src="http://imageshack.us/a/img822/1967/siegea.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Deposit can be arced from 2 different places where the aliens have to go a long way around to get to the arcs.
<img src="http://imageshack.us/a/img822/1967/siegea.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Comments
More open = less cover for aliens = marines killing you well before you can do anything.
<b>EDIT:</b> This map also has the least amount of vent cover/transport.
Getting an armory up in cavern in the first minutes of the game is GG.
I still dont understand why they are hives that can be shot withouth exposing yourself a bit ( at least getting inside the hive room ).
Containment in Refinery and Sub Access in Summit should also be rethought
It almost got aliens a comeback in a game I was comming as marines recently, and it completely decimated us in one. You can sneak forward shifts very close to every single tech point from central drilling.
EDIT: Note that I didn't say having to control central drilling was a good thing. I just said that it's the crux of winning the map, every single time.
Marines can just let Aliens take whatever hives they want, and lock down central. The other hives won't be up much longer after that point unless somehow the aliens got Xenocide and Bilebomb by that point. That's almost impossible though :(
By "free" you mean the most easily and often harassed nodes in the game. Crusher and Cavern NEVER survive a game, I'm lucky to even really get a positive return on them.
In pubs, I often see marines starting in Ops go for Deposit and Central, so it's easy enough just to take repair and win the game that way. If they start repair it's usually a much tougher game because it becomes impossible to hold crusher and cavern and deposit becomes absolutely necessary.
The real problem with this map though isn't the ability to arc deposit, it's the ability to simultaneously arc deposit while holding the double res. Condensing almost all the marines effort to a single point on the map is just too much.
Not if the marines have Repair. One of the reasons I like to have repair myself is so that marines can't just walk straight through cart tunnel and kill half my res. If I'm not commanding I usually have to make it my primary duty to personally defend cavern and crusher since no one else ever does.
The ARC-position from central to Deposit has to go, yes. Or it needs a ventilation shaft from Deposit to Central so aliens can react to this threat. I think I like that second solution more.
If Aliens started in Sorting, Marines can deny Deposit very easily from Central Drilling/The Gap, take over Cave in the meantime if Aliens are not organized at all (this shouldn't happen with decent players, though, since the fact that Marines hold repair is enough to tell they will be going for Cave soon-ish), and keep killing Crusher; that res node died more than 6 times the last time I khamm'd on Mineshaft, and I agree that it's very easy for Marines to harass it repeatedly but that is actually okay in my opinion considering its favorable position in between Cave and Sorting.
If Aliens started in Cave, well they are in a world of pain. Marines can just shoot the hive from Cavern with little trouble and Aliens will have a very hard time defending, which is something that should never ever happen in Natural Selection. Marines should be in danger when they attack the hive, simply by having to actually be in the room or stand in the doorway to see it. This isn't exactly the case if Marines attack from Cavern, since the LOS from Cavern is huge. If Aliens didn't counter attack and if Marines have Exos at this point they can mow down the hive in seconds from Cavern without taking any risks whatsoever. Bilebomb Gorges can't reach Exos that attack from Cavern, if they do they are extremely exposed anyway. It's possible for Aliens to recover from that though, but it's hard.
However, like @_Necro_ said, Aliens can easily defend Crusher/Central/Cave with well-placed Shifts. The last time I khamm'd I made sure to put some in there, and we defended these crucial areas with ease. It's also pretty easy to harass Pilot Drill overall. However the Marine team was very good and my players were overconfident, disorganized and kept losing lifeforms, and the Marines eventually killed Cave using the very example I gave above (with one Exo and several JPs), and ARC'd Deposit from The Gap in the meantime.
Also, taking the southern RT in Central as a Khamm is extremely tough because of the catwalk above it and how the cyst mechanic works, and I'd like to see that fixed in some way in the future.
Looking at that map makes me actually realize how few of any ventilation that the aliens have to make use of. NS2 already has way less, but this map is sort of a joke for it.
Add strategy and choice to the game.
Shades countering ARCs is another topic entirely.
They are deeply related, in the following way.
If the marines are sieging from your "typical" siege spot, shades will be helpful, but ultimate you would probably be better off with crag or shift. This is because shades block scans, but not line of sight, which marines can easily get if they are sieging from a location 5 seconds away.
On the other hand, your atypical long distance siege spots, as can be seen in central, would be almost entirely countered by a shade, as no marines would be able to get line of sight, and if they did, they would be killed and have a very long walk back.
I just want more situations where structures the alien commander chooses and places actually have a strategic impact on the game. More variance in siege locations plz.
A big mistake I often see Aliens doing is ignoring Repair and focusing on Deposit, even after 10 minutes of unsuccessful attacks.
Deposit is VERY hard to attack, only one narrow entrance with additional blockades from geometry and Marine structures.
Repair, on the other hand, is wide open and easy to attack for Aliens. Additionally, Aliens having Repair poses a constant threat of base rush to Operations for the Marines, so whenever they go out of Deposit with Exos or ARCs (to go for Sorting, which can be very effectively defended with the help of a few Gorges; or for Central) just rush Operations. And Repair is ARC-safe.
TLDR: Ignore Deposit, get Repair. It's the better Hive.
On a more serious. Yes, this map is kinda a joke as aliens, if you are playing against competent marines.