I'm having real issues with the fact that whips apparently have mad tech-skills and can prolong time of detonation by 2 seconds when throwing the grenades back. This means it is pointless lobbing grenades in from far away and have them detonate right at the whip base as the whips will add 2 seconds, minimum, to the detonation time and throw them back.
This is found in "Grenade:PrepareToBeWhackedBy(whacker)" <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain' style='height:200px;white-space:pre;overflow:auto'> // Prolong thinktime a bit to give it time to get out of range self.endOfLife = math.max(self.endOfLife, Shared.GetTime() + 2) </div>
I believe this should be removed and all is good..
Whips have been poos, but at times were also golden. Elodea had videos of 4 whip bombard rushes *on non stacked pub servers* (well, as non stacked and public as BETA in Australasia got ...) he had Charlie himself replying with 'oh dear that is a bit much.'
xDragon has it, shoot the cysts. Fire 4 grenades at any whip, stand still and tell me the outcome. Video it, do it 1200 times, I bet you come out with: Whips are awesome. Now try with lmg. Theres nothing wrong with whips being a hard counter when lmgs are 0 res and hard counter whips.
This thread seems one of those "just had a bad game, thought I was going to win but got owned because I got a gl instead of carrying on with lmg like I have been successfully ALL game" threads. COMPLETELY out of context with respect to 'balance.'
And ZEK: sigh. Like you said it can do 3 different things ... obviously placement is important ... otherwise it would be a win button cluster structure.
What if marines had an upgrade that gave them immunity to skulk bites? Would that be balanced? It would have to be researched with tres and purchased with pres, but once bought made the marine immune to skulk bites. However, this immunity does NOT apply to any other weapons. Just skulks, and just the bite weapon.
Since skulks have parasite and leap, that would be balanced right? This wouldn't be a hard counter? Of course it's a hard counter. NO one technology should make another technology obsolete. That's a hard counter.
Hey, if you want to defend the use of this hard counter as 'necessary' for whatever reason, that's cool. This doesn't change the facts whips <b>are </b>a hard counter to GLs, and it doesn't change the fact that Charlie <b>has </b>written that he explicitly wanted to avoid this.
Its hard to be tactful when the same people raise the same points with the same poor understanding of game mechanics. Your views on balance and design are just that - your views/opinions.. Talking like your some kind of demigod that has a greater understanding of everything than everyone else here has really irritated me over time, especially when you can be so far off base.
<!--quoteo(post=2067218:date=Jan 27 2013, 12:04 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 27 2013, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if marines had an upgrade that gave them immunity to skulk bites? Would that be balanced? It would have to be researched with tres and purchased with pres, but once bought made the marine immune to skulk bites. However, this immunity does NOT apply to any other weapons. Just skulks, and just the bite weapon.
Since skulks have parasite and leap, that would be balanced right? This wouldn't be a hard counter? Of course it's a hard counter. NO one technology should make another technology obsolete. That's a hard counter.
Hey, if you want to defend the use of this hard counter as 'necessary' for whatever reason, that's cool. This doesn't change the facts whips <b>are </b>a hard counter to GLs, and it doesn't change the fact that Charlie <b>has </b>written that he explicitly wanted to avoid this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We do...its called NANO. Makes marines able to avoid a % of the damage (and whips throw back a % of the grenades).
If whips worry you then you should stop being a rambo, shoot the cysts (or get team mate to) or if your really scared get some bloody arcs. Sit back with GL and JP's and blow anything up that tries to kill the arcs.
Whips are fine, we have gone through about every incantation we can of them. Aside from teh walls not existing for them at times (which is fixed next patch) the mechanic is working as intended and has provided the best balance we have had. GL'ers need to show some caution and team work, whips no longer serve as marine sympathizers and lob nades deeper into a hive, now they wont ignore walls ;).
<!--quoteo(post=2067226:date=Jan 26 2013, 11:27 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 26 2013, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We do...its called NANO. Makes marines able to avoid a % of the damage (and whips throw back a % of the grenades).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The difference is that NANO doesn't take the % of damage negated and direct it back at the attacker. If the whips only 'disarmed' grenades, that's a different story. In such a case it hasn't made the GL obsolete, it's made it less effective. It's no longer a hard counter, it's a soft counter. See what I did there? <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If whips worry you then you should stop being a rambo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Heh, the whips don't bother me since I never buy GLs. I make a point not to purchase weapons that are decidedly inferior to other weapons. So they're not an issue for me. They are a balance issue though, and they run counter to NS2's game design blueprint.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2067241:date=Jan 26 2013, 07:21 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 26 2013, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067241"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The difference is that NANO doesn't take the % of damage negated and direct it back at the attacker. If the whips only 'disarmed' grenades, that's a different story. In such a case it hasn't made the GL obsolete, it's made it less effective. It's no longer a hard counter, it's a soft counter. See what I did there?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey buddy that seems like subjective guidelines again! :) I like the idea of whips eating a % of the incoming nades and imploding them safely inside themselves.
update: i just checked back through internal logs thinking i lost my mind. So whips whacked 100% of the time and it was OP so it was changed to a % of the time, then it was removed entirely. Then it was put on mature whips only at 100%, then it was made for any typical whip.
The adjustment is missing and i'll report this, as i don't think it was intended. (there goes that subjective guideline for soft or hard counter again hehe)
<!--quoteo(post=2066630:date=Jan 25 2013, 12:49 PM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Jan 25 2013, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries should shoot down Bile Bomb it's only fair right<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, this. Where's the freaking hard counter for bile bomb? Don't anyone dare say welders.
i like to kill the cysts near the whip with my pistol, its the easiest way to kill em, just wait for the infestation to receed then begin GL bombardment
<!--quoteo(post=2067256:date=Jan 27 2013, 12:49 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jan 27 2013, 12:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey buddy that seems like subjective guidelines again! :) I like the idea of whips eating a % of the incoming nades and imploding them safely inside themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I actually don't have a 'real' problem with whips in of themselves. :) It's not that they are OP per se either. They did fill a hole that needed to be filled. However, I also agree with Charlie in that there shouldn't be anything that completely nullifies something else. Like if nano was to absorb 100% of incoming damage, I would be opposed to it since invulnerability is a hard counter. It makes all weapons completely ineffective.
I too like the idea of a whip 'negating' a percentage of incoming grenade spam. The mechanic could be that it 'whips' the grenade at a wall which harmlessly destroys it. The issue is when you take a weapon on one side and not only completely nullify it, but then send the damage back. No one will ever use that weapon in that circumstance.
<!--quoteo(post=2067256:date=Jan 27 2013, 01:49 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jan 27 2013, 01:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey buddy that seems like subjective guidelines again! :) I like the idea of whips eating a % of the incoming nades and imploding them safely inside themselves.
update: i just checked back through internal logs thinking i lost my mind. So whips whacked 100% of the time and it was OP so it was changed to a % of the time, then it was removed entirely. Then it was put on mature whips only at 100%, then it was made for any typical whip.
The adjustment is missing and i'll report this, as i don't think it was intended. (there goes that subjective guideline for soft or hard counter again hehe)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I recall the whips eating grenades being suggested as an alternative to whacking them away, not really fussed as long as we have a way to deal with nade spam that does not do more damage than it prevents. The only issue I see is in relation to how many grenades and how quickly a whip could eat them.
Hmm so there is currently no adjustment and it throws back 100% in exact same direction it came from? Had thought they talked about it not always going exactly back in same direction....but I could be getting muddled with then it was random.
Either way I think I am now then I am an advocate of leaving as is ;) But seriously it has kept the nade spam to a minimum and force some team work for areas where the aliens have spent money on whips. I still see GL's being used but they are not as common as they used to be (which is a good thing) and we are seeing a balanced kit out in most games. If the khamm has covered the map with whips then you have already lost as he has wasted a lot of res, you need 2 per entrance (most rooms have atleast 2) so thats 60 -Tres minimum per room. So if you have 5 rooms thats anywhere from 300 - 375 t-Res spent just on whips. They can be rendered totally useless in seconds by removing infestation or using some arcs, which seems people have forgotten how to use. Arcs are meant to be the tool to help clear out a well protected area which is why they are mobile.
Whips are fine in what they do though I do feel they only exist because of Grenade Launchers which also feel questionable when I start to ask what is their real purpose in game. Mostly because it came from this cool idea that was probably op but was canned and they felt they needed to use it in another watered down form.
Is its only purpose spamming at your team to get enemies off them? Because for 25 pres you will be hard pressed to hit aliens like fades, lerks, and even skulks in addition to avoid harming yourself and that long reloading time. The thing is just not worth it. And even if you do get the whips down and lay waste to the alien base, the flamethrower is better for taking it out. Or a shotgun that can help protect you and deal high damage. Now that I think about it shotguns really do seem like the only viable marine weapon late game.
Then if you happen to buy a GL you got the whips which seem to have a huge force field around them and any grenade that enters it gets sent back no matter where it is.
I read some posts and am seeing that it gets fixed next patch but it was extremely frustrating. Would be a lot better if the whips just neutralized the grenades and not launched them into the user's face at ridiculous angles. Too many downsides to this thing. However, they both really just seem like a cool ideas that were difficult to implement in the game.
Don't know if its been mentioned, but one small detail here may be exacerbating the problem: whips can't be hit by grenades.
Try it. Go up to a whip, stand just out of striking range, and fire grenades right into it. The ones that aren't immediately knocked back will hit the whip and simply fall to the ground, and then the whip hits those ones back as well. Grenades should, as with all other alien structures, explode on contact with a whip.
minor point, bilebombs sometimes don't explode on contact, or explode in mid-vent, for no apparent reason. even though the 3 in front went through just fine, as did the 3 following.
YMICrazy502 thank you for those videos, they show how ridiculous whips coutner GLs.
Whips are what allow aliens to turtle. Good luck breaking an alien fortification with clogs, hydras, crags and whips without arcs. By the time your lmb/shotgun/flamethrowers emptied all their ammo, the aliens will come and eat you.
Also, I dont see the problem of marines sitting outside a hive and shooting grenades inside. If the aliens allow the marines to have a base outside their hive, they should lose. Aliens can defend their locations way too easy and the whip is a major part of the problem.
Compare it to WoLs in ns1. A single marine could take out a lone OC if he had a corner nearby. Major fortifications with OCs and DCs inside hives could only be killed by siege or GLs. Now in ns2, Walls of Lame (as in whip, crap spam) are even easier to build thanks to TRES and GLs are useless...
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
<!--quoteo(post=2067346:date=Jan 27 2013, 01:16 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Jan 27 2013, 01:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->YMICrazy502 thank you for those videos, they show how ridiculous whips coutner GLs.
Whips are what allow aliens to turtle. Good luck breaking an alien fortification with clogs, hydras, crags and whips without arcs. By the time your lmb/shotgun/flamethrowers emptied all their ammo, the aliens will come and eat you.
Also, I dont see the problem of marines sitting outside a hive and shooting grenades inside. If the aliens allow the marines to have a base outside their hive, they should lose. Aliens can defend their locations way too easy and the whip is a major part of the problem.
Compare it to WoLs in ns1. A single marine could take out a lone OC if he had a corner nearby. Major fortifications with OCs and DCs inside hives could only be killed by siege or GLs. Now in ns2, Walls of Lame (as in whip, crap spam) are even easier to build thanks to TRES and GLs are useless...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2067346:date=Jan 27 2013, 01:16 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Jan 27 2013, 01:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->YMICrazy502 thank you for those videos, they show how ridiculous whips coutner GLs.
Whips are what allow aliens to turtle. Good luck breaking an alien fortification with clogs, hydras, crags and whips without arcs. By the time your lmb/shotgun/flamethrowers emptied all their ammo, the aliens will come and eat you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whips are the hard counter to GL's, ARC's are the hard counter to heavy Kharaa fortifications, it's not really that complicated... Or are you suggesting that a 20 Res GL, that can be picked up again and again giving it theoretical unlimited staying power, should be able counter an unlimited amount of Kharaa structures?
Sure thematic-wise it's kinda stupid that the anti-structure weapon gets countered by a structure. But without that you would see Marines rushing and spamming GL to no end, while never ever using ARC's, as it happened in certain beta builds.
But in the "what team has the better turtle tools" contest, Marines win hands down. The Kharaa team could pour hundreds of resources into defenses just to see them get nuked from outside the room with ARC's. Compare that to the effort that the Kharaa team often has to invest to break a 1 TP Marine turtle on certain maps and it's pretty obvious who has the upper hand in that regard.
Btw in NS1 a maxed out (and properly build) WoL with Gorge support could hold it's own against a GL for quite a while.
<!--quoteo(post=2067388:date=Jan 27 2013, 07:59 AM:name=DC_Darkling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DC_Darkling @ Jan 27 2013, 07:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067388"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->15 res arc says hi.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. This is the reason why Aliens can't turtle. Mariens camp in the room next to their base, make an amory block, get an arc-train up and just protect it.
Yeah, whips conter nades. Get a flamer in there and done, get arcs othewise.
Comments
This is found in "Grenade:PrepareToBeWhackedBy(whacker)"
<div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain' style='height:200px;white-space:pre;overflow:auto'>
// Prolong thinktime a bit to give it time to get out of range
self.endOfLife = math.max(self.endOfLife, Shared.GetTime() + 2)
</div>
I believe this should be removed and all is good..
xDragon has it, shoot the cysts. Fire 4 grenades at any whip, stand still and tell me the outcome. Video it, do it 1200 times, I bet you come out with: Whips are awesome. Now try with lmg. Theres nothing wrong with whips being a hard counter when lmgs are 0 res and hard counter whips.
This thread seems one of those "just had a bad game, thought I was going to win but got owned because I got a gl instead of carrying on with lmg like I have been successfully ALL game" threads. COMPLETELY out of context with respect to 'balance.'
And ZEK: sigh. Like you said it can do 3 different things ... obviously placement is important ... otherwise it would be a win button cluster structure.
Since skulks have parasite and leap, that would be balanced right? This wouldn't be a hard counter? Of course it's a hard counter. NO one technology should make another technology obsolete. That's a hard counter.
Hey, if you want to defend the use of this hard counter as 'necessary' for whatever reason, that's cool. This doesn't change the facts whips <b>are </b>a hard counter to GLs, and it doesn't change the fact that Charlie <b>has </b>written that he explicitly wanted to avoid this.
Since skulks have parasite and leap, that would be balanced right? This wouldn't be a hard counter? Of course it's a hard counter. NO one technology should make another technology obsolete. That's a hard counter.
Hey, if you want to defend the use of this hard counter as 'necessary' for whatever reason, that's cool. This doesn't change the facts whips <b>are </b>a hard counter to GLs, and it doesn't change the fact that Charlie <b>has </b>written that he explicitly wanted to avoid this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We do...its called NANO. Makes marines able to avoid a % of the damage (and whips throw back a % of the grenades).
If whips worry you then you should stop being a rambo, shoot the cysts (or get team mate to) or if your really scared get some bloody arcs.
Sit back with GL and JP's and blow anything up that tries to kill the arcs.
Whips are fine, we have gone through about every incantation we can of them. Aside from teh walls not existing for them at times (which is fixed next patch) the mechanic is working as intended and has provided the best balance we have had.
GL'ers need to show some caution and team work, whips no longer serve as marine sympathizers and lob nades deeper into a hive, now they wont ignore walls ;).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If whips worry you then you should stop being a rambo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Heh, the whips don't bother me since I never buy GLs. I make a point not to purchase weapons that are decidedly inferior to other weapons. So they're not an issue for me. They are a balance issue though, and they run counter to NS2's game design blueprint.
Hey buddy that seems like subjective guidelines again! :)
I like the idea of whips eating a % of the incoming nades and imploding them safely inside themselves.
update: i just checked back through internal logs thinking i lost my mind. So whips whacked 100% of the time and it was OP so it was changed to a % of the time, then it was removed entirely. Then it was put on mature whips only at 100%, then it was made for any typical whip.
The adjustment is missing and i'll report this, as i don't think it was intended. (there goes that subjective guideline for soft or hard counter again hehe)
Not sure what the argument is?
Oversimplify much?
Yeah, this. Where's the freaking hard counter for bile bomb? Don't anyone dare say welders.
I too like the idea of a whip 'negating' a percentage of incoming grenade spam. The mechanic could be that it 'whips' the grenade at a wall which harmlessly destroys it. The issue is when you take a weapon on one side and not only completely nullify it, but then send the damage back. No one will ever use that weapon in that circumstance.
I like the idea of whips eating a % of the incoming nades and imploding them safely inside themselves.
update: i just checked back through internal logs thinking i lost my mind. So whips whacked 100% of the time and it was OP so it was changed to a % of the time, then it was removed entirely. Then it was put on mature whips only at 100%, then it was made for any typical whip.
The adjustment is missing and i'll report this, as i don't think it was intended. (there goes that subjective guideline for soft or hard counter again hehe)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I recall the whips eating grenades being suggested as an alternative to whacking them away, not really fussed as long as we have a way to deal with nade spam that does not do more damage than it prevents.
The only issue I see is in relation to how many grenades and how quickly a whip could eat them.
Hmm so there is currently no adjustment and it throws back 100% in exact same direction it came from?
Had thought they talked about it not always going exactly back in same direction....but I could be getting muddled with then it was random.
Either way I think I am now then I am an advocate of leaving as is ;)
But seriously it has kept the nade spam to a minimum and force some team work for areas where the aliens have spent money on whips.
I still see GL's being used but they are not as common as they used to be (which is a good thing) and we are seeing a balanced kit out in most games.
If the khamm has covered the map with whips then you have already lost as he has wasted a lot of res, you need 2 per entrance (most rooms have atleast 2) so thats 60 -Tres minimum per room. So if you have 5 rooms thats anywhere from 300 - 375 t-Res spent just on whips.
They can be rendered totally useless in seconds by removing infestation or using some arcs, which seems people have forgotten how to use.
Arcs are meant to be the tool to help clear out a well protected area which is why they are mobile.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaBVFxPzJv4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaBVFxPzJv4</a>
Is its only purpose spamming at your team to get enemies off them? Because for 25 pres you will be hard pressed to hit aliens like fades, lerks, and even skulks in addition to avoid harming yourself and that long reloading time. The thing is just not worth it. And even if you do get the whips down and lay waste to the alien base, the flamethrower is better for taking it out. Or a shotgun that can help protect you and deal high damage. Now that I think about it shotguns really do seem like the only viable marine weapon late game.
Then if you happen to buy a GL you got the whips which seem to have a huge force field around them and any grenade that enters it gets sent back no matter where it is.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-bD3VaU-2c" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-bD3VaU-2c</a>
I read some posts and am seeing that it gets fixed next patch but it was extremely frustrating. Would be a lot better if the whips just neutralized the grenades and not launched them into the user's face at ridiculous angles. Too many downsides to this thing. However, they both really just seem like a cool ideas that were difficult to implement in the game.
Try it. Go up to a whip, stand just out of striking range, and fire grenades right into it. The ones that aren't immediately knocked back will hit the whip and simply fall to the ground, and then the whip hits those ones back as well. Grenades should, as with all other alien structures, explode on contact with a whip.
Hahaha!
Whips are what allow aliens to turtle. Good luck breaking an alien fortification with clogs, hydras, crags and whips without arcs. By the time your lmb/shotgun/flamethrowers emptied all their ammo, the aliens will come and eat you.
Also, I dont see the problem of marines sitting outside a hive and shooting grenades inside. If the aliens allow the marines to have a base outside their hive, they should lose. Aliens can defend their locations way too easy and the whip is a major part of the problem.
Compare it to WoLs in ns1. A single marine could take out a lone OC if he had a corner nearby. Major fortifications with OCs and DCs inside hives could only be killed by siege or GLs. Now in ns2, Walls of Lame (as in whip, crap spam) are even easier to build thanks to TRES and GLs are useless...
Whips are what allow aliens to turtle. Good luck breaking an alien fortification with clogs, hydras, crags and whips without arcs. By the time your lmb/shotgun/flamethrowers emptied all their ammo, the aliens will come and eat you.
Also, I dont see the problem of marines sitting outside a hive and shooting grenades inside. If the aliens allow the marines to have a base outside their hive, they should lose. Aliens can defend their locations way too easy and the whip is a major part of the problem.
Compare it to WoLs in ns1. A single marine could take out a lone OC if he had a corner nearby. Major fortifications with OCs and DCs inside hives could only be killed by siege or GLs. Now in ns2, Walls of Lame (as in whip, crap spam) are even easier to build thanks to TRES and GLs are useless...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
15 res arc says hi.
Whips are what allow aliens to turtle. Good luck breaking an alien fortification with clogs, hydras, crags and whips without arcs. By the time your lmb/shotgun/flamethrowers emptied all their ammo, the aliens will come and eat you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whips are the hard counter to GL's, ARC's are the hard counter to heavy Kharaa fortifications, it's not really that complicated...
Or are you suggesting that a 20 Res GL, that can be picked up again and again giving it theoretical unlimited staying power, should be able counter an unlimited amount of Kharaa structures?
Sure thematic-wise it's kinda stupid that the anti-structure weapon gets countered by a structure. But without that you would see Marines rushing and spamming GL to no end, while never ever using ARC's, as it happened in certain beta builds.
But in the "what team has the better turtle tools" contest, Marines win hands down. The Kharaa team could pour hundreds of resources into defenses just to see them get nuked from outside the room with ARC's. Compare that to the effort that the Kharaa team often has to invest to break a 1 TP Marine turtle on certain maps and it's pretty obvious who has the upper hand in that regard.
Btw in NS1 a maxed out (and properly build) WoL with Gorge support could hold it's own against a GL for quite a while.
This. This is the reason why Aliens can't turtle. Mariens camp in the room next to their base, make an amory block, get an arc-train up and just protect it.
Yeah, whips conter nades. Get a flamer in there and done, get arcs othewise.