Do We Still Need Glancing Blows?
gio
Join Date: 2012-08-14 Member: 155618Members
Join Date: 2012-08-14 Member: 155618Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Or, has performance reached a satisfying level?</div>So, I was thinking about how glancing blows were a nice temporary fix for lacking hitreg and performance, but we've come along way since then.
The skill ceiling for base marines includes aiming and tracking, positioning and map awareness (not exhaustive).
For the skulk, they need all of that minus a good portion of the aiming and tracking. The quality of the initiation seems to be more important in securing the kill. Once you're in melee range, you just need to move your mouse a little while holding down m1.
I'm not saying it's a huge imbalancing factor, but can we agree that skulk is a bit easy to play right now? If not removing it totally, could we lower the damage and proc range?
Just trying to start some conversation and ideas. Maybe it is still a really good idea, but could be a variable set by servers that deal with high pings and low performance?
The skill ceiling for base marines includes aiming and tracking, positioning and map awareness (not exhaustive).
For the skulk, they need all of that minus a good portion of the aiming and tracking. The quality of the initiation seems to be more important in securing the kill. Once you're in melee range, you just need to move your mouse a little while holding down m1.
I'm not saying it's a huge imbalancing factor, but can we agree that skulk is a bit easy to play right now? If not removing it totally, could we lower the damage and proc range?
Just trying to start some conversation and ideas. Maybe it is still a really good idea, but could be a variable set by servers that deal with high pings and low performance?
Comments
The answer for marines is hit registration. If we can get it so that every bullet a marine fires at the skulk model actually causes damage, you'll see how quickly the battles will change.
You misunderstand, he means remove the hits that would be glancing blows. Hits that would be 75 are still 75, hits that would be 50 or 25 are instead just misses.
Tightening the bite cone might be one possible change to increase the skill required for skulks and even things out a bit. I don't think glancing blows should be removed, I'm just suggesting that the cone for them be adjusted.
Instead developers need to tweek any of the many variable out there that make skulk rate so good, like: Bite rate, cone dimensions, hitbox size, walljumping rewards. Damage numbers seem set in stone as the devs seem to like to stay true to ns1.
The important thing is the developers just need to GO AHEAD AND REBALANCE ALREADY. Lerk and onos can stand for a good nerf while marine econ needs a buff (cheaper/easier to get macs?)
No it did not
This is wrong, at the time of the patch, the new 50 and 25 damage bite cones were added in addition the existing 75 damage one: the bite radius only got bigger.
It was in response to aliens being severely under powered at the time and complaints of unnaturally small-feeling bite cones. I feel it is a good mechanic for the game IMO.
It was in response to aliens being severely under powered at the time and complaints of unnaturally small-feeling bite cones. I feel it is a good mechanic for the game IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hm still wrong,
The bite cone was for basically the entire beta smaller but did only 75dmg. Then towards release it got smaller, at which point aliens were getting wrecked as you had to be pretty accurate to hit at all - aka only the 75dmg area of now existed otherwise it was 0.
Then they made it much bigger - even the 25dmg of now was 75, so that was pretty OP.
Then they compromised by making less dmg towards the outer areas and I think its pretty balanced. It had nothing to do with performance issues or anything stated in this thread it was just balancing skulks in general.
I actually really like this mechanic and feel more like it should be in place. "Easy to learn, difficult to master" is the design philosophy that ns2 was supposed to follow and i felt this was more true to it than a straight 75 or 0 hit for the most played class in the game, which is more akin to just "difficult to master".
Now if that new skulk didnt understand that he was only getting 25 damage instead of 75.. then the mechanic fails because its not teaching anything, and it's leniency will be taken as a broken mechanic, i.e. "why do others kill in fewer bites?"
The bite cone was for basically the entire beta smaller but did only 75dmg. Then towards release it got smaller, at which point aliens were getting wrecked as you had to be pretty accurate to hit at all - aka only the 75dmg area of now existed otherwise it was 0.
Then they made it much bigger - even the 25dmg of now was 75, so that was pretty OP.
Then they compromised by making less dmg towards the outer areas and I think its pretty balanced. It had nothing to do with performance issues or anything stated in this thread it was just balancing skulks in general.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing is wrong with what I said, at the time of that patch there was a big deal being made, the devs assured us that the new cones of damage were only added in *addition* to the the existing 75 damage one, and that the 75 damage cone did not get any smaller. Perhaps we are comparing different time segments
They could be a bit better telegraphed though as the damage numbers are not what you tend to focus on in a fight, it took me a while to figure out that it was an actual thing and that my hitreg wasn't broken or something.
Something like a simple hint or something saying 'hey your bites do less damage if they're off centre' would be enough I think. So far as I know it's not documented anywhere in the game.
This.
I expressly stated my concern about having 3 different damage cones in the relatively small cone that previously comprised the skulks hit area. Cory explicitly stated that the 50 and 25 damage cones were being added to the current 75 bite cone, and that it was definitely not being reduces in size.
As for glancing blows, I love them. It can get a little boring knowing that if you are on 50hp, you can survive one ont precisely vun bite, and then you are dead. The variable bite damage adds some flavor and uncertainty.
Changing it now would be one hell of a culture change for alot of players, alot of which don't actually have suggested fps increases.
The fundamental problem goes back to marines' losing the average battle (a marine balance problem), and paying too high a price for losing ground and having to respawn. It's worth talking about what marine players need in order to level the playing field, or, handicapping the aliens to deter expansion.
Anyway, a summary of what I wrote:
Yes, "easy to learn and difficult to master" indeed. However, with marines, there's no "easy to learn." You're thrown in and if you nearly miss your shots against wall-jumping, bunny-hopping, ambushing skulks, you don't get glancing shots with reduced damage. You get nothing.
I am dreaming of glancing blows being completely removed as they used to be (only 75 "full damage" cone left, same on lerk and fade cones). I really think glancing blows (as well as performance, imperfect hitreg, and high inDERPolation) are a large reason of the alien winrates. I know it's anecdotal, but this is my personal experience in the last few weeks: on aliens, I can easily have 2:1 KDR at least, especially when fades come out it gets ridiculous if aliens already have half the map or more, but then I'll struggle to maintain 1:1 as marine on the same "quality" of a team.
It's just too easy to play aliens right now. Also, the glancing blows make attacking in packs just ridiculous IMO. Before, there was a chance a marine could survive 2v1 for a few seconds. Now it's pretty rare that even if the two skulks miss, they'll miss so bad that it won't even be a 50/25 hit. When performance, hitreg, and inDERP are improved, maybe things will change. Until then, I really wish skulks are back to 75/nothing.
I also miss the "para/bite/bite" which some people still do but is not nearly as important as it used to be - and then the importance of armor 1 to disable that technique.
I really think removing glancing bites would deliver better quality games overall, and competitive play would probably be unaffected very little. Is it frustrating to miss bites? Of course. It's also frustrating to miss shots.
NS2 is somewhat light on documentation, but the glancing bite is explained in the tutorial videos.
I disagree. In individual play, aliens start out the game with an immense advantage. They move faster, and they don't have to build, so they can go into an ambushing position very close to the marine start tech point, very often one or two rooms away. The fact is marines have to win the first engagement (or two), just to get to another tech point. That forces marines to be the aggressive team early game. If marines are not aggressive early, it only becomes harder from then on (due to gorges, res domination, infestation, etc.), and they tend to lose.
So, it's a fact that you can't just sit in a long corridor and wait for skulks to attack. Especially early game, that's the easiest way to lose the game. You HAVE to control the infestation spread and the only way to do that is to get places fast and start shooting down gorges, RTs, hives, and cysts. Dumb skulks will attack, yes. Smart skulks will creep around in silence and ambush. They have no reason to attack if they win the early game - and by default, in NS2, they start with a speed and build advantage. They already have res domination, and all they have to do is wait for the fade/onos stomp.
That forces marines into ambushes very early in the game - whether it's individual or in a group.
And yes, marines can try to "bait" skulks with 1 marine going in at a time, while 2-3 people shoot at his feet. That's NS2 101. However, what happens in pubs most often is marines just get outplayed. Either so it happens that when 2 marines shoot 1 skulk, they do kill the skulk, but another one easily cleans them out from the side/behind while distracted or reloading, or they just get surrounded or otherwise dominated.
In the end, each marine has to be able to kill a skulk more or less 1v1. You can try to get people together and keep a distance to force ranged weapon domination, but it's more frequent that marines just get outplayed in equal numbers on pubs - and in my opinion some of that is due to skulk just being much easier to play with for some reason. Like I said, I'm not sure if it's the game requiring 4ghz i5/7s to run semi-acceptably, if it's the netcode/hitreg, if it's player skill, or what it is - but that's just what I've noticed.
... and back to thread: I think whatever the reason is, removing glancing bites would make the game require more aiming skill on alien side as well - also, as lerk and fade - and would make the games altogether more interesting.
I do think marines might benefit from a similar "easy to learn" mechanic, though glancing bullets are probably not the answer. If the goal is to give marines with poor twitch skills a consolation prize that gives them a minimum baseline of effectiveness, what about the rifle butt? For instance give it a very generous hitbox, but make sure its damage is low enough that your gun is still better at close range if you're good at aiming.
If it was ~20% smaller, and only dealt 75 and 40, i think it would work better. It'd be a little harder to hit overall, but would do a decent amount of damage for a near miss.
My experience in the game the last few weeks is that playing marines is kind of frustrating and unreliable, whereas with skulks it's just so much easier. Not sure if it's just the aim of pub players that I've seen, but I feel WAY less tension and more power when I play as a skulk compared to when I play as marine. Part of that is that I know if I die as a skulk, maybe the marines won't bother with the infestation and we'll get RTs anyway, whereas if I die as marine, the RTs simply will not be built.
Glancing bullets would be a sad joke, something like putting aim assist into the game. Funny thing is, that's kind of what I see glancing bites/hits as... a way to compensate for poor aiming.
As far as the rifle butt goes, I never use it because it interrupts reload. If you can reload while butting, it might be a little more interesting of a mechanic. As it is, I'd rather switch to the pistol and try to get the final few shots off rather than using a weapon which is worse than the axe. At least the axe swings faster and does the same damage anyway... might as well switch to the axe instead of wasting your time.
I don't know what to do to "fix" rifle butting though. I think the stun effect that it used to have was mildly interesting, but it was removed before I could really try to use it and see if it was worthwhile.
Maybe glancing bites are the way to give marines a similar mechanic?
The additional glancing bite cones were added in a sort of "training wheels" way, with the central cone essentially staying the same size. This provides only benefits for a skulk player, and serves as the easy to learn mechanic.
If the central 75 damage cone was reduced to say, 60% of its current size, with the overall cone size (75, 50 and 25 combined) staying the same, that would provide a form of training wheel for marines in the sense that even small evasive maneuvers would likely result in considerably less damage being taken.
I think the idea is not to put training wheels on the fundamental skill mechanic of a class, and rather use them for the secondary skill mechanic. I believe that the secondary skill for aliens is aim, after movement, and I believe for marines it is the other way around.
didn't it used to be a box? then it became a cone, then we tried out reverse cone (long range bites were awesome that patch lol), and then it ended up with the shape we have now (i dont even know what the shape is anymore)
When you think of the "original" cone, think instead of the cone which is 75 damage all the way through. and has a size which keeps it balanced with respect to common usage against marines. This will obviously always vary, as the game changes, but this is essentially the baseline against which you should compare the modified glancing bite cone.
Then you need to think of a way to change this cone, potentially into separate damage areas of varying angle and size, in such a way that it facilitates different skill levels in different ways.
I would agree that the alien economy is kind of a mess at the moment. Early alien play is essentially either rushing the marine base or securing most of the map and waiting to ambush. Rushes are especially terrible because they force the outcome of the game into an engagement or two, where the defending team is often crippled and continued pressure will make them lose in the long run if they don't lose outright. This tactic works for either side, and occasionally I will find a server where all one team rushes and wins every game. Sometimes it will be marines, sometimes aliens. I think the conclusion of this is that whatever needs to change, it is not glancing blows. Alien economy expanding too fast and a lack of marine playstyle knowledge seem to be greater problems. Although next patch will have games start with a commander, and I think that will help a lot.